It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The Problems With The Middle East

page: 4
3
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 14 2006 @ 08:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by subz

One just has to look at any country in the Middle East and their troubles and strife are apparent.



Most of those countries you mentioned are dominated by Islam. Muslims have a deep hatred for Jews. Herein lies the problem. Allah also has said Islam will take over the world, some have heard that fundamental "truth" of Islam and are seeking to make it a reality. Others choose to ignore Allah's call to do this.

Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

This prophecy is coming true before our very eye's.




posted on Nov, 14 2006 @ 09:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by subz
Jumping back to my points raised about the Kurds seeking independance: Kurdish separatists have claimed responsibilty for the gigantic fire at the Attaturk Airport in Turkey this week. It's an issue that is sure to only gain momentum as the Iran nuclear non-issue gets artificially hyped to the "red-line" stage.

[edit on 25/5/06 by subz]




kurdish " separatists " is the biggest gambit of all times .

Any clever kurdish person knows how impossible the task of taking land from 4 countries and creating a state with hostile enemies on all around .

Imagine being a kurdish in istanbul , damascus , tehran , bagdat .

Now imagine being a kurd in what amounts to a creation by violation situation in your new " homeland " .

You can not travel to iran , iraq , syria , turkey and get a nice treatment just after having had a civil war with all of them .

All your goods have to be shipped and your defense is at the hands of christians but not your fellow muslims ?


Subz , this game has been played out already .

Until abrahams religions unite as one there will be no peace on earth .

23432



posted on Nov, 14 2006 @ 09:05 PM
link   
oh yeah , fundemental " truth " of islam is that human beings are created for a purpose by a creator who wants all humans to submit and obey their creator .

consistent and simple .



posted on Nov, 14 2006 @ 09:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt
Most of those countries you mentioned are dominated by Islam. Muslims have a deep hatred for Jews. Herein lies the problem.

I just have a problem with that point, since it's not true. Before the creation of Israel Muslims lived side by side with Jews in Palestine and other Muslim nations such as Morocco, Iran etc.

In fact, Iran currently is home to the most Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel itself. To say that Muslims have a deep hatred for Jews is just not accurate at all. If anything it is Christians who have such a hatred. Just look at all the Pogroms and the Holocaust.


Originally posted by 23432
kurdish " separatists " is the biggest gambit of all times .

Any clever kurdish person knows how impossible the task of taking land from 4 countries and creating a state with hostile enemies on all around.

Well, I never said they'd be successful. But one just has to look at the stated goals of people like Osama Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri in creating a region wide Caliphate to see that feasibility is no obstacle to these dreams. Given also that an independent, and oil-rich, Kurdistan in Iraq is a very possibility it would not only increase the likelihood of Kurdish groups reaching for Kurdish territory in Turkey and Iran, but also their chances of success.



posted on Nov, 14 2006 @ 09:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by subz

Originally posted by dbrandt
Most of those countries you mentioned are dominated by Islam. Muslims have a deep hatred for Jews. Herein lies the problem.


I just have a problem with that point, since it's not true.


Watching the news and listening to it, and to what Muslim leaders say over there, confirms what I said. Also, several wars by arab, muslim nations over the last 58 years, with the sole intent of destroying the Jews, also confirms my statement.



posted on Nov, 14 2006 @ 09:34 PM
link   
dbrant


turkish republic gave recognition to israel , uhm about 58 years ago but i might be off give or take a few years .

should israel come under ANY attack , there stands a bi-lateral agreement for turkish army to come to aid and vice versa .


how does these facts sit with your opinion that muslims want to destroy jews ?


23432



posted on Nov, 14 2006 @ 09:37 PM
link   
Subz


I have half kurdish relatives and they are of the opinion that a civil war between turk - kurd - persian - arab scenario would only benefit israel in long run .



I beg to differ .



posted on Nov, 14 2006 @ 09:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt
Watching the news and listening to it,

You'd also think there were sexual predators around every corner if you listened to the news. The corporate news media is completely geared to reflect the wishes of their host governments. That wish is currently to kick start a clash of civilisations which will grease the wheels of a permanent Middle-Eastern occupation force.

The corporate news media also conveniently ignores the vast sea of Islamic condemnation of terrorism and violence. President Ahmadinejad himself denounced violence against Muslims, Christians and Jews in a German magazine article but you never heard a whisper of it in American/British news casts since it just doesn't fit the news agenda.


