Holland to allow ‘baby euthanasia’

Originally posted by LostSailor

Originally posted by bsl4doc
What could you say? That we are animals as well and are subject to the laws of nature?

Speak for yourself. I am no animal.

We all are is the bottom line.

As noted above, the inital intent of this law is being twisted into some sort of NAZI era eugenics theme where if the slightest thing is not perfect, the child is going to be put down. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. We are talking about infants with incurable / terminal diseases and are basicaly living a life where they know nothing but pain. THAT is what they are discussing......

Originally posted by LostSailor

[1.] I am not a religious man... Just so you understand this. It's something that can't be explained. You either know it or you don't. Tough to think that something can't be explained isn't it?

[2.] You really can't differentiate yourself from an animal? I must be living in a fantastical world of make believe...

1. If you are not religious then exactly what is this state of being that cannot be explained? Surely you can make some mortal attempt to define this statement for everyone who is unable to understand your abstract yet non-religious concept.

2. If you are not an animal, what are you? A vegetable?

Originally posted by FredT

As noted above, the inital intent of this law is being twisted into some sort of NAZI era eugenics theme where if the slightest thing is not perfect, the child is going to be put down. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. We are talking about infants with incurable / terminal diseases and are basicaly living a life where they know nothing but pain. THAT is what they are discussing......

Ahhh, the point is such laws are how NAZI era eugenics began. As you are in the medical field I think your first reaction is to defend such action. However, in my opinion the current medical profession seems to have a tainted view of human life. Death is common place in that world and is far too easily accepted.

Your perspective may be less than objective. (no offense meant)

I must also admitt my perspective on the medical field is also tainted. Far too many "healers" have become doctors of death.

I am not a religious man... Just so you understand this. It's something that can't be explained. You either know it or you don't. Tough to think that something can't be explained isn't it?

You really can't differentiate yourself from an animal? I must be living in a fantastical world of make believe...

No, it's not hard to understand that something can't be explained. We know the mechanism of the flagella, but we can't explain the nature of the centrosome very well. We know protein signaling pathways are responsible for cell growth and division, but we can't explain certain pathways exactly. What you are saying, however, is that you are not a mammal, not an organism, not an animal, despite every single biological classification to the contrary. Yes, you have a higher consciousness than other animals, being as you are a human. However, the presence of a frontal love (created by NATURAL evolution), does not preclude you from classification in the kingdom animalia. Therefore, unless you are saying you lack the need for oxygen, food, water, key minerals, and that you do not use respiration, homeostasis, etc., then you are an animal. Plain and simple.

"Animal" is not a derogatory term in any way. It is simply a means of classifying organism with general characteristic similarities. You and an ape are indistinguishable on a cellular level, but on both the molecular and organismal level you are different, classifying you in different species and families, but NOT different kingdoms.

~MFP

Yes , mankind can be barbaric as Lostsailor is trying to say. There is a "something" that does set humans above "the animals". Once upon on a time it was called "hope" and "mercy" but murdering infants places us with the "jackels" who consume each other after birth.

"baby euthanasia" is the lower form of the species there bsl4doc.

Thermopolis,

Please do not speak on matter which you have not studied. Killing the young is most certainly not exclusive to "jackels", or any type of mammal for that matter, and has been practiced in humans as well as animals for millenia. As a previous poster stated, when a foal is born, the other horses will take notice if something is different or wrong and kill the foal, thus strengthening the genetic pool. The same occurs in nearly all species in which the parents care for the young for a period of time. I'm not at all stating that we should "thin the herd", so to speak, in our own gene pool. What I AM suggesting, though, is that there is a certain thresh hold in humans relating to mutations and deformities. Life isn't as black and white as you would like it to be. Not every child born with abnormalities will live to maturity, and not every child born without abnormalities will, either. Doctors do their best to analyze deformities and provide parents with every option possible. If you read the original article, you will see that it was the parents who asked for the euthanasia. These "doctors of death", as you called them earlier, are non-existent. There are no doctors peddling death in obstetric wards, begging parents to off their children. There ARE doctors, however, with enough compassion to see that a child who may only live for a few painful weeks or months should be allowed the same dignity as an elderly person who is in the last thralls of cancer or other terminal disease. If a parent asks for such a treatment, and the doctor feels it is within the bounds of reason to say the infant is in mortal pain and will not survive, I see no reason not to honor the parents wishes for their child to go gently into that soft night.

