Simple reason why I'm Anti-Secret Societies/Freemasonry

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Secret societies work against society that is what they do. They elevate their members above the rest of society. Thus any outsider is in effect an enenmy of them in effect.

You guys like to quote Pike as an authority on everything, so why don't we turn to him now, eh?

But the great commandment of Masonry is this: "A new commandment give I unto you: that ye love one another! He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, remaineth still in the darkness."

Such are the moral duties of a Mason. But it is also the duty of Masonry to assist in elevating the moral and intellectual level of society; in coining knowledge, bringing ideas into circulation, and causing the mind of youth to grow; and in putting, gradually, by the teachings of axioms and the promulgation of positive laws, the human race in harmony with its destinies.

To this duty and work the Initiate is apprenticed. He must not imagine that he can effect nothing, and, therefore, despairing, become inert. It is in this, as in a man's daily life. Many great deeds are done in the small struggles of life. There is, we are told, a determined though unseen bravery, which defends itself, foot to foot, in the darkness, against the fatal invasion of necessity and of baseness. There are noble and mysterious triumphs, which no eye sees, which no renown rewards, which no flourish of trumpets salutes. Life, misfortune, isolation, abandonment, poverty, and
battle-fields, which have their heroes,--heroes obscure, but sometimes greater than those who become illustrious.

"Morals and Dogma", p. 18-19

Sort of takes the steam out your "theory", huh?

Originally posted by Boatphone
eudaimonia,

We live in a free society, that means people have freedom of assembly. Do you think that there should be some kinda of goverment agency oversees all meetings, just to make sure they are not secret? That would be a AWFUL thing. Who are you to tell people how they can meet, or how to live?

The fact that people can meet in secret protects your freedoms. How can you be against freedom?

-- Boat

If secrecy is considered an essential part of our freedoms in this country, then it's no surprise how this country has had a long history of falling through a downspiral of deception and lies.

Originally posted by Helios Barca
If only that were true, the government we have would be infinitely more fair and just than it is today. Anyway, Masonic 'beliefs', such as they are, are not integrated into the American Government.

It is true. Are your eyes open? But you don't believe it. So Question: How would freemasonry create a more fair and just government?

Moral and Intellectual enlightenment. Not levels of understanding on how to rule the world. Think of it in the same manner you'd think of Monks or Buddhists. They have their, secret, rituals and lessons only taught to members of their order. Are you going to insist we get rid of all the monastic orders, or eliminate all the various eastern influenced religions?

If you control the government you have power over the people and other countries. Freemasonry plays a big part in this.

Monastic orders and other various religions have their own ways of controlling the masses. I am also Anti-Religion.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
OK, eudo, let me ask you a serious question, and before going off half-cocked about it, at least consider the implications:

Let's suppose that some society, whether it be Masonry or something else, does have such a secret. Let's also assume that this secret does give insight into the nature of existence and the cosmic forces that are currently outside of the scope of profane science.

Do you really believe that such a secret should be handed on a silver platter to everybody indiscriminately?

Yes. I believe such a secret should be exposed to everyone. People want and need the truth. The risk of someone using it for evil is something I can deal with, but the secret is out and that's what counts.

If such a secret exists who are these people that think they are "the ones" who have the responsibility and power to keep it hidden from mankind?

Would every single man be worthy of it? Or would some only use it to destroy themselves and others? Did not the Most Wise Master warn not to cast pearls before swine? Would you give a loaded gun to a child who has not been taught the proper way to use it?

Every single man may not be worthy of it, but the good men who will use it for the good of the world will be one who triumph.

It is our duty as a human to teach and comfort those who are lost and confused.

Now, let's assume that a group of saints, sages, and philosophers have formed such a secret society for the purpose of communicating this secret only to those who have proven themselves worthy and responsible enough to receive it. First, through initiation, one is indoctrinated in the essence of philanthropy, good faith, and virtue, which is the basis of all good. The Adepts will observe the initiate over time, to see if he is capable of living his life in a selfless and virtuous manner, as well as expanding his intellectual and instinctual prowess. He is tested to see how he responds in certain situations, and always acts in accordance with virtue, charity, and good conscience.

Would the secret not be safe with him, but disastrous to the materialistic and greedy?

If you believe that evil is too great in this world, then I would understand why one would not share such a powerful secret.

But I believe there is still good out there. More good than evil, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Damocles357
Hey, eudaimonia, do you like Krispy Kreme donuts? Yummy, no?

Only two or three people know the true recipe to making the donuts. The donut mix is made under strict security and then bags of mix are sent out to the different shops. Nobody else knows the recipe, not even the individual shop managers.

I'm a vegan.

