Simple reason why I'm Anti-Secret Societies/Freemasonry

Originally posted by exjobie
it is one thing to tolerate the faith of others, it is an entirely different thing to pray at an alter with "other gods before you".

I guess you missed my question: Is the God of the Torah or the Koran different from the Christian God? How many omnipotent beings do you know of?

last i checked the torah was part of the Bible. however it predates the story of Christ so i am not sure why a christian would be comfortable with that, we will just call the IANS instead of CHRISTIANS. secondly, when was the koran written? these seem like moot points until you realize that Christ warned us that many will come in his name. i do not let "brothers" dictate my spiritual practices. that is for God to decide. Again, excellent DODGING.

There are plenty of verses that speak about not judging others as you are not God and about tolerance. You are a pick and choose Christian. You fit your life within a square and nothing else is appropriate. You live your life according to a conglomeration of books that a group of men bundled together. They chose which disciple's writings were worthy and which were not, so as to fit with their picture of what Christianity should be.

I'm very devout in my beliefs, but I hate zealots and extremists. I am also not an establishment Christian, meaning I don't need someone else to tell me about my relationship with God and Christ, I'm not that dumb or ignorant.

What is your end state? Are all Masonic bodies disbanded and the members jailed? Would you have an inquisition occur?

[edit on 6-6-2010 by KSigMason]

reply to post by eudaimonia


A reply to the original post.

Here a just a few reasons for maintaining secrecy in Freemasonry.

1) The degrees of Freemasonry are intended to be an initiatory experience. The emotional impact of the ceremonies is significantly lessened when the candidate has foreknowledge of what will occur -- beyond the most basic of outlines.

2) The Fraternity has always defended the right of free men to meet freely to discuss matters that concern them in private. Simply put, what happens in a lodge in none of your business if you are not a member.

3) The ability to maintain silence and keep a confidence is tragically undervalued in our society. The Fraternity teaches men to respect the trust reposed in them by others when a confidence is entrusted to them. This creates a situation where I can go to my Brothers and seek their advice, knowing that my personal business will not become fodder for common gossip.

4) The obvious secrets of Freemasonry (the modes of recognition) stand in place of deeper concepts which should not be given lightly to those who are unprepared. By learning to cut your teeth on trivial secrets, then the confidences of friends, you demonstrate a readiness to hold true secrets.

5) One of the most basic tests of freedom is your ability to meet in private, discuss what you wish in private, and shut the door against every king, prince, president, potentate, priest, judge, lawyer, and police officer who would attempt to learn what you discuss without your consent. Freemasonry, therefore, is eternally the enemy of every dictator and tyrant of every political persuasion. Indeed, history amply demonstrates that where freedom is endangered, Freemasonry is detested. In this fashion, the Fraternity stands as a sure and steady bulwark against the arbitrary power.

Five good reasons to maintain secrecy.

Originally posted by exjobie
it is one thing to tolerate the faith of others, it is an entirely different thing to pray at an alter with "other gods before you".

Alter is a verb, meaning to change. As in the sentence: "The tailor altered the dress so that it fit the bride."

Altar is a noun, meaning an elevated structure or place where religious ceremonies are conducted or sacrifices are offered.

When I stand at the altar in my lodge, there are no other gods before me. My brothers and I may have different faiths and we may call God by many names, but we address ourselves to the one, true, living God who is the foundation of being and the great Creator of All.

You seem to have a very tiny concept of God, exjobie, and your attempt to place God into such a small box and control him by limiting by words selected from scripture frankly strikes me as a form of idolatry. I suggest to you that more true prayer is heard by God when it is offered, however imperfectly, with love in my lodge than when it is offered with judgement elsewhere.

I will pray for you.

Originally posted by exjobie
last i checked the torah was part of the Bible. however it predates the story of Christ so i am not sure why a christian would be comfortable with that

I have no idea why they would be uncomforable with that aspect considering that Christ actually predates Christianity.

secondly, when was the koran written?

It is currently believed that it was written in the 7th century AD. It does however contain numerous persons and anecdotes that are also mentioned in the Bible so it is not very disimilar in many regards.

i do not let "brothers" dictate my spiritual practices. that is for God to decide.

Nice try at trying to speak for me but I had made my spiritual choices long before I becqame a Mason. Organized religious dogma is not for me.

