SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq

This is a very significant story, a member of the "elite of the elite" SAS Regiment, has quit over the "illegal" tactics of the US troops". Antother indication of what a mess Iraq really is.



Read the full article (MUST READ!)


The Pentagon keeps saying everything is well, and that the good news doesn't come out... morans.

Read THIS opinion article as well.



[edit on 3-12-2006 by Zion Mainframe]

I don't think that the views of a few disollusioned soldiers exactly qualifies as a 'fatal divide at the heart of the Coalition'. Every volunteer army has it's deserters and conscientious objectors, but at the end of the day, these people (a minority) choose to take up this line of work and take the pay that comes with it; it's a bit rich, if you ask me, that just because they one day find themselves in a shooting war that they cry about it and ask to go home.

Good story.
I think that most soldiers have morals. Some are voicing their 's now, where as some others are fearful of incriminations.

What i do find strange though, is the fact that this SAS soldier has been allowed to have his photograph made public. I am assuming that the picture with the story is this guy?

Don't forget this is an SAS soldier, not just a national guard private, that had quit. You don't join the SAS that easily, this is the first time an SAS soldier has refused to fight.

SAS are no spring chickens and they know about being brutal when necessary. Some just know how to see when it is going too far and for him to speak up says alot of what might be taking place with what i like to call the redneck gangsta rap mentality some US troops have. Makes him even a more noble warrior for speaking up.

Originally posted by Bikereddie
Good story.
I think that most soldiers have morals. Some are voicing their 's now, where as some others are fearful of incriminations.

What i do find strange though, is the fact that this SAS soldier has been allowed to have his photograph made public. I am assuming that the picture with the story is this guy?

Maybe he was in operations or one of the administrative wings.

Originally posted by Lanton
Maybe he was in operations or one of the administrative wings.

Why don't you read the article first...

...
It immediately brought to an end Mr Griffin's exemplary, eight-year career in which he also served with the Parachute Regiment, taking part in operations in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan.

He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.


HMmmmmmmmm thats interesting, as alot of Nazi went over to USA to run away from Russians didn't they, let alone the hundreds of thousands that were never accounted for and that was after the head count of pows, mia, the dead, etc etc thats a lot of missing Nazi's out there were and what did they do in the past 60 years is of interest i think to a fair few governments i bet, don't forget they had money and people to do a fair few things i am betting.

Who knows maybe they weeded their way into some of the Governments of the world.

Theres also that building in the USA thats shaped like a swastika its on google earth and theres topics on it here.


Maybe the 4th Reich is the new world order who knows eh, with the middle east slowly being taken over or decimated, and possible WW3 round the corner, lets hope not.

Also anyone here think that bird flu is a bio wep test to see the spread rate of infection?

They didn't cite one example of "illegal" activities by the Americans. In fact, they continued to quote the word "illegal" as if it had some other meaning other than illegal. Sure, you are going to have your conscientious objectors in any volunteer army, this is just one of them. I hardly accept this one individual's rather vague accounting as an accurate description of events occuring on the ground over there.

Originally posted by kozmo
They didn't cite one example of "illegal" activities by the Americans.

Well he's a member of the special forces, so he's perfectly able to discrible the ongoings in Iraq:

He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured.

" Sure, you are going to have your conscientious objectors in any volunteer army"

The SAS is the elite of the elite, and is not just another branch of the armed forces. He told SAS commanders at Hereford that he could not take part in a war which he regarded as "illegal".

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
Well he's a member of the special forces, so he's perfectly able to discrible the ongoings in Iraq:

He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured.

Oh, Come on! "Most probably" tortured. You mean, he has no idea but is simply speculating something. Again, no proof whatsoever. Night-time raids are not illegal, arresting suspected terrorists is not illegal.

Don't you think that even "elite" soldiers have political opinions? Isn't is possible (In fact, likely) that that is what we are dealing with here? If the Americans were regularly engaging in "illegal tactics" I'd suspect that there would be a good bit more news on the topic. Simple logic dictates that I be skeptical of this report.

