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Holland to allow ‘baby euthanasia’

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posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by thermopolis
Life at any cost is far better than death for any reason.


I just wonder how you know this...


Death could be a really wonderful thing, we don't know. And from a Christian perspective, the life after death is indeed much more glorious and fantastic than this one. So, why all the spookiness about death?

And B. Many of us have had to put a beloved animal down because of pain or other desease. That happens out of compassion, or at least in my case, it has been. And I know it's not a human life, but my dogs are much like my children as I don't have any of the 2-footed variety.

When it comes time to put my Cara out of her misery, it's not going to be because she's a hassle or too much trouble or some of these other crazy reasons I've seen mentioned here. It will be out of compassion. It will be for her. All for her. And it won't be easy.

To think that the parents in this story took the easy way out is simply ignorant. It's probably the hardest thing they ever did...




posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 03:07 PM
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I'm sick and tired of these pro-life idiots (I don't mean you, thermopolis) creaming ooh that poor baby, those cruel Dutch...
Face it; the baby is in a lot of pain, and has no chance of a normal life. She better off dead.

Quote from her mother: "It made me feel at peace inside to know that she wasn’t suffering any more.”

I am not saying that the baby was in better shape alive rather than dead. However, your staement here is a complete contradiction of itself. In the beginning you play it as if the concern was for the child. Yet you use the mother feeling better as justification? I know alot of people who I would feel better if they were dead, yet me feeling better in no way justifies murdering them.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by Zion Mainframe

...Terri Schiavo was STARVED to death, only because the US is so backwards about euthanasia.


I am an American and I absolutely concur with this statement.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by thermopolis

...So now are we saying the poor should be killed off too? They have no hope in some countries to life a prosperous life...


There is more than one definition of prosperous - see definition 2b - prosperous. Until you understand the semantics you should probably excuse yourself from this discussion.

(You may want to bookmark the following link - Merriam-Webster Dictionary.)



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor


Originally posted by Bibliophile

I never made this statement and this is an absurd assertion.



Originally posted by Bibliophile

Quality of life should always take precedence over quantity. Realistically, the severely handicapped are a drain on resources.



I'm confused... This is illogical.


I never stated that I have a personal concern regarding the financial support of the severely handicapped. Note I used the caveat realistically. I made two separate statements. You may want to review the thread for the correct interpretation of my posts.

If you require assistance with this I would be happy to present my argument in more elementary language.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 05:17 PM
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You are rong because a simple factor.
There might be medical brake trhu it may be 5 years it may be 10 years who knows what might show up, who knows what is discovered that would help them, untill antibiotics arived people would die from a regular infection, not the case anymore, there is better life for people with AIDS, being HIV positive now is not what it use to be, people got more hope better medication.
So really taking a life with out knowing what the future brings makes you a killer.
So if they can survive for a few years nothing is too much.

Who knows maybe it can be 1 year, never know what science brings up
If this is what people call help then I dont know what the world is turning in to.
Doing this thing is just like killing.

I saw how things are done on animal planet, searching for animals in the woods to kill them, get him lets give him a shot so he will not strugle there is another one he cant see give him the shoot, we sure helped them all


People that usualy sustain this sustain the deth penalty, it's all about injections.
Why dont we make a rule, you cant pass 60 so you wont strugle, why dont we build procesing plants so you can have u'r satisfaction.


[edit on 7-3-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78

You are rong because a simple factor.

There might be medical brake trhu it may be 5 years it may be 10 years who knows what might show up, who knows what is discovered that would help them, untill antibiotics arived people would die from a regular infection, not the case anymore, there is better life for people with AIDS, being HIV positive now is not what it use to be, people got more hope better medication.

So really taking a life with out knowing what the future brings makes you a killer.

So if they can survive for a few years nothing is too much.

I can see it, doctors grabing old people on the street "grab him, he is schisofrenic there is no help for him he just tortures his self, give him a shot, let's help him"

If this is what people call help then I dont know what the world is turning in to.


Concerning the OP issue, which some posters have strayed from, using future medical breakthroughs as an excuse to prolong the suffering of someone now living is a poor reason to deny humane euthanasia. We must deal with the here and now, not the here and when.

These flights of fancy regarding what may happen in the medical field are pointless exercises in emotionalism. There are literally thousands of diseases and disabilities. Only a fraction of them are being studied and rarely are the very obscure disorders being researched.

