Originally posted by Andy Warhol
I didn't get the stuff for exmasons.com that's exactly what my friend said about the ritual. That it felt like a baptism into masonry.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that you got it from the website, but I do believe your friend probably did. The initiation ritual does not "feel" like any sort of "baptism", which means "lustration". Instead, it feels like being initiated into a fraternity.

Washum came up with the whole baptism thing in conjunction with the Third Degree, and put it on his website. To those who are Masons and who have passed through the rites, the notion that a fraternity initiation ceremony could be construed as some sort of baptism is of course absurd.

Okay, I'm not a Mason. In fact, I don't belong to any formal group anywhere. Not even the Auto Club. The stumbling block for a lot of people regarding Freemasonry is obviously that they have "secrets". This is viewed as Freemasonry constituting a "secret society", which I don't believe.

To me, a "secret society" keeps the membership itself secret. Members of a "secret society" won't admit to being members or even admit to the existence of the society. Freemasonry fails the "secret society" test on both of these points.

Now it is a "society with secrets" as in their modes of recognition. Why? Tradition, more than anything. College frats have the same thing with secret grips and phrases. Big deal.

Some other things about the Masonic fraternity are "secret" (although available if you look hard enough) because divulging the contents of the practices and rituals without benefit of the actual experience dilutes their effectiveness, which is after all, the whole purpose for joining, anyway. I mean imagine standing in line to see a movie like "Psycho" when it first came out and some knucklehead behind you says "Guess what? Tony Perkins is his own mother." Kinda a buzz-kill, no? People kept that "secret" so as to not ruin the experience of seeing the film for their friends.

So being informed about the process/ritual/whatever without the benefit of the experience basically nullifies part of the value of the experience. Hence the "secrecy".

I'm absolutely not an advocate of "secret societies" but I certainly don't think that Freemasonry constitutes one. And in this rare case, not only am I not prepared to be wrong, I'm damned sure I'm right.

[Edit for typo]

[edit on 12/7/2006 by yeahright]

free masons arnt the only alleged secert societies, its just the failed to stay a secert

but i agree with the writer of this thread, if you aint got nothing to hide why hide nothing at all, the reason people keep secerts is to benefit themselfs for the expense of others. same with any group that keeps secerts, goverments , companies, secert societies. they can all go hell, hail eris,

all hail discordia.

all is welcome in the bossom of chaos.

some one should make a anti secert society- letting infomation run free telling every1 every thing

oh wait i forgot suposingly we arnt equal therefore we arnt all entitled, i hate heirachy whether its secert or not

(one should never come on here after fasting and meditating for 3 days , things are more liquid than solid today)

free masons arnt the only alleged secert societies, its just the failed to stay a secert

but i agree with the writer of this thread, if you aint got nothing to hide why hide nothing at all, the reason people keep secerts is to benefit themselfs for the expense of others. same with any group that keeps secerts, goverments , companies, secert societies. they can all go hell, hail eris,

all hail discordia.

all is welcome in the bossom of chaos.

some one should make a anti secert society- letting infomation run free telling every1 every thing

oh wait i forgot suposingly we arnt equal therefore we arnt all entitled, i hate heirachy whether its secert or not

(one should never come on here after fasting and meditating for 3 days , things are more liquid than solid today)

free masons arnt the only alleged secert societies, its just the failed to stay a secert

but i agree with the writer of this thread, if you aint got nothing to hide why hide nothing at all, the reason people keep secerts is to benefit themselfs for the expense of others. same with any group that keeps secerts, goverments , companies, secert societies. they can all go hell, hail eris,

all hail discordia.

all is welcome in the bossom of chaos.

some one should make a anti secert society- letting infomation run free telling every1 every thing

oh wait i forgot suposingly we arnt equal therefore we arnt all entitled, i hate heirachy whether its secert or not

(one should never come on here after fasting and meditating for 3 days , things are more liquid than solid today)

law of 3

whahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

What goes on at meetings? What is it you do when the doors close?

Ok..another syncronycity,I just posted this on a forum..do freemasons preserve arcane mystical and occult knowledge in thier rituals..and someone liked it and wanted me to check this subject here out.and possibly write..I just copied and pasted it to here.

I would like to add that I make love in secret,does that mean someone is going to wipe me out?
I dont believe secret societies are against us or do much wrong...some of the greatest writtings/arts,music,structure,architect..so on and so forth has come from secret societies...just as in society abroad it is a few individuals that do wrong..not the whole society...even as individuals,all of us at times we have negative thoughts which are a form of black magic,it is up to each of us to think positive and make positive wishes,etc.

now I am not a mason/free or in any secret society but On my own I do have experiental knowledge and innate..

We as I say below all have this knowledge,we just have not tapped into it..and I am glad we do not...the world that we can not see is untamed and can be dangerous,if not to others to yourself or your mind..I would rather die than to lose my mind.

Our subconsciousness has with in it arcane mystical and occult knowledge in it,so why would Freemasonry not preserve it...it is a mystery tradition!,and there are many.. A spiritual secret society, the goal is the elevation of individual consciousness....the pursuit is individual and accomplished in private...not of flesh or by flesh...though society's give us like minds to be with and a true society gives us an adept, advancing in specific teaching, in a group the results can be more dramatic, swearing of oaths completes a kind of spiritual circuitry..there is more psychic energy! more focus,and tends to keep us more grounded.and it test and tries us to see if we are fit to contain the knowledge taught..

now I am unsure of what secret societys/freemasonry tecah,I only know what I have learned on my own about about my higher self and if it is anything like what secret societys contain than yes they do preserve arcane knowledge and occult and keep it secret to protect the structure of our society and its individuals..
for what I myself have learned and it being just the tip of the iceberg,I can see this knowledge being dangerous or trying to find this knowledge can be as well if your outside of a circle ..there with in the uncharted regions of the universe of our minds,sacred space between the worlds,one must be trained and disciplined..