Originally posted by dbrandt
to what Muslim leaders say over there, confirms what I said.

Again, you are only told snippets to justify our government actions. Also the creation of Israel is akin to America's Pear Harbour, Britain's Blitz or France's occupation. Since we're on the opposite side it we see those events from a German or Japanese standpoint.


Originally posted by dbrandt
Also, several wars by arab, muslim nations over the last 58 years,

Israel is an artificial construct. It's artificial because it wasn't created by the usual means, force of arms. Since the regular birth was denied the force escaped any way and continues to rage because it suits international agendas. Also the wars over Israel are not entirely all instigated by the Arabs. Israel has started plenty of conflicts including the invasions of Egypt and both invasions of Lebanon.


Originally posted by dbrandt
with the sole intent of destroying the Jews, also confirms my statement.

That is not even a single intent. The intent is to drive the Zionists (not necessarily Jews) out of Palestine. If there was an agenda to destroy Jews there would be no Jews living in those same countries mentioned in those wars now would there? How do you explain the Jews living in Iran if Iran is hell-bent on exterminating the Jews like we're supposed to believe?



posted on Nov, 15 2006 @ 06:28 AM
link   

Originally posted by 23432

how does these facts sit with your opinion that muslims want to destroy jews ?



It doesn't change it. Not all muslims, may want to do this but there are millions who do.

How many muslims did it take to through the U.S.(300,000,000 people) into disarray and change our way of life on 9/11? Answer-19

Millions can do alot of damage.



posted on Nov, 15 2006 @ 10:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by 23432

how does these facts sit with your opinion that muslims want to destroy jews ?



It doesn't change it. Not all muslims, may want to do this but there are millions who do.

How many muslims did it take to through the U.S.(300,000,000 people) into disarray and change our way of life on 9/11? Answer-19

Millions can do alot of damage.




dbrandt

I guess you have a point somewhere but it eludes me .

American way of life might seem to have changed but I would argue that in the long run it will be for the better .

In a similar way to pearl harbour perhaps ?

all americans are equal by law in your country , are they not ?

Unlike some muslim #hole countries , america have freedom of religion , I guess THAT eludes you too .

ahh , nevermind , keep at it , don't let anything insignificant - such as truth - hinder your understanding of the world around you .

If memory serves me correctly ; your great grandpa was not that different .



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 11:12 PM
link   


Before the creation of Israel Muslims lived side by side with Jews in Palestine and other Muslim nations such as Morocco, Iran etc.


Side by side? Well, I guess their neighborhoods were sort of side by side. The Jews were allowed to live in the ghetto and the Muslims could live anywhere else. What do you think a Mellah is? And why do you suppose they are empty? Let's see what wikipedia thinks...




A mellah (Arabic ملاح) is a walled Jewish quarter of a city in Morocco, an analogue of the European ghetto.
In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. Usually, the Jewish quarter was situated near the citadel, i.e. the residence of the king or governor, in order to protect its inhabitants from the violence of the Muslim populace. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.


Sounds great!




Israel is an artificial construct. It's artificial because it wasn't created by the usual means, force of arms. Since the regular birth was denied the force escaped any way and continues to rage because it suits international agendas. Also the wars over Israel are not entirely all instigated by the Arabs. Israel has started plenty of conflicts including the invasions of Egypt and both invasions of Lebanon.


??? Israel was created in the same way every other country in the modern Middle East was created, it was partitioned by the French or the British. How is the birth of Jordan or Iraq any different from Israel's creation? If anything, Israel's borders were defined by the preceding civil war and the subsequent Arab/Israeli War of '48. Meaning, Israel was created by force of arms moreso than many of the surrounding nations which were arbitrarily decided by the colonial victors of WWI.

And I think you'd have a tough time making the argument that any of the wars you mentioned were not instigated by the Arabs. Egypt for instance, closed the Suez canal to Israeli traffic and massed its army along the Israeli border, along with the Syrian and Jordanian armies in '67. You don't consider this to be an instigation?

-added-



If there was an agenda to destroy Jews there would be no Jews living in those same countries mentioned in those wars now would there? How do you explain the Jews living in Iran if Iran is hell-bent on exterminating the Jews like we're supposed to believe?