This child had a rare disorder. Who are you to assume her disease will be cured? Do you know if it is even being researched?

More importantly, do you care about the suffering she would have endured while waiting for your cure? Do you care about what her parents would have endured watching their child suffer? It does not appear so. In your eyes, her suffering and that of her parents is irrelevant to you as long as your personal values are respected.

Once again, you want your personal values applied to the rest of the planet. This is completely unrealistic and very presumptuous.

I applaud the Dutch for their insight and their courage. They are members of a truly civilized society.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 05:59 PM
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Concerning the OP issue, which some posters have strayed from, using future medical breakthroughs as an excuse to prolong the suffering of someone now living is a poor reason to deny humane euthanasia.

No this is u'r interpretation, and it's not an excuse, it's a factor that needs to be taken in cosideration and it hapend before with cancer pacients and with aids paicents.
You never know how it pops out, science is unpredictable so if there is a shreed of hope I dont see how this thing can be positive.



These flights of fancy regarding what may happen in the medical field are pointless exercises in emotionalism.

So people with cronical ilnes do not got any hope at all from the medical research?is that what u'r saying?that it's all a bunch of crap?that scientists working hard to get to a point to stop aids, cancer are just a bunch of idiotic figures because they are not going to make anithng posible?
I see.



There are literally thousands of diseases and disabilities. Only a fraction of them are being studied and rarely are the very obscure disorders being researched.

The medical research is constantly being researched in diferent branches, or do you think there are only 2 medical researchers in the whole world?
There are people that study viruses from a to z there are people researching genetics there are people researching anithing that has to do with medical research.
We got now the option to an electronic hart so even if u'r hart has problems it can be replaced with one that will tick forever even after you die, there are people with out legs that can walk with special design artificial implants, u'r atitude is just one way, not very opened minded.

Holand also offers prostitution(I dont mind it, it's the wifes)
Holand also offers the use of drugs of certain type.

[edit on 7-3-2006 by pepsi78]

[edit on 7-3-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78


These flights of fancy regarding what may happen in the medical field are pointless exercises in emotionalism.


{1.} So people with cronical ilnes do not got any hope at all from the medical research?is that what u'r saying?that it's all a bunch of crap?that scientists working hard to get to a point to stop aids, cancer are just a bunch of idiotic figures because they are not going to make anithng posible? I see.


There are literally thousands of diseases and disabilities. Only a fraction of them are being studied and rarely are the very obscure disorders being researched.


{2.} The medical research is constantly being researched in diferent branches, or do you think there are only 2 medical researchers in the whole world?

There are people that study viruses from a to z there are people researching genetics there are people researching anithing that has to do with medical research.

We got now the option to an electronic hart so even if u'r hart has problems it can be replaced with one that will tick forever even after you die, there are people with out legs that can walk with special design artificial implants...

{3.} u'r atitude is just one way, not very opened minded.


1. I did not make these statements. You made spurious assumptions based on my opinions.

2. Indeed.

3. I submit that you are the individual here who is not open-minded.

I have not posted from a sadistic point of view, but some here have done so. You would do better to debate with them the wisdom of allowing suffering to continue unabated when humane relief is available.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 08:49 PM
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Not sure what to say I know Jesus was pro-life in his ways he even revived a dead person and put new eyes in another person.
But because we have technology should we prolong the life? If this baby was born in Africa it would die and not much done about it. If they believe in God put him to a test. If the answere is nothing maybe you should ask him when you get there why? But when you do the baby will be alive and all this be useless. Not sure but keep him alive God or something new in medicine could come out of this waiting, maybe something possitive is coming by making a difference of us being aware of this issue.

[edit on 7-3-2006 by The time lord]



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 08:55 PM
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I feel for the family having to make such a decision. The thing I fear about this topic is the involuntary euthanasia abuse in Holland thats going on right now.

[edit on 7-3-2006 by tommyb98201]



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 08:59 PM
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I think it important that we all refrain from making these colossal extrapolative leaps from individual cases to mass murder scenarios. This type of hysterical speculation is completely unproductive.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 09:41 PM
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i completely agree with bibliophile.

The united states government is an elected theocracy...We all have to conform to what the government believes in; they think religiously, therefore euthanasia is illegal. What about us atheists? Nihilists? Agnostics? We are misrepresented.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Bibliophile
I never stated that I have a personal concern regarding the financial support of the severely handicapped.