It's a sad truth that we will never remove ourselves from nature. Nature is not perfect, just as it's processes are not perfect. There will always be miscarriages, unsuccessful pregnancies, and birth defects. Whether we choose to see this as a natural part of life and not prolong the pain, or whether we take the religious zealots' path and try to defy nature's will, that is up to each individual. It is no one's place, not government, not religious figure, not anyone, to make a blanket statement as to how a parent should deal with their own offspring's incessant pain and fatal disorders.

~MFP

First - My belief is not based on religion. I have not stepped foot inside a church in many years.

I believe that abortion as a matter of convenience is murder. To expect me to condone it would be ludicrous. I would have to believe that infanticide is OK. I instead believe it is the worst form of murder because the victim is defenseless.

Why do I believe this? In college in the late 60’s and early 70’s I knew 2 girls who were dating friends that had abortions for no reason other than birth control. Within 30 days both girls started having bouts of severe depression and had to seek medical help. One attempted suicide on multiple occasions. Prior to their abortions they were both pro-abortion. Now they are both pro-life advocates. They tell me that women need to be warned about the emotional consequences killing their own children. I thought long and hard about whether or not life begins at conception or birth. Logic lead me to believe that since there is no way of knowing in advance what the future holds in store for the child that killing a fetus in the first trimester is exactly the same as killing a newborn. Therefore it is murder.

Had I been aborted I would not have had the choice of whether to live or die so I would have been a murder victim. Because I was born with genetic problems requiring a complete transfusion among other things I probably would have been euthanized under this evil law. I would have been murdered by my own parents with the help of an evil doctor. My whole life would have been stolen from me because I do not have a perfect body.

When you ask me to condone abortion, you are literally asking that I approve of infanticide! What kind of parent would not willingly sacrifice their own life for their child? What kind of parent would kill their children because they are an inconvenience? This is a very dangerous road! If it is OK to kill an infant who can not choose for themselves then how big of a step is it to killing handicapped or diseased adults against their will because they are an inconvenience to their family or an expense to the government? 1984 has arrived and it is very ugly.

God save us all!!!!

i hate anti-progressionists

let us conform, as a species, to the animal kingdom. let us simplify, learn. and perhaps, humanity will make progress...for we are worse than every other animal.

"What kind of parent would not willingly sacrifice their own life for their child?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ummmm..... a women, who, looking into her the eyes of her LIVING children, who's experience has already told them that there is noone who would be willing to step up to the plate and care for them in her absence??

unfortunately, in this imperfect world, many decisions aren't a matter of morally right or morally wrong, but rather, the least of two evils. women are nortorious for ignoring their own needs while overfocusing on the needs of the children, the husband, ect. ect. But, very early in my children's lives I learned that "friends" will quickly fly the coop, and maybe even family, and well, the foster care system doesn't even come close to a substitute for mom. your children depend on you, and therefore, they depend on you to stay healthy, not to mention living, so you can meet that overly demanding livestyle that they will need you living! so, don't expect every living mother to be willing to forfeit her life for an unborn baby.....many have others depending on her also.

hey man........what does that mean

Originally posted by ivansusanin
hey man........what does that mean

if you're addressing me, well, I think you can assume a few things from my post above...

mainly, that while my children were little, and dependant on me, umm.....no I was not willing to risk my own life to bring another child into this world.

you can also assume, by all the posts that I've posted concerning the right to life crowd that well. I am kind of concerned about the amount of legislation that is managing to get through legislative and executive branched restricting abortion that in no way consider the health and well being of the mother. because well, what women wouldn't be willing to give up her life for her child, right.....well, I just answered that question!! one that has virtually raised her kids alone, learned the hard way that the foster care system is one heck of a big joke!! and one that has been too sick to care for them adequately and had to watch the consequenses of her weaknesses.

you can also assume that I believe that many in this right to life crowd are staunch bush supporters and were all gun hoe about the invasion of Iraq. and for those who were, well, you can also assume that I think that they are the biggest hypocrits around!!! they expect something from a women, that they are not willing to do themselves! they expect the women to have faith in God, or whatever higher power that is susposed to intervene on her behalf, and allow "his will" to be!! but, when it comes to mythological missles, and threats to their lives, and their lifestyles, well, all of a sudden that faith isn't susposed to be that strong, who cares what God's will is, and well, life isn't that sacred after all....let the missles fly!!!

and last but not least, you can assume, that if I am ever in a position even close to that which terri was in, and these strangers, who don't know me, or my familyl, start meddling and cause manage to delay my death when God has ordained it to come, ummm....if there is a power on this earth, or in the heavens above, or even the hell below that will enable me to do it, I will haunt these people for day and night till the day I am released from this earth!