Again, excellent DODGING.

Dodging what? Try to be more specific and less cryptic.

And speaking of dodging, you still have not answered my question; How many omnipotent beings do you know of?

do you believe that job's daughters is based on the book of job in the Bible? if so, tell me why you think so.

i know of one omnipetent being, and many who come in His name.

are you speaking of gnostic text? like per chance the testaments of solomon or job?

do masons support gnosis?

Originally posted by exjobie
do you believe that job's daughters is based on the book of job in the Bible?

What I personally believe is irrelevant. Thier own history says that they are founded on the 15th verse of the 42nd Chapter of the Book of Job:

"In all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren."

i know of one omnipetent being, and many who come in His name.

Well that one omnipotent being is the same the world over. If you believe in God the Creator then it is the same God the Creator that others also believe in.

are you speaking of gnostic text? like per chance the testaments of solomon or job?

No, and I do not see how you infered that or the relevance of the same.

do masons support gnosis?

Masons only support the belief on Diety. It is up to the person to choose their own spiritual path.

reply to post by exjobie

Freemasonry is religion neutral in the aspect of holding one above another. Men of gnostic beliefs would be welcome. Freemasonry just requires a man to believe in a supreme being.

I'm guessing you find them reprehensible. You still didn't answer my questions.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by exjobie
do you believe that job's daughters is based on the book of job in the Bible?

What I personally believe is irrelevant. Thier own history says that they are founded on the 15th verse of the 42nd Chapter of the Book of Job:

"In all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren."

See, now if they'd based it on Heinlein's Job, I'd let my daughter join...

Here's my "Simple reason" why this and other masonic traditions are a good idea. It seems to bother someone like yourself, enough so you are unlikely to join.

After reading this thread, I feel very assured you would not make a very good mason, nor would you be satisfied or happy with it if you tried it. If it alienates people who are utterly paranoid, and unwilling to discuss any other view but their own, unwilling to keep an open mind, and clearly look for the worst in people rather then see the good....I hope it continues to alienate such personalities, as they are quite incompatible with the ideals of brotherhood among mankind, and promoting truth in all things.

The world is full of a certain mindset you can find them everywhere in every company. In every group. In every Church. In Every Military unit. There's always a group of people who find it inconceivable others can have an opinion that is contrary to their own. They do not understand the ideal of "agree to disagree" They take such disagreements as a personal offense, and are so offended as to then try to somehow harm those that disagreed with them, whether by slander, or limiting their career or position in the group.They tend to bare deep grudges over small offenses. As they themselves are naturally prone to vindictiveness, they see all others to be this as well, then in a classic case of “projecting” of their own values they feel deep paranoia. So they become paranoid convinced that others are out to get them, and that they must get them first........they are in short socially a poison......they are ruin to any circle of friends or any group put together for almost any reason.

They cause companies to have unrest, HR managers to have nightmares, military units to break moral, churches and temples to lose sight of their spiritual purpose.....this destructive personality has been discussed in every philosophy and religion the world since the beginning of societies, perhaps best described in the Zoroastrian's "Angra Mainyu". When a single person has it, it’s a source of discontent with all who encounter them. Worse when a leadership gets it wether in a company, a country, or a religion.......well you end up with somethingly epicly bad for that society……the worst perversions of Islamofascim we see today in terrorist groups, or the Nazi's, or the Spanish Inquisition........it is a seed that unchecked can become a great poisonous evil...........

Perhaps it is such people who possess this malcontent and destructive spirit which is one of the MANY MANY reasons why such groups choose to limit who may join their number......there's a little nugget of ancient mystical wisdom to chew on.....a true pearl.


[edit on 14/6/2010 by ForkandSpoon]

Originally posted by eudaimonia

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
To be against a group just because they have "secret" beliefs seems rather odd to me. That's like being against someone just because the pray in secret.When in all reality that is what the Bible tells us to do, pray in secret

[edit on 11-3-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

And on a seperate note, please don't refer to the bible or make any justifications by invoking the name of religion. You will lost all credibility.

well who dies and made you super moderator?

