Official State Bird: bluebird / Official State God: Jesus Christ

In an effort to become more like Iran, last Thursday ,House Concurrent Resolution 13 was introduced into the Missouri state legislature which would name Christianity the "Official State Religion" of the show-me state.

One might think that the fact that the US is involved in a global war with religious fanatics who believe that their faith is the "one true faith" and that there is no god but their god, might have the effect of helping our leaders see that there are some very dangerous risks in naming any religion "the official religion", but the wise congressmen of Missouri weren't slowed down one little bit. The punch line for this joke of a congressional resolution is that it expressedly does not not protect minority religions, but "protects the majority's right to express their religious beliefs." If you've ever spent 10 minutes in Missouri, you'd know that if there's one thing that is NOT needed there, it's special protections for Christians. In fact, if you happen to live in certain towns in Central Missouri, (and not small towns, either), and you for some reason choose not to express your faith in the Christian God loudly and often, you are apt to be questioned by your neighbors, visited by local clergy, and in some cases have your name published in the local newspaper as an athiest or even your home vandalized. I've seen that very thing happen to a divorced woman who moved to Rolla, Missouri, thinking that the small-town atmosphere would be healthier for her children. She's living on the North Side of Chicago today.

Another interesting story that hit the news last week puts the issue of an "official state religion" in stark relief:

In Colorado, Congressman Tom Tancredo has supported a law that would prosecute churches who help illegal aliens in any way. That means if a family shows up on the doorstep of a church, hungry and ailing, the church would be required by law to demand to see proof that the family is not in America illegally. I must have missed the part in the New Testament where Christ says you're supposed to help the poor, but only if they have a Green Card. In fact, can you imagine anything less Christian than turning away someone in need just because they're on the wrong side of the border? And this, in a nutshell, is the most fatal flaw of the entire "faith-based" social program. There is Faith and there is Government. In many cases, no, in MOST cases, they are in direct conflict. When Christ threw the money-changers out of the temple, or when He said "render unto Caeser what is Caesar's..." He was most certainly talking about the separation of Church and State. It may well be the purpose of the Government to maintain the integrity of the borders, but it is certainly the purpose of the Christian Church to ignore those borders, even to render those borders meaningless in the eyes of God. As much as the theofascists of America would like to believe that America is God's Chosen Land, it's pretty clear to anyone who's spent any time reading scripture that God's love doesn't recognize the temporal borders of man.

The hangover from the reign of the Religious Right is slowly starting to lift from the American citizenry. Slowly, but inexorably, there are clear signs that the theofascism that's been rampant in this country in the last decades is losing its hold on the American psyche. But this will only make the James Dobsons, Pat Robertsons, Rick Santorums more desparate as they lose their grip on the Nation. They're not going to go quietly onto the scrap-pile of history, to take their rightful place next to the pro-slavery groups, the KKK, and other remnants of anti-American fanaticism. But go they will, because the strength of America, of our system, and the genius of the framework the founding fathers gave us, is our ability to reject the absolutist, authoritarian, inhuman elements of society that would harm or enslave some of us just to prop up their own fanatical beliefs in the best cases, and their own lust for power in the worst.

The Christian Supremacy Law in Missouri will certainly fail, but let it stand as a warning to the rest of us that sick members of society inevitably try to seize power. Just as they did in 1930's Germany, 1950's Soviet Union, 1960's China. But the human spirit, allowed even the merest crack of truth, will inevitably triumph. And it will again in America.

The only question is how bad it will have to get in the mean time.


[edit on 3/6/2006 by vuoto]

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Official State religion? How is that constitutional? Or do they expect it to be struck down by the SCOTUS but want to do it anyway to 'profess their faith'?

Do you have the documentation for this resolution?

Here is a pdf version of a HCR #13, but I think that this is a federal one on a different matter.


Here is a nice little news article about the one you are talking about.

Here's a link to the official resolution:

www.house.mo.gov...

Officially it states, "Resolves that voluntary prayer in public schools, religious displays on public property, and the recognition of a Christian God are not a coalition of church and state. "

It's down the crapper, people. All we can do is watch it circle as it flushes...

Once again, vuoto obfuscates the facts. The resolution reads:

Resolves that voluntary prayer in public schools, religious displays on public property, and the recognition of a Christian God are not a coalition of church and state.

This in no way calls for an establishment of an official religion or God. You should be ashamed.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
This in no way calls for an establishment of an official religion or God. You should be ashamed.

You don't think a bill (a government proceeding) that recognizes Christianity as the official religion of the state (a government entity) constitutes establishment of an official religion?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
This in no way calls for an establishment of an official religion or God. You should be ashamed.

You don't think a bill (a government proceeding) that recognizes Christianity as the official religion of the state (a government entity) constitutes establishment of an official religion?

Although the language doesn't specifically say "official religion", the resolution is certainly a threat to separation of church and state, and is therefore unconstitutional. If Christianity is the only religion mentioned in any resolution of this type, it's arguable whether or not that exclusivity establishes Christianity as an official religion to the exclusion of others, but in my opinion that argument is irrelevant given the blatant unconstitutionality of it all.