'P' company training is brutal and sorts the men from the boys, and makes the Parachute regiment the rock solid hard as granite fighting force that it is.
SAS selection takes it up ten levels in both mental and physical ways.

This mans past both - That makes him a dedicated tough professional fighter - The fact that he didn't get court martialed says it all really. Hes gone to the boss, said no, and they have let him walk.

I applaude his courage in speaking out. notice he said he didn't want to work with the American forces - Not that he didn't want to fight at all. A very brave man.

Originally posted by MadGreebo
I applaude his courage in speaking out. notice he said he didn't want to work with the American forces - Not that he didn't want to fight at all. A very brave man.

As a child in 1963, I had an older cousin visit. He had been a colonel in the Green Berets, talked of parachuting into Thailand and speaking Thai, but he said he had decided to leave the army because of corruption, by us! My own father, a decorated WW2 patriotic veteran would share stories about his time in Europe, most interesting, a few of heroic proportions, a few of disgust at the military. (He did sadly say one evening during the VietNam era, that if he had sons he would take them out and shoot them before he would let them go to war--that, my friends is how bad war can be.) Our soldiers serve at the request of politicians. They fight when and where told to. It is up to our leaders to choose the right mission. Sadly, our current leaders chose to misuse and abuse our military. Until we beat our swords to plowshares, we must support our soldiers, but, no, we do not have to support their mission!

Our soldiers were sent to fight in Iraq by inept leaders (who themselves had never tasted war). War is hell, not a cakewalk (unless whenever the music stops, you blow up a participant!) The song, the Big Muddy, sums up what is going on--"and the big fool says to push on."

We, as Powell warned us, have broken Iraq. Our best and brightest are paying the price with their lives. Our national hubris years ago led us to change Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye to When Johnny Comes Marching Home.

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe

1) This is a very significant story, a member of the "elite of the elite" SAS Regiment, has quit over the "illegal" tactics of the US troops". Antother indication of what a mess Iraq really is.

2) An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

3) He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

1) Some details about these so-alled " illegal tactics " ?

2) How s.... He just said his former SAS fellows are then using illegal tactics as the Americans are supposed to do. Quite embarrassing if you ak me.

3) This the part I don't really like. I see only 3 options :

a) They see them as "untermenschen" because US soldiers in irak, black or white or yellow, are all racist. ( or may be just some are and some not. Let me guess, in such case, the racist are gonna be white and the non-racist are gonna be the " non-white " right ? )

b) They see them as "untermenschen" because that's, in fact, what they really are. Once again, PC speaking, it would be really embarrassing for everyones.

c) He's just lying and said that just to have the media focus on him and help him VS his hierarchy who's not, I bet 1 million $, very pleased with him.

[edit on 12-3-2006 by ultra_phoenix]

ultra_phoenix you are possibly the nastiest person I have come across on ATS.

The Iraqis are human just like you and I. Do you know what that word actually means? Sub-Human. Untermenschen is possibly the one cause of so many deaths in ww2. They saw the enemy as sub human and in no way shape or form fit to live.

For you to hold that view is absolutley beyond contempt - An iraqi mother cries just as hard when her son dies as when a US or UK mother.

Because of views like yours so much wrong is being commited - Oh and I guess you say that abu Garihb prison pictures are ok as well? lead a prisoner around on a leash shall we? Sorry. you disgust me.

Remeber Ultra, US/ UK chose to invade, the Iraqis then had no choice but to defend. We can all go home, their homes are the battle ground.

[edit on 12-3-2006 by MadGreebo]

Originally posted by MadGreebo
ultra_phoenix you are possibly the nastiest person I have come across on ATS.

The Iraqis are human just like you and I. Do you know what that word actually means? Sub-Human. Untermenschen is possibly the one cause of so many deaths in ww2. They saw the enemy as sub human and in no way shape or form fit to live.

For you to hold that view is absolutley beyond contempt - An iraqi mother cries just as hard when her son dies as when a US or UK mother.

