Holland to allow ‘baby euthanasia’, page 4
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reply posted on 7-3-2006 @ 05:43 PM by Bibliophile
Originally posted by pepsi78

You are rong because a simple factor.

There might be medical brake trhu it may be 5 years it may be 10 years who knows what might show up, who knows what is discovered that would help them, untill antibiotics arived people would die from a regular infection, not the case anymore, there is better life for people with AIDS, being HIV positive now is not what it use to be, people got more hope better medication.

So really taking a life with out knowing what the future brings makes you a killer.

So if they can survive for a few years nothing is too much.

I can see it, doctors grabing old people on the street "grab him, he is schisofrenic there is no help for him he just tortures his self, give him a shot, let's help him"

If this is what people call help then I dont know what the world is turning in to.


Concerning the OP issue, which some posters have strayed from, using future medical breakthroughs as an excuse to prolong the suffering of someone now living is a poor reason to deny humane euthanasia. We must deal with the here and now, not the here and when.

These flights of fancy regarding what may happen in the medical field are pointless exercises in emotionalism. There are literally thousands of diseases and disabilities. Only a fraction of them are being studied and rarely are the very obscure disorders being researched.

This child had a rare disorder. Who are you to assume her disease will be cured? Do you know if it is even being researched?

More importantly, do you care about the suffering she would have endured while waiting for your cure? Do you care about what her parents would have endured watching their child suffer? It does not appear so. In your eyes, her suffering and that of her parents is irrelevant to you as long as your personal values are respected.

Once again, you want your personal values applied to the rest of the planet. This is completely unrealistic and very presumptuous.

I applaud the Dutch for their insight and their courage. They are members of a truly civilized society.


reply posted on 7-3-2006 @ 05:59 PM by pepsi78

Concerning the OP issue, which some posters have strayed from, using future medical breakthroughs as an excuse to prolong the suffering of someone now living is a poor reason to deny humane euthanasia.

No this is u'r interpretation, and it's not an excuse, it's a factor that needs to be taken in cosideration and it hapend before with cancer pacients and with aids paicents.
You never know how it pops out, science is unpredictable so if there is a shreed of hope I dont see how this thing can be positive.


These flights of fancy regarding what may happen in the medical field are pointless exercises in emotionalism.

So people with cronical ilnes do not got any hope at all from the medical research?is that what u'r saying?that it's all a bunch of crap?that scientists working hard to get to a point to stop aids, cancer are just a bunch of idiotic figures because they are not going to make anithng posible?
I see.


There are literally thousands of diseases and disabilities. Only a fraction of them are being studied and rarely are the very obscure disorders being researched.

The medical research is constantly being researched in diferent branches, or do you think there are only 2 medical researchers in the whole world?
There are people that study viruses from a to z there are people researching genetics there are people researching anithing that has to do with medical research.
We got now the option to an electronic hart so even if u'r hart has problems it can be replaced with one that will tick forever even after you die, there are people with out legs that can walk with special design artificial implants, u'r atitude is just one way, not very opened minded.

Holand also offers prostitution(I dont mind it, it's the wifes)
Holand also offers the use of drugs of certain type.

[edit on 7-3-2006 by pepsi78]

[edit on 7-3-2006 by pepsi78]



reply posted on 7-3-2006 @ 06:14 PM by Bibliophile
Originally posted by pepsi78

These flights of fancy regarding what may happen in the medical field are pointless exercises in emotionalism.


{1.} So people with cronical ilnes do not got any hope at all from the medical research?is that what u'r saying?that it's all a bunch of crap?that scientists working hard to get to a point to stop aids, cancer are just a bunch of idiotic figures because they are not going to make anithng posible? I see.

There are literally thousands of diseases and disabilities. Only a fraction of them are being studied and rarely are the very obscure disorders being researched.


{2.} The medical research is constantly being researched in diferent branches, or do you think there are only 2 medical researchers in the whole world?

There are people that study viruses from a to z there are people researching genetics there are people researching anithing that has to do with medical research.