Iran is an exception here and an unusual case. Dbrandt specified Arab nations as I understood it. Iran is Persian and has a unique hsitory and perspective (and agenda I believe) in this area. My personal belief is that Iran's new president, who is quite canny, is manipulating the agenda for his own purposes. If he frames this conflict as being about Zionism and the Palestinian plight it is far easier to deflect real inquiries into his own ambitions. He doesn't want what happened to Iraq to happen to him. In reality I think his agenda is more about securing Iranian dominence over the Middle East. With Iraq gone there is little stopping him in becoming the new Middle Eastern superpower. Israel is just a foil, albeit an effective one.

However all of the Arab states stripped their Jewish population of citizenship and expelled them from their various nations in the years after Israel gained independence. (Which is sort of as if we had deported all of our vietnamese citizens after N.V. took over S.V.) Moroccan Jews were not necessarily more Zionist than their Moroccan Arab neighbors, (you know, the ones living outside the ghetto.) Yet, they were punished for being the same ethnicity and were subsequently made into refugees. (Although many left their homes during the riots, massacres, punitive laws and anti-jewish terrorism that followed '48 but before actual government sanctioned expulsion occurred.)

[edit on 16-11-2006 by Shaktimaan]



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 07:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Side by side? Well, I guess their neighborhoods were sort of side by side. The Jews were allowed to live in the ghetto and the Muslims could live anywhere else. What do you think a Mellah is? And why do you suppose they are empty? Let's see what wikipedia thinks...



A mellah (Arabic ملاح) is a walled Jewish quarter of a city in Morocco, an analogue of the European ghetto.
In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. Usually, the Jewish quarter was situated near the citadel, i.e. the residence of the king or governor, in order to protect its inhabitants from the violence of the Muslim populace. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.

Are you telling me Jews were forced to live in ghettos in all Muslim nations? A walled Jewish quarter is no more sinister than the Jewish quarter of Paris or any other city. Is China town automatically an indication of antipathy to Chinese? What about Little Odessa or Little Italy?


Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Sounds great!

It doesn't sound bad, if you ask me.


Originally posted by Shaktimaan
??? Israel was created in the same way every other country in the modern Middle East was created, it was partitioned by the French or the British. How is the birth of Jordan or Iraq any different from Israel's creation? If anything, Israel's borders were defined by the preceding civil war and the subsequent Arab/Israeli War of '48. Meaning, Israel was created by force of arms moreso than many of the surrounding nations which were arbitrarily decided by the colonial victors of WWI.

I see you conveniently omit that the partitions followed the defeat of the Ottoman Empire following WW1. That would be a force of arms now wouldn't it? What war, other than diplomatic, did the Zionists wage to secure the creation of Israel within the UN building in New York? My point still stands thank you.


Originally posted by Shaktimaan
And I think you'd have a tough time making the argument that any of the wars you mentioned were not instigated by the Arabs. Egypt for instance, closed the Suez canal to Israeli traffic and massed its army along the Israeli border, along with the Syrian and Jordanian armies in '67. You don't consider this to be an instigation?

Oh for crying out loud. Please research the Sèvres Protocol. It's an actual document residing in the Ben Gurion archives which clearly states the joint French-British-Israeli plan to concoct a war against Egypt because Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. The entire war was the construct of France-Britain and Israel. Egypt had no troops massing on the Israeli border, that was all part of the lie created at Sèvres to justify French/British military intervention at the Suez canal.

Egypt did not provoke or threaten Israel in the slightest. What Egypt did do was reclaim it's most valuable asset that had been taken from it during British colonial rule. It was Egypt's to do with what it wished. If it wanted to stop shipping to Israel it was it's choice. That in no way justified the military attack Israel launched, which was completely illegal under the UN charter and totally unjustifiable.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:08 PM
link   

Originally posted by subz
The problem is Totalitarianism. It's this way or nothing.

In the example of Europe (and the West), the enlightenment paved the way for our democratic form of government. Enlightened Europe was still run by monarchies for hundreds of years. This was not necessarily a bad thing, infact I'd argue that a dominant authouritarianism was essential to the creation of our fundamental Western way of life.