I'd like to add that being anti secret society is more about rejecting the ideas surrounding all cult-like activity. Religious groups are number one when it comes to this. Freemasonry & a couple other groups aren't far behind. Many teeter on the line of being an actual cult. Only the members themselves can decide if the group they're involved with is influencing their free-thinking for better or worse.

I hope my post isn't viewed as a means of derailing this thread. That's far from my intentions. I'd simply like to demonstrate how similar secret societies, freemasonry, & many religious organizations mirror how cults operate. Everyone has an engrained need to feel accepted by others. That's human nature. I'm just saying that people need to be careful who you decide to surround yourselves with, then ask yourself if the group has your best interest in mind.
Peace, everyone.

Quoted from source:
"Because all cults have different beliefs, cult experts have identified common characteristics of cults, which they use to identify new cults. Thus, an organization can be identified as a cult no matter what their beliefs are. We have used the following lists of cult characteristics to help us analyze whether or not the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is a religious cult. We make the following lists available to others as a public service. If you have any reason to believe that you or anyone close to you is involved with a group that you suspect is a cult (religious or not) then you can use the following lists to help you decide whether the group is a cult. (Please note that a group doesn't need to have all the characteristics in any one list to really be a destructive cult. If a group has more than half of the cult characteristics in any of the lists below, then you should be concerned."

Cult Information Centre (31 Characteristics)
Every cult can be defined as a group having all of the following five characteristics:
1. It uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate and retain its members
2. It forms an elitist totalitarian society.
3. Its founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not accountable and has charisma.
4. It believes 'the end justifies the means' in order to solicit funds recruit people.
5. Its wealth does not benefit its members or society.

Mind Control techniques include:
1. Hypnosis
Inducing a state of high suggestibility by hypnosis, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation.
2. Peer Group Pressure
Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong.
3. Love Bombing
Creating a sense of family and belonging through hugging, kissing, touching and flattery.
4. Rejection of Old Values
Accelerating acceptance of new life style by constantly denouncing former values and beliefs.
5. Confusing Doctrine
Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine.
6. Metacommunication
Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures.
7. Removal of Privacy
Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation.
8. Time Sense Deprivation
Destroying ability to evaluate information, personal reactions, and body functions in relation to passage of time by removing all clocks and watches.
9. Disinhibition
Encouraging child-like obedience by orchestrating child-like behaviour.
10. Uncompromising Rules
Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications.
11. Verbal Abuse
Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language.
12. Sleep Deprivation and Fatigue
Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental an physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep.
13. Dress Codes
Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code.
14. Chanting and Singing
Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases.
15. Confession
Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt.
16. Financial Commitment
Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets.
17. Finger Pointing
Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world and other cults.
18. Flaunting Hierarch
Promoting acceptance of cult authority by promising advancement, power and salvation.
19. Isolation
Inducing loss of reality by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references.
20. Controlled Approval
Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions.
21. Change of Diet
Creating disorientation and increased susceptibility to emotional arousal by depriving the nervous system of necessary nutrients through the use of special diets and/or fasting.
22. Games
Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules.
23. No Questions
Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions.
24. Guilt
Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles.
25. Fear
Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed.
26. Replacement of Relationships
Destroying pre-cult families by arranging cult marriages and 'families'.

Rick Ross (20 Characteristics)

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

- Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
- No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
- No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
- Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
- There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
- Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
- There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
- Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
- The group/leader is always right.
- The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

www.prem-rawat-talk.org...

reply to post by Afterthought


Well, it's nice to have that as a helpful guideline to show that Freemasonry is not a cult.

Star for you!

23.. Love Is The Law.. Higher Beings Command

-- End Of Transmission --

Originally posted by exjobie
i know of one omnipetent being, and many who come in His name.

Interestingly I know of at least 4 major world religions with a deity whose name remains the same, but is only stated differently based on language and antiquity......."I am", fair enough if you haven't bothered to read further into other religious texts to know this, but I hope you've read the Bible well enough to know that the real name of God, the only name so excepted by his priests was not a given name but rather a discription......"I am that I am" This was an important point to the Jewish religious leader as it was only this deeper understanding that convinced them Moses was sent by God... The reason being is the "given" names were entirely based on local culture....which is AGAIN gone over in the Bible.....one tribe using Elohim, another using Yaweh, and yet further we are told that Cyrus was spoken to by God it was he who initially freed the Jews and helped financially support the building of the temple, yet we know he was Zoroastrian...and he is considered a messiah (by the way the name for god In Astrianism in it's most ancient form "Ahmi" is also "I am")

before you judge other faiths and wether someone is a righteous man based on what name he uses for God, perhaps at least a cursory understanding of your own faiths text is in order?