You said what you said Spock... It's right here in quotes for all to see. Please... Dumb down how these people are a drain on our resources. Realistically, some of us have souls... Some people realize there is more to life than what is logical. Oh wait... That's not logical is it?

Because you didn't say it? Maybe I should add some definitions... Make myself sound smarter.


Whatever man... Play your superior intellect role... My dumbass is going out tonight. You know... To socialize......................................................

*Peace*



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by thermopolis
Many great scientist like Steven Hawkings would never have a chance.


Steven Hawkings was already in a university when his disease struck him.

Let people do what they will though. It's too bad we aren't able to cure things like this today. Poor babies.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 10:29 PM
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Its been an interesting thread so far. i thought I would throw in my own 2 cents worth.

First off: I am an advocate of euthanasia. I firmly belive in the absence of meaningfull hope or recovery individulas or families of individuals should have the right to put an end to pain and suffering felt by loved ones.

In this case we have many trigger words. Esp. when you mix "infants" with "euthanasia". The instinct to protect our little ones is strong, perhaps the strongest we may have and jus tthe title is to produce a knee jerk reaction because of this instinct.

That being said as many of you know, all of my 11 years as an RN have been spent in pediatric critical care. I have had the fortune and misfortune to witness time and time again both extremes when faced with a child that was going to die often in the most painfull away any of us could imagine.

Some families have elected to stop treatment and allow thier child to recieve pain medication and die in the love and warmth of thier parents embrace.

Others have chosen to maintain treatment often escalating it to the point where it hard to determine where the technology begins and the child ends. Alot of time, effort, emotion, and money can be spent on futility. Yes, I said money: Its a factor that few want to discuss but it is very relevant. How many people would flog thier child till the very end if they had to pay for it out of pocket?

However, in both cases, it was a choice by the prents. As you can tell from my description, which one I favor. I would favor the dying peacefully choice for my own 3 year old if faced with similar circumstances.

From the article:


If a child is untreatably ill,” Verhagen explained, “there can be horrendous suffering that makes the last few days or weeks of this child’s life unbearable. Now the question is: are you going to leave the child like that or are you going to prevent that suffering?” He went on: “Does the child have to sit it out until the end? We think that the answer is no. There can be circumstances where, under very strict conditions, if all the requirements are fulfilled, active ending of life can be an option — but only in cases of untreatable disease and unbearable suffering.”
www.timesonline.co.uk...


Many posters give the impression of goose stepping, jack booted types roaming infant wards and playing god, but that is simply not the case. Few of you can ever even come close to relating to the pain these little ones endure for the sake of life itself.

For those opposed to ending the pain and suffering of those with little or no hope, I have to ask you this: Are you making the judgement on whats based on thier needs or your own?



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 11:14 PM
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"Why dont we make a rule, you cant pass 60 so you wont strugle, why dont we build procesing plants so you can have u'r satisfaction. "

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why, my grandmother lived well into her 80's and well, she didn't cry constantly because of the pain......

ah yes, that one little aspect of the whole picture that some are chosing to ignore... constant, never ending pain!!!

I don't think anyone here supports the idea of forcing someone out of this life, for whatever reason, simply because of their health problems. but well, there are some very sane, rational, quite able to voice their own preferences about the matter who, because of the prognosis of the disease along with the discomfort they are feeling, well, they would prefer to leave now. there are others, like this baby, who cannot speak for themselves, and thus are subject to the decisions of others. I would never, in a million years decide the fate of someone who was perfectly capable of communicating their own desires, but I would never stand in their way if they decided that the disease that was ravagine their body so overwelmingly overshadowed the positive aspects of their life to the point where they felt it was better to leave. and as for those who are not capable of speaking on their own behalf. who is better able to decide, loving family members and doctors, or us busybodies who appearantly have nothing better to do than to stick our noises where it more than like
doesn't belong and politicians who are more concerned where their next big contribution is coming from than the wellfare of the country or any of their constituants.

again, I will say, that with today's technology, I don't consider it humane to have a life at all costs approach to things. we could concievably keep people alive forever, if we chose to ignore the amount of pain these people would endure, then I think we would become more like monsters than we would be humane!

for a group that declares it is taking the moral highground, ummm......why are yous trying to cheat death? It is a natural step in life. and quite frankly, it is a gift from God. the pysical world is only a small fragment of creation, we are blind to so much while here not to mention limited. to entirely avoid death or to go to such extreme measure to avoid it for someone else it like trying to keep a child in kindergarten forever.