Originally posted by Blaine91555

First - My belief is not based on religion. I have not stepped foot inside a church in many years.

I believe that abortion as a matter of convenience is murder. To expect me to condone it would be ludicrous. I would have to believe that infanticide is OK. I instead believe it is the worst form of murder because the victim is defenseless.

Why do I believe this? In college in the late 60’s and early 70’s I knew 2 girls who were dating friends that had abortions for no reason other than birth control. Within 30 days both girls started having bouts of severe depression and had to seek medical help. One attempted suicide on multiple occasions. Prior to their abortions they were both pro-abortion. Now they are both pro-life advocates. They tell me that women need to be warned about the emotional consequences killing their own children. I thought long and hard about whether or not life begins at conception or birth. Logic lead me to believe that since there is no way of knowing in advance what the future holds in store for the child that killing a fetus in the first trimester is exactly the same as killing a newborn. Therefore it is murder.

Had I been aborted I would not have had the choice of whether to live or die so I would have been a murder victim. Because I was born with genetic problems requiring a complete transfusion among other things I probably would have been euthanized under this evil law. I would have been murdered by my own parents with the help of an evil doctor. My whole life would have been stolen from me because I do not have a perfect body.

When you ask me to condone abortion, you are literally asking that I approve of infanticide! What kind of parent would not willingly sacrifice their own life for their child? What kind of parent would kill their children because they are an inconvenience? This is a very dangerous road! If it is OK to kill an infant who can not choose for themselves then how big of a step is it to killing handicapped or diseased adults against their will because they are an inconvenience to their family or an expense to the government? 1984 has arrived and it is very ugly.

God save us all!!!!

The post topic is euthanizing an infant in constant pain with a life expectancy of less than three years, not abortion.

And can we ratchet down the hysteria?

[edit on 3/9/2006 by Bibliophile]

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Thermopolis,

Please do not speak on matter which you have not studied.
~MFP

This is exactly what I would expect a "doctor" to arrogantly say to us "common" folks. Sorry but "education" does not equal qualification to "think" for those "lower" than yourselves.

FYI........I am rather highly educated even by "elite" standards.

There are many, many, "doctors of death" extinguishing life where ever they can. Abortion slaughterhouses, left to die homes (nursing homes), and now hosptal's in Holland where children are murdered for having defects.

Those "health?" experts who seem to always be able to predict the future "majically" always "know what's better" for us common folk.

Oh let this one die because................(blank)..........

All medical services should be dedicated to LIFE, not death.

Death should be of LAST resort not "Choice"...........

Originally posted by Bibliophile

The post topic is euthanizing an infant in constant pain with a life expectancy of less than three years, not abortion.

And can we ratchet down the hysteria?

[edit on 3/9/2006 by Bibliophile]

here it is again............predicting the future as if it were certain..............

Three years is a long time with modern genetic research.

I personally know several people who were predicted by docotrs to be dead 20 years ago. Medical degrees do not make you "Nostradamas"

This is exactly what I would expect a "doctor" to arrogantly say to us "common" folks. Sorry but "education" does not equal qualification to "think" for those "lower" than yourselves.

FYI........I am rather highly educated even by "elite" standards.

I was referring to your blanket statement about mercy killing being isolated only to human beings, which is not the case. Also, you leave most of us wondering if you truly are "highly educated"due to your grammar and syntax.

~MFP

Not to mention he spelled MAGIC with a friggin J.

I think the doc has a pretty good perspective here Therm. Are you saying that we should keep infants, dying of incurable, terrible diseases and birth defects alive just in case we have a major medical breakthrough in the comming years? Maybe we should start freezing dead people too!!!

You know...just in case...

First off, to understand what I am speaking about you will have to learn to think in the abstract. Drag your nose out of your books and think for yourself for a minute. I am just going to ramble on about my previous night. Maybe you can catch why I don't consider myself to be an "animal."

First, how many animals are able to converse across entire continents, and have a debate on the level that we are now? Remember, I am not talking about a science book here. I read your posts questioning my thought process, but decided I didn't have the time to respond. I had to get some homework done for my Diesel Engineering class. I Decided I would go over to my girlfriends house, get some work done, and have a few drinks. Hmmmm... Hmmmm... Sweet sweet warm whiskey.

On the way I was thinking about why I don't consider myself to be an animal. As I was thinking about this I was watching cars drive by. Buildings, shopping centers, bridges, statues, monuments, a library... Boats floating around on the bay. An airplane flying overhead full of human beings going Lord knows where. There where children playing together in the snow at the middle school I drove by.