This is one example of literally thousands where businesses keep secret a critical piece of information that makes their business unique and successful. Does this make them evil? Plotting to take over the world through infiltrating their government?

Hardly.

Business secrets are not evil. They are critical to maintain competition, something that drives the marketplace. Giving out all the secrets will dilute their value, and in the end, foster a monopoly.

Okay, I'm talking about secret societies or societies within governments that have secretes that can be used for the good of the world if only such a secret were revealed.

Not a donut shop.

Do some research...you can find the entire text of all the masonic rituals online if you dig deep enough. You will find out there is no infrastructure for world takeover there. Dig some more into the way lodges are structures, and run. The hierarchy stops at the state level (in the US), so there are 51 GLs in the country (don't forget DC). The scope of the business meetings is to argue over light bulbs and organize fish frys.

Barely earth-shaking info, eh?

You are implying that you fully know everything and comprehend the intentions of all men who are a part of Freemasonry. That's ridiculous.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Eudamoia, let me ask you a few simple questions, please:

What is your true name?
What is your home address?
What is your telephone number?
How old are you?
Are you a registered voter? If so, what party, and please list your voting record.
What is your sexual orientation?
What is your marital status?
Please list all your sexual encounters from adolescence onward, including autoerotic activities. Use extra pages if required.

Are you saying none of this is any of my business?

Of course it's not! Your activities are none of my business at all!

Does this mean that I'm supposed to bad-mouth you because you have a right to privacy? I make my true name and phone number available (just look at my profile), but I'm not obligated to share any secrets with you.

The reasons the Masons keep their secrets is because they can. They're not taking your tax money; they're not bothering you, they just figure that their activities are none of your business ...

Which of course, they're not!

You're coming across like a whiny ten-year-old who has not been invited to join Dougie's and Billy's Secret Club.

[edit on 11-3-2006 by Off_The_Street]

This post is so ridiculous.

My country is my business. My government is my business. The belief system and philosophies of Freemasonry and god knows what other "groups" that use this government for their own means is absolutely unacceptable.

I don't want to join any club.

Take a look at the back of the dollar bill and tell me with a straight face that Freemasonry had no part in the creation of the symbols:





a statement by Manly P. Hall

"Careful analysis of the seal discloses a mass of occult and masonic symbols..."





and this logo was used on www.freemasons.com website in 1996 until it was closed for reasons unknown:

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The following is my opinion, as many would disagree. However, I give my opinion through years of intense research.

I do believe that there is such a secret. I likewise believe that this secret is concealed in the symbolism of Masonry.

However, I do not believe that this secret is alluded to formally, and one must study the symbols independently.

It is quite obvious that there is a secret in the symbolism of Masonry.

I have a feeling it has something to do with Time Travel or Technological Advancement based on ancient beliefs in astronomy/astrology. What's your thoughts on that?

[edit on 11-3-2006 by eudaimonia]

Originally posted by eudaimonia

Yes. I believe such a secret should be exposed to everyone. People want and need the truth. The risk of someone using it for evil is something I can deal with, but the secret is out and that's what counts.

Then you would give a loaded weapon to a child?

If such a secret exists who are these people that think they are "the ones" who have the responsibility and power to keep it hidden from mankind?

I would imagine if one were an Adept, he or she would know it, and be aware of the power and responsibility that comes with it. Perhaps you would aske "What makes them Adepts?". In anticipation of such a question, all I can really say is "God" or "Nature".

We differ in opinion over this. You think everything should be handed over on a silver platter simply because people are used to getting what they want. I, on the other hand, believe that Nature is composed in such a way as to demand those who really desire her secrets to first prove themselves worthy. It is Isis that chooses who will be allowed to see Her unveiled, and once again, as Christ once sternly warned, pearls must not be cast before swine.

Every single man may not be worthy of it, but the good men who will use it for the good of the world will be one who triumph.

This, it may be remarked, has always been the case.

It is our duty as a human to teach and comfort those who are lost and confused.

This is absolutely correct. In fact, it may be that such a one who is devoted to teaching and comforting the lost and confused is himself on the path of Adeptship.

If you believe that evil is too great in this world, then I would understand why one would not share such a powerful secret.

But I believe there is still good out there. More good than evil, in my opinion.

It would certainly be nice to think so. But in the end, the decision isn't up to me or you, or any High Council of Rosicrucian Adepts, even if one exists. The final authority is Nature, who will share Her Secrets with those who are worthy, while shunning the vulgar.

Originally posted by eudaimonia



It is quite obvious that there is a secret in the symbolism of Masonry.

I have a feeling it has something to do with Time Travel or Technological Advancement based on ancient beliefs in astronomy/astrology. What's your thoughts on that?