We all contain this knowledge we must just learn to quiet our minds and see it.and have good intentions. So yes..they do contain it, though that can just be an assumption of mine, for I have none to very little learned knowledge of the societies,no experience.Thats why I am here for brief amounts of time to see if anything catches my attention..and something did just prior to writting this..someone on this forum has my last name as thier user name..a synchronicity! and I just was in Rochester NY. and on my way home I bought a book on mysteries and opened it up to see it published in Rochester VT....states apart..is there something to this,does it contain some arcane knowledge or modern knowledge of my path perhaps?


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those who wander are not allways lost,those who ponder are

I would say that the vast majority of secret societies are beneficial. I admit that these days, secrecy is frowned on. However, secrets are often good. For example, your bank PIN, your embarrassing moments, your company's trade secrets.

It's only natural for societies to have secrets. Just like school girls trade secrets to bring them together, fraternities and other societies make sure to have a lot of "members only" stuff. It gives perceived value to the group. The initiation rituals are like a start-up cost Like boot camp and hazing(bad).

On the face of it they appear bad. After all "secret ritual" is almost synonymous with "hidden action", which on the face of it may be the dictionary definition of conspiracy. But these groups are for the most part service and charitable organizations. These groups also make the ordinary person feel important. The average person can be confered with grand titles like "Grand High Priest", "Potentate", "Venerable Master."

There are indeed a lot of crazies on this website - crazies who do not know how to critically think. Is this the fault of our nations' public education or a natural thing?

I would say it is both natural and education.The dream of the planet is the craziest thing..it is parisitic.When will we all wake from this dream and jump out of the tuna boat.(get out of the box)

Did you ever think that the point of a secret society is to induce the seeking of the member body? Some truths can only be understood by direct experience. Direct experience sought, realized and interpreted internally. That's why yogis and gurus sit on mountain tops laughing instead of revealing the magic word that takes suffering away from the world.

You can't TELL someone real truth, each person must find it themselves. Existential thought isn't as simple as a literal book and an hour on sunday, it's an involved internal process and esoteric groups like the masons have processes and imagery in place that induce candidates and members to trigger the seeking process. Truthfully, most brothers already had already begun that journey, which is what lead them to become masons in the first place.

That's why they don't discuss points of contention and dogmas within their ranks. The details of the truth each brother finds may vary from one to another. The point isn't the destination, it's the journey.

Sometimes the seeking leads someone to be a Thomas Edison, Andrew Carnegie or Henry Ford. Sometimes it leads them to disassemble a government. Sometimes they start a new one. When you induce people to ask the big questions, you get big results.

Not to mention, conspiracy theory nuts would probably be pretty shocked to see exactly how many conspiracy nuts are IN the masons.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
To those who are Masons and who have passed through the rites, the notion that a fraternity initiation ceremony could be construed as some sort of baptism is of course absurd.

In fairness I have in fact read several Masonic books documents stating the use of the symbolic Apron replaced the annointing in a baptism like fashion in the early masonic lodge. I don't know if that true or not but i can in fact see similarities symbolically.

Personally I see no issue, Baptism is based on Judeo–Christian traditions. masonry is based on Judeo–Christian traditions....of course we have many things in common.

Masonry ultimately reinforces many of the lessons in the Bible.

masonry is not based on biblical principles. anyone who tries to say so forgets the first commandment. thou shalt have no other gods before me. remember this when the Bible is pulled of the alter and a koran or other such text replaces it so not to offend your fellow lodge members. a subtle way indeed to cause a man to commit spiritual adultry. I guess it is all the same to me. masonry seems to be a good way to discern a christian that has read the book that has supposedly inspired their faith, from the ones that have not.

Originally posted by exjobie
masonry is not based on biblical principles. anyone who tries to say so forgets the first commandment. thou shalt have no other gods before me. remember this when the Bible is pulled of the alter and a koran or other such text replaces it so not to offend your fellow lodge members.

So the God the Koran or the Torah is not the same God as the Christian Bible?

a subtle way indeed to cause a man to commit spiritual adultry. I guess it is all the same to me. masonry seems to be a good way to discern a christian that has read the book that has supposedly inspired their faith, from the ones that have not.

Well, if it means that if me being a Mason does not make me a bigoted born again Christian, then I am happy sharing my lodge with other tolerant people and caling them Brother.

i am glad you are happy with your spiritual choices, and considering that you are not christian, i do not expect you to have any understanding of the statement i have just made. it is one thing to tolerate the faith of others, it is an entirely different thing to pray at an alter with "other gods before you". it may be fine and well for you as a brother to man, but i am more interested in being obediant to God... the real capital G.

joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

please indulge me by reading what the Bible says about these matters



on religious tolerance...

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 (King James Version)

14"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

2 John 1:9-11 (King James Version)

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

1 John 4:3 (King James Version)

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Galatians 1:6-9 (King James Version)

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.



on swearing oaths...

Matthew 5:34-37 (King James Version)

"But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: [35] Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. [36] Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. [37] But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."