Originally posted by exjobie
do masons support gnosis?

Masons neither supports nor undermine any one religious view, as division is not our intent, but rather "agreeing to disagree" and working together......let each man follow his faith in earnest devotion as his study and prayers lead him......we'll leave the intolerance, devisiveness to the zealots.

However if the definition of the righteous were as black and white as you put forth based on what local language and traditions are used to describe the creator......then the bible is at odds with your world view...

I have gone trough all those comments and replies and I am, as so often, confused how much people are interested in so called "secret societies" and talking much about it without knowing what they talk about.

First of all, there are no secret societies. There are societies with secrets.
Those secrets are no secrets in some way because anyone wants to know about the secret can join. Once be found able and worthy to share the secret, he can do.

So, why all that bulls.it around something that is open to just anyone if ever he wants and, for sure, is able and intelligent enough to understand it.

Now, some say, why do we not share the secret and use it to change the world.

Simply for the reason that is called faith. Faith is a dogmatic state of mind.
Myself, I give often some indications about certain things concerning what is meant by this or that in the scriptures. Here, it is faith that leads people to arrogance. Arrogance is ignorance anyway and all the crap that is then thrown over to me is worth to write whole books of it.

Try today to tell a Muslim that his god is the same as the one of the jews, the same as the one of christians, the same as the one of Buddhists or Taoists and you will live hell on earth in just a second.

And this is not only that way with Muslims, the Bible "eaters" on this site are as agressive and arrogant as Muslims or just any other brothers of any dogmatic faith.

Here is one of the major reasons why secret societies do not openly share the secret. How can you share something that nobody wants to hear and listen to anyway. What is it ?. Just truth, nothing more.

The scriptures of all religions and cults are based on the same teachings. Some open it in a simple and clear text, some just hide it as a secret code in stories. If we go back 2000 years in time we know that such secrets who could discover the lies and the hypocrisy of religions where dangerous to teach or even to speak about and still today the Vatican and the Jewish and Islamic religious authorities fight against that teachings where there own religions are originating from.

And as long as our society remains diabolic (diabolos means split in greek), as long nothing will change. Once children become simply children again and not jewish children, islamic children, christian children, evangelic children, mormon children and so on, as long as we do not abolish those in error leading doctrines that wash the brain of our children and give them there identity based on blind faith, as long as this goes on we will not live a change in the way our society is made and functions.

Look this from another point of view like this : once you get born, you are a customer, once you get an Id card you are a suspect and once you wear your first brand, you become that sucker the world wants you to be.

This is a business oriented thought but on the end, are religions something else then business. Why does the Vatican fights birth control that can prevent overpopulation of the globe. simply because every sucker that sticks to there faith pays 1 dollar a week or a month and that is what makes them run and live like kings. Islam does the same but for reason of conquest by number, even if the head remains empty, who cares. Power by mass, not by intellect.

So, think about it and once you think you need to suck, get an ice-cream.
It's, to my opinion, a much better investment.

i am very familiar with the "official" history of job's daughters. in my opinion the statement that iojd was founded on the book of job in the bible is a outright lie. that is my point sir. i am angry because i was lied to. AGAIN, read the material if you want to debate this with me.

wesley.nnu.edu...

quiz of the day:

why are iojd robes greecian? i thought the book of job was set in the middle east? even the testament of job was set on the border of edom and arabia. could it be that this is a reference to the language of the oldest copies of the testament of job? Coptic was a language developed to write egyptian using the greek alphabet. as far as i can see there is no reference to greek anything in the book of job.

btw, here is proof from an iojd website that even by the official discription of the order, the robes are greecian. seems like the grown up's aren't the only ones who have an order veiled in allegory.

www.missouriiojd.org...

[edit on 25-6-2010 by exjobie]

Originally posted by exjobie


why are iojd robes greecian? i thought the book of job was set in the middle east?

Actually, it is set in Uz, a land that history has forgotten. Maybe the robes are Greek because Uz was actually Atlantis?