Perhaps you are close to mark concerning ancient beliefs, but I wouldn't put much faith in technology. Even if the ancients had some we are not currently aware of, it would not have aided them spiritually, any more than our own technology has aided us.

I believe many of the modern profane scientists have come close to the secret, especially Einstein, Hawking, Freud, Jung, and Reich. In my opinion, the secret would concentrate on personal spiritual evolution and insight. It isn't about political intrigue or conspiracy theories or aliens. It would simply be about Life, and what Life means to the individual.

Where does it say that masons have to give a dang about outsiders?

Masonic knowledge is that retained from Atlantis and prior civilizations some claim. Again it has been the leadership, particularily in the York Rite in London that began the takeover in 1800s of freemasonry for dubious purposes. Before that freemasonry was more or less considered benign by most people.

I also understand that you are choosen to the highest ranks eg. above the first three ranks and that explains how somebody like Reagan for example ended up a 33rd degree mason quite fast.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Where does it say that masons have to give a dang about outsiders?

In the quote, where Pike says it is the mason's duty to improve society as a whole.

Masonic knowledge is that retained from Atlantis and prior civilizations some claim. Again it has been the leadership, particularily in the York Rite in London that began the takeover in 1800s of freemasonry for dubious purposes. Before that freemasonry was more or less considered benign by most people.

What "takeover" are you talking about? Where are you getting this stuff?

I also understand that you are choosen to the highest ranks eg. above the first three ranks and that explains how somebody like Reagan for example ended up a 33rd degree mason quite fast.

There's no such thing as "first three ranks". If you mean degrees, then you are mistaken. Any Third Degree Master Mason in good standing may request the additional degrees at his leisure.

As for Reagan, he was not a Mason, much less a 33°. Reagan was honored by the Supreme Council, and given a plaque by Fred Kleinknecht, who at the time was head of the Supreme Council. This plaque did not, of course, make Reagan a Mason.

whaaaa says:

I personally don't care what anyone or any group does as long as it dosen't [sic] affect ME.

And how do a bunch of guys meeting in a hall to which you’re not invited "affect" you, anyway?

When a group of people get together and think that they are special and know what is best for me and my family, whether it has to do with business, politics, culture, war, or the way I brush my teeth; it is my business.

Rubbish. I think I’m better than you in a lot of ways. I can probably play several musical instruments better than you can; I believe I can write more clearly than you; and the odds are pretty good that I’m a lot better scuba diver than you are. Are you saying that I don’t have a right to think that I’m better than you are? I don’t know what it’s like in your country, but here in the United States of America, people can think what they choose, as long gas they don’t act on it.

And who cares if I “know what’s best for you and your family”, as long as I don’t try to impose what I “know” on you or your family, anyway? I don’t think the Masons (although, not being a Mason, I can’t say for sure) “know” what’s best for you, but who gives a rip? A whole bunch of preachers “know” what’s best for me, too, but I blow them off, since they’re absolutely powerless to control me -- just like the Masons are absolutely powerless to control you.

And off the Street you sound like a whiney, arrogant, control freak that wants to have control over others wheather [sic] it's your business or not.

Hey, bubba, you’re the one who seems to want to control the Masons, not I. You’re the one who is bad-mouthing a bunch of harmless (at least as far as I can see) people and want to stop them from doing whatever it is they do. That sounds pretty control-freakish to me, Jim!

Question Authority!! Especially when they get together and plot against the people that pay their salaries.

You pay the salaries of Masons? And they’re “plotting” against us? You have any evidence of that, or are you just making stories up as an excuse to shut them down? Sounds like something el Presidente Bush might pull.

Any group that is so arrogant to think they know best and the rest of us should listen to them and keep our mouth shut needs to be shut down.

Again, whaaa, I can’t argue with you, since we obviously live in different countries with different ideas of freedom. As I mentioned before, I am a citizen of the United States of America, where our basic rule book, called the “Constitution”, allows people to pretty much think the way they want to as long as they don’t try to stuff their beliefs down the throats of others.

I don't care if it's the skull and bones, the Masons, Christian southern leadership conference, BPOE, Black Panthers, Grey Panthers or Dougies and Billys secret club; Leave Me Alone and let me make my own decisions!

Yeah, right. You want to be “left alone” to make your own decisions.

And one of your “decisions” is to shut people down who also want to left alone from you and make their own decisions...

…But you won’t let them.

I believe that Freemasonry is a deception from the master of all lies, satan. Flame me if you want, but that is my belief. Nothing good has or will ever come out of things discussed in secret.

I'm a vegan.

Good for you. More meat for me.

You are implying that you fully know everything and comprehend the intentions of all men who are a part of Freemasonry. That's ridiculous.