[edit on 5/3/06 by subz]


Uh dude... totalitarianism is the same as forcing enlightenment on the Arab world. It might be wise to let these people do what they please and support any countries that desire to change. It is bad enough that the first world takes all people that want to immigrate due to conflict of values they may experience in their homelands.

I do agree with you that creating a Palestinian state will help to resolve problems but I'm not convinced that Israel wants this either besides the Arab world.

The real reason we are concerned with the social views of the Arab world is that we need their resources and we are too dependent on them. We need to create regimes that we perceive as being stable and recognizable so that we can increase our security.

It is either the carrot or the stick but a lack of patience ensures one mode of solution over another.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Uh dude... totalitarianism is the same as forcing enlightenment on the Arab world. It might be wise to let these people do what they please and support any countries that desire to change. It is bad enough that the first world takes all people that want to immigrate due to conflict of values they may experience in their homelands.

You've misquoted me there. Combined some one else's words with mine.

From memory, it was written 9 months ago, I was talking about how we should be supporting moderate Muslims even if they are not pro-democracy. I also contrasted how supporting Islamic monarchies is preferable over supporting dictators. Perhaps I used the wrong word when I said "force" enlightenment in the Middle East. I should of said support enlightenment instead of democracy.


Originally posted by denythestatusquo
I do agree with you that creating a Palestinian state will help to resolve problems but I'm not convinced that Israel wants this either besides the Arab world.

The real reason we are concerned with the social views of the Arab world is that we need their resources and we are too dependent on them. We need to create regimes that we perceive as being stable and recognizable so that we can increase our security.

It is either the carrot or the stick but a lack of patience ensures one mode of solution over another.

No arguments there



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 06:04 PM
link   
Wow. Just wow. OK, I'm going to set aside some of the other stuff for now and focus on the blatantly anti-semitic part. For the record, I have never accused anyone of anti-semitism before but I see no other way in which to describe some of the stuff you said.

There is quite a large difference between Jewish mellahs and little italy. For that matter, there is a large difference between the social status of Jews in Arab countries and the social status of Italians in modern day America. I'm having trouble believing that there are people out there who cannot discern between de-facto segregation (chinatown) and forced oppression (mellahs) in todays day and age. Here's a tip for the future so you can tell easily. If an ethnic group is forced to live in a restricted area, forbidden to leave or live elsewhere, forced to live by a restricted set of rules not enforced on other ethnic groups, (mandating what they can and cannot do for a living, how much school they can attend, etc.) periodically the target of pogroms and essentially lives in an enforced second class status within a society, then they are OPPRESSED.

In Morocco for example, Jews were routinely executed publicly for no crime and their murderers never prosecuted.



According to a statistical report of the Alliance Israélite Universelle for the years 1864-80 no less than 307 Jews were murdered in the city and district of Morocco, which crimes, although brought to the attention of the magistracy upon every occasion, remained unpunished ↑ . The ideas of law and justice which make such conditions possible are expressed in the Moroccan proverb, "One may kill as many as seven Jews without being punished."


More importantly, throughout the Arab world, Jews were forced to live in ghettos, wear distinctive clothing to mark them as Jewish and were limited in the kinds of jobs they could have. Of course they were restricted in actions like property buying, marrying, etc., and usually had additional taxation imposed.

Where are you from dude, that you think this kind of stuff sounds great? Are you just unaware of it? Or are you some kind of white power guy who feels that "lesser-races" should have restrictive laws placed on them? Do you long for the days of seperate but equal in America? I am being serious.

America fought Italy in WWII, right? Can you show me when, during that war, thousands and thousands of ethnic-Italians were massacred and stripped of their American citizenship? Because you seem to think that there is no difference between little Italy and a Mellah.



The mellah of Fez was not always successful in protecting its dwellers. On May 14, 1465, its inhabitants were nearly all killed by the rebels who overthrew the Merinid dynasty. That attack sparked a wave of violence against the Jews all over Morocco. The immediate cause of the anti-Jewish violence was the appointment of a Jew to the post of vizier.


Kindly remind me when there was a nationwide attack on Italian-Americans following the first one being elected to congress. I don't seem to remember it.