The title of the post may be a tad over the top, but not shamefully so. Certainly this unconstitutional resolution is a big step toward establishing an official state religion, even if it doesn't do so explicitly.

It is a sham...

the very first line is a blatant agendized lie...
Our forefathers recognozed our "Christian" god is so misleading it is stunning that a christian based move would lie about it...

Our forefathers were not a specific religion, and although god is mentioned in many documents... they were deists, not "Christian".
in other words... they only made claim to a belief in a higher power, and were careful to not get specific... I think we should take that as the hint it was...

"we didn't go there, so dont you either" was the clear message... of our forefathers...

I have no issue with school prayer or meditation... (as long as it isn't specific)
recognition on our money, and sacred historical documents. (as long as it isn't specific)
and with any other statement, as long as no specific recognition is required...

But you will never see it that way... Christians fundamentalists dont want equal rights for all religions, they want to be the religion... and so they will only accomplish a basic statement of
"if you are Christian, you are welcome here, go away jew, muslim, and buddist" which is why this will flush rather quickly...

(edited for possible derogatory wording)

[edit on 8-3-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Christians fundys dont want equal rights for all religions, they want to be the religion...

Although the term 'fundys' is a bit derogatory IMO, I have to agree with your statement.

I believe the light of Christianity was largely extinguished when Constantine made it the official religion of Rome, and it has never really recovered on a worldwide scale. It is hard for many Christians to see that separation of church and state is good for both the church and the state. Keeping them separate not only preserves religious diversity, it prevents the "sponsored" religion from being watered-down and corrupted by worldly affairs and power-hungry leaders.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You don't think a bill (a government proceeding) that recognizes Christianity as the official religion of the state (a government entity) constitutes establishment of an official religion?

Please show me where it says anything about Christianity being the official religion. It's not in that bill.

Resolves that voluntary prayer in public schools, religious displays on public property, and the recognition of a Christian God are not a coalition of church and state.

www.house.mo.gov...

If anything this bill would uphold the First Amendment right of the free expression of religion. It would please me more if it the world Christian were left out, because Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God, but the bill does not exclude anyone. The sad fact is that it is Christianity and its expression that is under attack in America, not Judaism or Islam, or Wicca, or Buddhism or whatever else you might have.

It is the word that is the issue...
it is also what makes the silent minority not feel included...

Why cant they just leave that one word out, and the rest makes sense and is even fair...

I suspect that it is that very word that is the issue to the ones supporting it though, and i doubt they would drop it, just to get the issue passed.

I also feel that the mention of a specific god in ANY state law is against the wishes of our forefathers.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The sad fact is that it is Christianity and its expression that is under attack in America, not Judaism or Islam, or Wicca, or Buddhism or whatever else you might have.

Strict adherence to the separation of church and state is not an attack on Christianity, it only seems that way because Christianity is the only religion that has any chance of becoming an "official" state religion in the US today. If the members of our supreme court were all Buddhists, and they started making decisions leading toward establishing the US as a Buddhist state, you can bet that the "attack on Christianity" you perceive would become an "attack on Buddhism" overnight.

Of course, a US Supreme Court comprised entirely of Buddhists is implausible... but it is interesting to contemplate exactly why it is implausable.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Please show me where it says anything about Christianity being the official religion. It's not in that bill.

Ok. Grady, use whatever words you will, but many of us know that a state's "recognition of the Christian God" is one step toward the country's establishment of the Christian religion.

It would please me more if it the world Christian were left out, because Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God, but the bill does not exclude anyone.

By recognizing "Christian God" the Muslims are not excluded? Why not say Christian/Muslim God, then? Why not just God? And what about atheists? Wiccans? They are not excluded? Where is the recognition of the Wiccan Gods and Goddesses?? They are excluded. What about the fact that recognizing any God by the state excludes atheists altogether? They just don't matter?

The sad fact is that it is Christianity and its expression that is under attack in America, not Judaism or Islam, or Wicca, or Buddhism or whatever else you might have.

Christianity is under attack for a good reason! It's trying to seep its way into every aspect of life in these United States! It's only a defensive attack to keep Christianity from controlling everything it can possibly get its hands on! Only the supremacy and complete infiltration of Christianity is under attack. And this bill proves it! They must have the word Christian in there. To make some sort of claim of their righteousness.

If the Christian religion would just do their thing and leave everyone else alone, there would be no reason for the defense, but they seem to think they have a right to permeate every aspect of life. I'm sick to death of the onslaught of Christianity in everything.

And it's moves like this bill that make non-Christians hate Christianity SO MUCH! You don't want to be attacked? Then go to church, pray, worship, read the bible, get a freakin' Christmas tree and leave other people alone!

When legislation is used to bring the religious issue into the life of any state in this country is an issue of mixing religion with politics.

Plain and simple.

If the state recognized Christianity as the religion in the state is indeed making the religion official.

Plain and simple.