Because of views like yours so much wrong is being commited - Oh and I guess you say that abu Garihb prison pictures are ok as well? lead a prisoner around on a leash shall we? Sorry. you disgust me.

Imagine you're fighting in Iraq, obstentially to help the people and ensure security in the country. Imagine, again, that you can't trust the local police (or the Iraqi national guard) because you know that as soon as you see a police car that they're acting as spotters for the insurgents (and that you're gonna get mortared because of it) or that supposedly there's an Iraqi national guard unit on your right flank in a blocking position (preventing the insurgents from flanking your unit) only for you to find out that that unit just vanished into the night (either retreating to the safety of an army compound or selling off their kit to the insurgents and melting into the local populous).

Or how about you're trying to help rebuild one of the local village's schools, only to find that the village elders (leaders) are doing recce work for the insurgents on the Coalition soldiers and/or contracters working to rebuild the school.

Ya see, to the average John Doe doing his stint in Iraq, it's almost as if the Iraqi people don't want to live in a safe and Democratic country. It's almost as if they pine for the days of Saddam, who ruled the country with an iron-fist. Sadly, many Iraqi's don't know their arse from their elbow; they're just trying to eek out an existance, which means that they've got to appease the insurgents AND the Coalition troops.

why does he not given a single example of these "dozens of illegal acts" Thats a pretty vague statement and hes gotten the press coverage to say extacly what this illegal acts are.

The only thing I can see him mention is "He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers" How does he know these people are innocent? Isnt that the whole point of interrogation to find out if someone is innocent or guilty.

He did say he thought " the Iraq war was illegal" so wouldnt any act during the war be illegal in his eyes.

Its clear this guy does not agree with the reason for the war in the first place many dont and thats IMO why he aint going back its alll illegal to him becuase he sees it as a illegal war to start with.

Unless of course he can go into detail and prove these so called "dozens of illegal acts"

When did war become a nice, fluffy, painless, victimless activity? I know first hand what happens every day in Iraq and I would suggest that you put yourself in the shoes of a soldier or marine that has been there for six months, being shot at on a daily basis. Every time you step outside being met with possible death. Every child, woman, boy or man, the same one that you just gave food or meds to, could be the one that walks up to you smiling with a live grenade. It happens, all day long. Can you imagine if every time you drove to work YOUR car could be blown up by an RPG? If you knew then you could easily understand the frustration and the paranoia that an environment like that creates psychologically. After seeing so much violence, it becomes second nature to you. And because of the fact that you can't tell friendly Iraqi school teacher from insurgent or Al Quaida bomber, you eventually begin to hate and distrust them all. I don't know about the whole Untermenschen nonsense, but do many troops hate Iraqi's in general? Yes they do. It's a war folks. You help those you can but never at the expense of your own life or your unit. This SAS soldier probably had an isolated incident with a few over aggressive types (many coalition UK troops are the same way) and made a call based on his own political agenda. There is inhumanity and bloodshed in any war, Vietnam, WWII, Korea, they all had the same. I guarantee you our troops are treating the Iraqi people better than Saddam and the old regime did. As for treatment of POW's, when was the last time you saw an American cutting off the head of an Iraqi prisoner on live tv? My point is, if you go to war expecting cotton candy, fluffy bunnies and fun and games you will be sorely disappointed. Forget winning the hearts and minds of Iraqi people, these troops just want to make it out alive.

yes but if its operational details he cannot give them out. If its an ongoing conflict he may have to sit on it till he is cleared to give operational details...or maybe he just didn't agree with the war.

Either way, we went there and caused all this. Its our fault that the iraqis have to fight, because no invasion, no insurgents. simple formula really.

Its kind of interesting comming from a SAS member too. These arent exactly boy scouts they do some stuff many would consider illegal like entering countries they aint even at war with yet. They dont even tell you half the stuff these guys do perhaps for good reason.

Anyone eles remember the Iraqi police accusing SAS members of planting bombs in Basra. Not saying its true but it makes you think

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