Dude, I seriously recommend you do a little research before you casually disregard systematic oppression against someone else's ethnicity. There is a very long and very brutal history of pogroms and oppression against Jews in Arab lands stretching over centuries. Maybe that sounds like a nice stroll in Chinatown to you, but to the millions who fled it appeared somewhat different. The Jewish population in Morocco pre-dates the Arabs. They were there a loooong time. They did not all decide to leave for no reason whatsoever.

This has nothing to do with Israel or Palestine, by the way. If someone chose to deny the oppression in aparthied south africa or of post-civil war blacks in america I would make the same fuss.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 06:39 PM
link   
Now I'll just address some on the non-anti-semitic yet equally retarded stuff you mentioned.



I see you conveniently omit that the partitions followed the defeat of the Ottoman Empire following WW1. That would be a force of arms now wouldn't it? What war, other than diplomatic, did the Zionists wage to secure the creation of Israel within the UN building in New York?


Um... you said that Israel WASN'T the result of a force of arms. That was YOUR point, not mine. What are you trying to say?

You said...



Israel is an artificial construct. It's artificial because it wasn't created by the usual means, force of arms.


The entire middle east was reshaped after the ottoman empire fell. All of it diplomatically. Israel was slated to be created by the British PRIOR to WWI, not after WWII. That is just when the UN validated it. The Balfour declaration stated England's intent to establish Israel. Besides, Jordan was created only a few years before Israel. With no fighting having to do with it following the fall of the ottoman's. How is the decision to declare Jordan a state any different than declaring Israel a state? Neither existed beforehand.

And the answer to your question is "World War Two." The Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was allied with Hitler and the Palestinian Jews were allied with the Allies.



Please research the Sèvres Protocol.


You are talking about the suez crisis. I was talking about the six day war. They are different wars. You can tell which I was referring to because I said "'67." Egypt not only massed troops along its border, but threw out all of the the UN peacekeepers who were monitering the border.



Egypt did not provoke or threaten Israel in the slightest.


OK, let's talk about suez. Closing the canal was a clear violation of the Egyptian-Israeli armistice agreement. As was launching feyadeen attacks across Israel's border which DID happen [snip]. Try reading a book on the subject instead of JewWatch. In 1955 alone, 260 Israeli citizens were killed or wounded by fedayeen.

Staff Edit: Please see Mirthful Me's note below.

[edit on 11-27-2006 by Djarums]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 08:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by 23432
dbrant

turkish republic gave recognition to israel , uhm about 58 years ago but i might be off give or take a few years .

should israel come under ANY attack , there stands a bi-lateral agreement for turkish army to come to aid and vice versa .



When was this agreement put into effect? If you are saying 58 years ago, then hasn't Turkey forfeited their part of the agreement since Israel has been at war on their own several times?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 08:54 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by subz

Originally posted by dbrandt
Most of those countries you mentioned are dominated by Islam. Muslims have a deep hatred for Jews. Herein lies the problem.


I just have a problem with that point, since it's not true.


Watching the news and listening to it, and to what Muslim leaders say over there, confirms what I said. Also, several wars by arab, muslim nations over the last 58 years, with the sole intent of destroying the Jews, also confirms my statement.


You are confusing Jews with Israel. Israel does not equal Jews nor do Jews equal Israel. Israel is a country, Jews are a people of a religion. Jews have cohabiated in the Middle East and Muslim countries since recorded history. Israel is a nation established within the last century originally for the diaspora of Jews fleeing Christian anti-semitism. Arabs and Muslims live in Israel too. And not all Jews are in agreement with the actions of Israel. The situation is more complex than the news you watch and listen to would have you believe, even more complex than I can explain in this single paragraph.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Jamuhn]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:16 PM
link   
Regardless of topic, the Terms & Conditions Of Use must be adhered to at all times. For any members not intimately familiar with said Terms & Conditions Of Use, I strongly suggest reviewing them and editing any recent posts that may violate said Terms & Conditions Of Use

Thanks.



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 04:20 AM
link   
Mirthful Me, I apologize. I felt Subz's statement was anti-semitic and was pretty angry when I wrote my response. Both my fiance and myself have Moroccan Jewish ancestry and I took severe offense at the assumption that no atrocities were committed in the Moroccan mellahs (as well as other arab-state Jewish ghettos.)

I'll try and refrain from profanity in the future and I am sorry for my indiscretion.


[edit on 28-11-2006 by Shaktimaan]



new topics

top topics



 
3
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join