and if you want my opinion (please forgive the religious rantings), umm....only satan could benefit from having people stuck in the physical world....it would make them permantly his. and well, satan, the fallen angels and the rest of the gang, they thrive on our emotions....feed off them. or at least some of them....pain, suffering, dispair, hatred, hopelessness, increase them enough in the physical plane and who will create a feeding freenzy amounst them...they will grow stronger.

this is my belief, you have yours, neither can be proved or disproved. so, I guess either has about equal validity. you chose to believe that it is better to be alive, regardless of everything, I strongly disagree. neither can be debunked or supported unless we can peer beyond the viel into that unknown territory called death. is it oblivion, total nonbeing??? well I don't think there is pain in oblivion, do you? reincarnation, into another, hopefully heathy body....hey, sounds better to me! or maybe pearly gates, an the loving arms of the creator.

the right to life people don't want babies condemned at birth to a very early painful death, to be allowed to die.
they don't want others, like terri, who in all practical sense was dead, to be allowed to die.

you don't want people to be allowed to die.....life is sacred, it keeps people from escaping the illusion of this world and entering into the other realms.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 11:21 PM
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people who are anti-abortion or anti-euthanasia keep saying "What gives you the right to play God?"...In return one might say "what gives you the right to claim God exists?".


Who drew the line between morality and immorality? Who is right to say that death is the end of existence? Who is right to let one suffer?

[edit on 7-3-2006 by ivansusanin]



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 11:54 PM
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Ok first, allow me to speak as a person who has the most ability to talk right now about this very subject. (I have noticed that alot of people strongly opposed to pro choice, and compassionate killing, have never been faced with either of those situations)

I am almost 6 months pregnant at this point. At 12:35 AM EVERY night now, my daughter kicks me, has developed a sense of taste, a schedule, can hear the stories I read to my 3 year old every night, can blink and suck her thumbs.

In 2 more weeks, there's a very good chance she'd survive outside of the womb. I have heard the heartbeat, and seen her in the ultrasound. I am not for partial birth abortions whatsoever. I do know though for certain, that if this child were to be born with a disease that caused her to writhe in pain and agony, for the rest of her life, however long that would be, I could not make the conscious decision to carry on her life, expecting the only memories she would ever have, to be of pain and suffering. What kind of life is that for a child?

As a mothers instinct, it is pure torture to know your child is suffering and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it. Look at the animals in the wild.
I watched a program on wild horses, the mare dropped(gave birth to) a foal that seemed to be "Wrong" somehow. All the horses came over to sniff the newborn foal and sensed that something was wrong. The stallion came over and with one swift blow, smashed the foals skull, the mares all followed.

I learned a very valuable lesson about "Compassion Killing" when I was faced with taking care of my mother in 04. My mother was diagnosed with nonsmall cell lung cancer. She was a beautiful person and I will always miss her deeply. I also watched what that dreaded disease did when it ravaged her body and mind. She would scream in agony,that no matter how much morphine we'd administer, it wouldn't matter. The pain was debilitating, to the point it ate her will to live, and we all prayed god would take her soon, because noone should go through that amount of agony.

Now I know what you're all saying, "Oh, I am so so sorry, Well she was your mom, she lived a full life, she at least got a chance to experience it"

Now imagine this, you're a baby, not even alive long enough to remember your own mothers face, the woman who carried you, the one you have the utmost intense bond of any person around you, but you scream and whimper and cry, because all you feel is pain,you don't know why,and no matter how anyone tries to console you it doesnt help,you just have to live every day for the rest of your life like this, or as a zombie, because the only thing to make your pain stop is strong, numbing meds, that keep you in a psuedo vegetative state. Now ask yourself, Doesn't this sound like a "Wonderful Life"? Aren't you so glad people are keeping you alive in this condition?
How cruel does that sound?



posted on Mar, 8 2006 @ 12:09 AM
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POSTED BY BILIOPHILE - Quality of life should always take precedence over quantity. Realistically, the severely handicapped are a drain on resources.


I did not need to read any further. I knew this thread would be full of evil sick people. I have no problem with suicide however as that would be a personal choice. If your that unhappy and disturbed - go for it. I was born with multiple genetic disorders. I would have been murdered under your philosophy. I'm very happy. A cold chill just went up and down my spine.






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