Also, as I was driving I was listening to the radio. "That Smell" by Lynard Skynard was playing... How many animals out there listen to music? Make music? Invest entire lives in the arts? Express themselves through visual stimuli?

When I got to my girlfriends house I went to the restroom. Actually, the idea of a manmade house even got me thinking... But back to the restroom. I looked in the mirror and knew I was looking at myself. Isn't it proven that this ability -Self Awareness- is common to only orangoutangs and chimpanzees? Oh, and humans... I will not try and say I don't believe in evolution my man. Remember I said I am not religious. At least I belong to no organized religion.

After finishing up my homework that I needed to get done... My girlfriend and I made love. Not to reproduce. We made love just for the emotional bond that ensues. The companionship. Just because we can. I know this isn't exclusive to human beings... But in the animal kingdom, only a few animals do something like this. Only the ones that are just below us on the evolutionary ladder.

The whole idea of me saying I am not an animal stemmed from this comment...

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Actually, one of the first purposes of medicine was herbal abortions. Animals do it, and our ancestors here in Italy and Greece noted which plants the animals ate and used the same herbs.

I don't care if animals do it... I am not an animal in the context that you refer to. My self awareness, empathy for others, higher intelligence, and emotional magnitude separate me from even the closest of evolutionary cousins in the animal kingdom.

Because we are technically animals that means it's OK to act like animals? Do what animals do? We don't have something that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom? If we do, we don't have an obligation because of this, to act differently than animals?

Science will always conflict with my thoughts. That's fine... Science is not always the answer. Facts and knowledge are not always the answer. Sometimes you just have to look inside and think for yourself.

You guys asked... I am just trying to explain why i feel the way I do. I never literally meant that I didn't think I was an animal. It was just assumed that was what I meant. I am only a sailor, taking classes trying to upgrade my engineering license. I am no scientist, nor claim to be, or even claim to think like one. But, you can agree with me Right? Agree that there is something that separates us from the rest of the animals on this planet?

As stated in an earlier post, I agree with the act of euthanasia in this case. The only thing I worry about, is that there may be some people out there that take it to far. I, personally, am worried that some time in the future it may be OK to euthanize a baby for simpler reasons. Reasons like eye color, unattractiveness, mental deficiencies, etc. In cases like this I would not be OK with it.

Oh well... Go ahead and flame me for thinking the way I do. I will not change my mind. We all learn what we want to from each other. You can dismiss my thoughts if you want to... That's the beauty of being a human being.

*peace*

thanks for clarifying man

Yeah, I think we can all agree that we are on a different level of intelligence than animals are. But does that make us any less animals? Lets also keep in mind that animals are not destroying the planet with all of our wonderful technology.

Your fear of what may happen is irrelevant. We are here and now. Do you think Henry Ford ever considered that his automobile invention would someday ruin our precious protection from the sun? Its way off topic, but you get my point. There is no way of knowing which direction things may go. All we can do is remain outspoken about the things that really are wrong, not the things that may come later. We cannot live in fear of the doors our technological advances may open. We can only remain firm in our beliefs on the present.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Yeah, I think we can all agree that we are on a different level of intelligence than animals are. But does that make us any less animals?

Not in the technical definition of an animal. I was just stating why I don't claim to be an animal in an abstract sense... I don't really think I am not technically an animal. Certainly not a vegetable as someone was so quick to make a smart remark about earlier. I do think there is something more than just intelligence that separates from your everyday common animal though. Still can't put my finger on that one.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Your fear of what may happen is irrelevant. We are here and now. Do you think Henry Ford ever considered that his automobile invention would someday ruin our precious protection from the sun? Its way off topic, but you get my point. There is no way of knowing which direction things may go. All we can do is remain outspoken about the things that really are wrong, not the things that may come later. We cannot live in fear of the doors our technological advances may open. We can only remain firm in our beliefs on the present.

I don't live in fear of technology at all. In fact, I believe wholeheartedly that our superior intellect will eventually solve any problems that come our way. Hehe... For some reason ol' Bob Marley comes to mind here. "Every little thing will be alright." Bless that mans soul.

But... Sorry my mind tends to drift... Why is my fear of what may happen irrelevant? It's not wise to think about the future? That could also be something that separates us from most animals. Right?



Sorry, I just love that photo.

*edit*

BTW... I am up in Traverse City Michigan... I'm not sure where Cereal City is though. Can't wait to get out of this hellhole of a state.

[edit on 9-3-2006 by LostSailor]