We got now the option to an electronic hart so even if u'r hart has problems it can be replaced with one that will tick forever even after you die, there are people with out legs that can walk with special design artificial implants...

{3.} u'r atitude is just one way, not very opened minded.


1. I did not make these statements. You made spurious assumptions based on my opinions.

2. Indeed.

3. I submit that you are the individual here who is not open-minded.

I have not posted from a sadistic point of view, but some here have done so. You would do better to debate with them the wisdom of allowing suffering to continue unabated when humane relief is available.


reply posted on 7-3-2006 @ 10:29 PM by FredT
Its been an interesting thread so far. i thought I would throw in my own 2 cents worth.

First off: I am an advocate of euthanasia. I firmly belive in the absence of meaningfull hope or recovery individulas or families of individuals should have the right to put an end to pain and suffering felt by loved ones.

In this case we have many trigger words. Esp. when you mix "infants" with "euthanasia". The instinct to protect our little ones is strong, perhaps the strongest we may have and jus tthe title is to produce a knee jerk reaction because of this instinct.

That being said as many of you know, all of my 11 years as an RN have been spent in pediatric critical care. I have had the fortune and misfortune to witness time and time again both extremes when faced with a child that was going to die often in the most painfull away any of us could imagine.

Some families have elected to stop treatment and allow thier child to recieve pain medication and die in the love and warmth of thier parents embrace.

Others have chosen to maintain treatment often escalating it to the point where it hard to determine where the technology begins and the child ends. Alot of time, effort, emotion, and money can be spent on futility. Yes, I said money: Its a factor that few want to discuss but it is very relevant. How many people would flog thier child till the very end if they had to pay for it out of pocket?

However, in both cases, it was a choice by the prents. As you can tell from my description, which one I favor. I would favor the dying peacefully choice for my own 3 year old if faced with similar circumstances.

From the article:

If a child is untreatably ill,” Verhagen explained, “there can be horrendous suffering that makes the last few days or weeks of this child’s life unbearable. Now the question is: are you going to leave the child like that or are you going to prevent that suffering?” He went on: “Does the child have to sit it out until the end? We think that the answer is no. There can be circumstances where, under very strict conditions, if all the requirements are fulfilled, active ending of life can be an option — but only in cases of untreatable disease and unbearable suffering.”
www.timesonline.co.uk...


Many posters give the impression of goose stepping, jack booted types roaming infant wards and playing god, but that is simply not the case. Few of you can ever even come close to relating to the pain these little ones endure for the sake of life itself.

For those opposed to ending the pain and suffering of those with little or no hope, I have to ask you this: Are you making the judgement on whats based on thier needs or your own?


reply posted on 7-3-2006 @ 11:14 PM by dawnstar
"Why dont we make a rule, you cant pass 60 so you wont strugle, why dont we build procesing plants so you can have u'r satisfaction. "

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why, my grandmother lived well into her 80's and well, she didn't cry constantly because of the pain......

ah yes, that one little aspect of the whole picture that some are chosing to ignore... constant, never ending pain!!!

I don't think anyone here supports the idea of forcing someone out of this life, for whatever reason, simply because of their health problems. but well, there are some very sane, rational, quite able to voice their own preferences about the matter who, because of the prognosis of the disease along with the discomfort they are feeling, well, they would prefer to leave now. there are others, like this baby, who cannot speak for themselves, and thus are subject to the decisions of others. I would never, in a million years decide the fate of someone who was perfectly capable of communicating their own desires, but I would never stand in their way if they decided that the disease that was ravagine their body so overwelmingly overshadowed the positive aspects of their life to the point where they felt it was better to leave. and as for those who are not capable of speaking on their own behalf. who is better able to decide, loving family members and doctors, or us busybodies who appearantly have nothing better to do than to stick our noises where it more than like
doesn't belong and politicians who are more concerned where their next big contribution is coming from than the wellfare of the country or any of their constituants.