Whenever politics and religion gets mix with each the constitution gets a new interpretation of what it means separation of church and state.

Actually what it means is to protect individuals from the government dictating the way their should worship their gods.

Something many has forgotten through the years in pursue of one state religion.

This is what the First Amendment says:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

No where does it say that people cannot express their religious beliefs in public or on public property. These assertions are gross distortions of the Constitution. A nativity scene or a representation of the Ten Commandments or a schoool prayer come nowhere near an establishment of a religion, but have everything to do with the free expression thereof and that includes those who are not Christian. The display of the Ten Commandments is not so much an expression of religion, but more an acknowledgement of our cultural and philosophical heritage.

But all of this is just a distraction from the fact that the original post is unmitigated BS.



[edit on 2006/3/8 by GradyPhilpott]

Become more like Iran? Last time I checked the US was founded on Christian principles and it was anti-christians that threw it out. Anyways, you don't have to worry, if you don't want god in your life then ignore it and then face the consequences later.

The problem is that recognizing that individuals can express their religious views publicly will bring a very wide interpretation of what is allowed in public view.

I grew up with nativity in the town plaza in Christmas and religious expressions of Christian roots in public schools back home and processions of faith during the pass over in the streets.

I also witnessed in middle school in the seventies how the protestant groups started to abuse their way into the public schools grounds and preaching became a problem during school times.

Now that was back in the seventies when everybody could scream you are going to hell if you do not repent everywhere we went.

So how can allowing the worship of any religion in public grounds is not going to bring back the abuses of the seventies and the religious fanatics that will be pushing their way in public life.

Just a though from somebody that remember what happen when she was growing up in the fight between Catholics and Protestants in the seventies in Puerto Rico.

It was hell!!!!!!!!

[edit on 8-3-2006 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
I also witnessed in middle school in the seventies how the protestant groups started to abuse their way into the public schools grounds and preaching became a problem during school times.

Now that was back in the seventies when everybody could scream you are going to hell if you do not repent everywhere we went.[edit on 8-3-2006 by marg6043]

I'm really sorry that you had to go through all of that... But please, don't think of all christians as religious zealots out to brainwash the public. Now don't get me wrong, I want to spread the gospel and bring more people to God if they want to get to know Him. But it is how we do this that causes so much anxiety and fear.

Some christians believe in preaching hellfire and tolerance in public places, and I'm highly against this. When Jesus was gathering followers, did he threaten people with hell? No, instead he preached love and understanding. Jesus was the original preacher of love and light, so as christians we should follow suit.

The ways in which christians should spread the gospel are through missionaries. Missionaries can allow people to choose whether or not they want to try christianity out, because the preaching is done in a private place where hostility is forbidden. Missionaries have done wonders around the world, providing food, water, relief, supplies, money, and bibles to people across the Earth. The Christian Children's Fund has donated $128 million to kids in 33 different countries, and thats just one missionary. The church that I go to has set up three missionaries in Africa, where people can get three square meals a day and learn about God. All three missionaries were extremely successful and each of our churches in Africa have well over 400 members. To hear more, visit here: TJC

Now, I'm not saying that every single christian should go out and set up missionaries, but something very practical is to buy some bibles (they're pretty cheap) or get them for free from your church. Then, take these bibles and go from house to house in your neighborhood, politely asking if they would like one. This way, people can learn more about a religion, or decide to follow a different path. I've done this twice so far with a few friends, and a lot of people requested bibles. I'd say that 7/10 of them kindly accepted.

TheBlueSoldier

I understand the difference into spreading the Gospel and abusing religion, that's what happen back when I was a teen growing up in a time when the Island was predominant Catholic and the Protestant was making their way to win followers.

It was truly a fight almost physical.

People has the right to spread the word and to be able to worship any way they want.

What we have to be very careful off is the abuses that can happened by what we know as religious fanatics.

The sad part of the story is that Christianity in America is increasingly represented by the theofascist fanatics.

The assertion that the United States was "founded on Christian principles" is simply not true. The Unites States was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, which put forth the concepts of personal liberty, the importance of reason and the ideal of brotherhood. So few people realize that many of the founding fathers came to America specifically to escape the Jim Dobsons and Pat Robertsons of their day, who were creating an atmosphere in Europe of authoritarianism and slavery to dogma.

The point that so many are missing is the inherant incompatibility of Faith and Government. By definition, Religion and the State will always be at odds. Any cross-involvement of the two is destructive of both.

I offered the example of the law in Colorado that prohibits helping illegal immigrants, and the threat by Rep. Tancredo to prosecute churches for giving aid to those illegal immigrants. Caesar has law and God has law. We know which is more important, and this is far from the only situation where Caesar's law and God's law are in conflict. No where in the Bible does Christ say that we should only help the poor who have Green Cards.

I think we've finally seen the high-water mark of the theofascists in America, and we're entering a period where the Religious fanatics who have hijacked so much of public discourse in the last few decades will crawl back under their rocks. Oh, they'll always be with us, but the public's willingness to let them call the tune is starting to recede. Thank God.