I imply nothing. Just as you could never guess the motivations of millions of individuals, I similarly make no claim. But I do know a heckuva lot more than you about what goes on in a Lodge, and I can tell you that we're not plotting anything, except maybe when to hold the next breakfast buffet.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
I believe that Freemasonry is a deception from the master of all lies, satan. Flame me if you want, but that is my belief. Nothing good has or will ever come out of things discussed in secret.

I believe people that people who come onto ATS denouncing Freemasonry, having no first hand knowledge of Freemasonry whatsoever, have been deceived by the father of all lies. Flame if you want, but nothing good has or will ever come out of anti-Masonry: just a casual look at the Inquisition, Nazis, and Communists attests to it.

Simple reasons for simple minds.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street

Rubbish. I think I’m better than you in a lot of ways. I can probably play several musical instruments better than you can; I believe I can write more clearly than you; and the odds are pretty good that I’m a lot better scuba diver than you are. Are you saying that I don’t have a right to think that I’m better than you are? I don’t know what it’s like in your country, but here in the United States of America, people can think what they choose, as long gas[sic] they don’t act on it.

And who cares if I “know what’s best for you and your family”, as long as I don’t try to impose what I “know” on you or your family, anyway? I don’t think the Masons (although, not being a Mason, I can’t say for sure) “know” what’s best for you, but who gives a rip? A whole bunch of preachers “know” what’s best for me, too, but I blow them off, since they’re absolutely powerless to control me -- just like the Masons are absolutely powerless to control you.

Off the street, you are very articulate and a good debater that's for sure but in this case you just don't know what you are talking about.
I was in DeMolay as a youth and have many relatives in the Masons thus I do have a little insight into their personality. And if you think that Masons in the banking community are absolutely powerless to control you at least in the economic sense; you are extremely naive.

But you really misunderstood my rant and put words in my mouth. I am not particularly anti mason or other fraternal organizations per se. However I do resent government secrecy that I think takes place at places like Bohemian Grove, Trilateralcommision and the WTO and other exclusive clubs where ordinary citizens have no way of knowing what deals are cut that will affect their way of life.

You are welcome to come and sit in anytime with my band and show us your chops. But music to us is an art not a competition. Scuba diving competition??? I concede the point you make about writing but I'm working on it.

[edit on 11-3-2006 by whaaa]

Originally posted by whaaa
And if you think that Masons in the banking community are absolutely powerless to control you at least in the economic sense; you are extremely naive.

But don't you see the fallacy in that sort of logic? You guys keep saying "Masons this, Masons that", insinuating that everyone who has ever done something wrong in their life is automatically some sort of covert Mason.

What about the NON-Masons in the banking community. Surely they outnumber the Masons a hundred to one at least, and therefore would have the power to cancel out anything a couple of Masons may want to do.

Same thing in government. Everything was hunky dory when the majority of government positions was filled by Masons. Washington, Revere, Hancock, Franklin, etc., all did a pretty damn good job. Isn't it at least interesting that it was only when the NON-Masons became the majority, that everything began to go to hell in a handbasket?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by whaaa
And if you think that Masons in the banking community are absolutely powerless to control you at least in the economic sense; you are extremely naive.

But don't you see the fallacy in that sort of logic? You guys keep saying "Masons this, Masons that", insinuating that everyone who has ever done something wrong in their life is automatically some sort of covert Mason.

?

What are you on about? I didn't say that!

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by whaaa
And if you think that Masons in the banking community are absolutely powerless to control you at least in the economic sense; you are extremely naive.

But don't you see the fallacy in that sort of logic? You guys keep saying "Masons this, Masons that", insinuating that everyone who has ever done something wrong in their life is automatically some sort of covert Mason.

What about the NON-Masons in the banking community. Surely they outnumber the Masons a hundred to one at least, and therefore would have the power to cancel out anything a couple of Masons may want to do.

Same thing in government. Everything was hunky dory when the majority of government positions was filled by Masons. Washington, Revere, Hancock, Franklin, etc., all did a pretty damn good job. Isn't it at least interesting that it was only when the NON-Masons became the majority, that everything began to go to hell in a handbasket?

So you agree there's good and evil on both sides. And sometimes, no wait, it is more than likely (and I believe it to be true) that there are evil ones with tremendous wealth and power who work behind doors not revealing themselves to the public manipulating and pulling the strings of all types of governments at home and abroad. So it is us the "normal" citizens and you, the "special" Mason types. See how great is labeling? It creates division and conflict.

But oh yes, the NWO is all about Conflicts and pushing their Order out of Chaos drivel into our political and personal affairs.

Order out of Chaos. Doesn't that ring a bell for you masons?