again, I will say, that with today's technology, I don't consider it humane to have a life at all costs approach to things. we could concievably keep people alive forever, if we chose to ignore the amount of pain these people would endure, then I think we would become more like monsters than we would be humane!

for a group that declares it is taking the moral highground, ummm......why are yous trying to cheat death? It is a natural step in life. and quite frankly, it is a gift from God. the pysical world is only a small fragment of creation, we are blind to so much while here not to mention limited. to entirely avoid death or to go to such extreme measure to avoid it for someone else it like trying to keep a child in kindergarten forever.

and if you want my opinion (please forgive the religious rantings), umm....only satan could benefit from having people stuck in the physical world....it would make them permantly his. and well, satan, the fallen angels and the rest of the gang, they thrive on our emotions....feed off them. or at least some of them....pain, suffering, dispair, hatred, hopelessness, increase them enough in the physical plane and who will create a feeding freenzy amounst them...they will grow stronger.

this is my belief, you have yours, neither can be proved or disproved. so, I guess either has about equal validity. you chose to believe that it is better to be alive, regardless of everything, I strongly disagree. neither can be debunked or supported unless we can peer beyond the viel into that unknown territory called death. is it oblivion, total nonbeing??? well I don't think there is pain in oblivion, do you? reincarnation, into another, hopefully heathy body....hey, sounds better to me! or maybe pearly gates, an the loving arms of the creator.

the right to life people don't want babies condemned at birth to a very early painful death, to be allowed to die.
they don't want others, like terri, who in all practical sense was dead, to be allowed to die.

you don't want people to be allowed to die.....life is sacred, it keeps people from escaping the illusion of this world and entering into the other realms.


reply posted on 7-3-2006 @ 11:54 PM by denial28
Ok first, allow me to speak as a person who has the most ability to talk right now about this very subject. (I have noticed that alot of people strongly opposed to pro choice, and compassionate killing, have never been faced with either of those situations)

I am almost 6 months pregnant at this point. At 12:35 AM EVERY night now, my daughter kicks me, has developed a sense of taste, a schedule, can hear the stories I read to my 3 year old every night, can blink and suck her thumbs.

In 2 more weeks, there's a very good chance she'd survive outside of the womb. I have heard the heartbeat, and seen her in the ultrasound. I am not for partial birth abortions whatsoever. I do know though for certain, that if this child were to be born with a disease that caused her to writhe in pain and agony, for the rest of her life, however long that would be, I could not make the conscious decision to carry on her life, expecting the only memories she would ever have, to be of pain and suffering. What kind of life is that for a child?

As a mothers instinct, it is pure torture to know your child is suffering and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it. Look at the animals in the wild.
I watched a program on wild horses, the mare dropped(gave birth to) a foal that seemed to be "Wrong" somehow. All the horses came over to sniff the newborn foal and sensed that something was wrong. The stallion came over and with one swift blow, smashed the foals skull, the mares all followed.

I learned a very valuable lesson about "Compassion Killing" when I was faced with taking care of my mother in 04. My mother was diagnosed with nonsmall cell lung cancer. She was a beautiful person and I will always miss her deeply. I also watched what that dreaded disease did when it ravaged her body and mind. She would scream in agony,that no matter how much morphine we'd administer, it wouldn't matter. The pain was debilitating, to the point it ate her will to live, and we all prayed god would take her soon, because noone should go through that amount of agony.

Now I know what you're all saying, "Oh, I am so so sorry, Well she was your mom, she lived a full life, she at least got a chance to experience it"

Now imagine this, you're a baby, not even alive long enough to remember your own mothers face, the woman who carried you, the one you have the utmost intense bond of any person around you, but you scream and whimper and cry, because all you feel is pain,you don't know why,and no matter how anyone tries to console you it doesnt help,you just have to live every day for the rest of your life like this, or as a zombie, because the only thing to make your pain stop is strong, numbing meds, that keep you in a psuedo vegetative state. Now ask yourself, Doesn't this sound like a "Wonderful Life"? Aren't you so glad people are keeping you alive in this condition?
How cruel does that sound?
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