The Problems With The Middle East, page 4
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reply posted on 14-11-2006 @ 09:39 PM by subz
Originally posted by dbrandt
Watching the news and listening to it,

You'd also think there were sexual predators around every corner if you listened to the news. The corporate news media is completely geared to reflect the wishes of their host governments. That wish is currently to kick start a clash of civilisations which will grease the wheels of a permanent Middle-Eastern occupation force.

The corporate news media also conveniently ignores the vast sea of Islamic condemnation of terrorism and violence. President Ahmadinejad himself denounced violence against Muslims, Christians and Jews in a German magazine article but you never heard a whisper of it in American/British news casts since it just doesn't fit the news agenda.

Originally posted by dbrandt
to what Muslim leaders say over there, confirms what I said.

Again, you are only told snippets to justify our government actions. Also the creation of Israel is akin to America's Pear Harbour, Britain's Blitz or France's occupation. Since we're on the opposite side it we see those events from a German or Japanese standpoint.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Also, several wars by arab, muslim nations over the last 58 years,

Israel is an artificial construct. It's artificial because it wasn't created by the usual means, force of arms. Since the regular birth was denied the force escaped any way and continues to rage because it suits international agendas. Also the wars over Israel are not entirely all instigated by the Arabs. Israel has started plenty of conflicts including the invasions of Egypt and both invasions of Lebanon.

Originally posted by dbrandt
with the sole intent of destroying the Jews, also confirms my statement.

That is not even a single intent. The intent is to drive the Zionists (not necessarily Jews) out of Palestine. If there was an agenda to destroy Jews there would be no Jews living in those same countries mentioned in those wars now would there? How do you explain the Jews living in Iran if Iran is hell-bent on exterminating the Jews like we're supposed to believe?



reply posted on 16-11-2006 @ 11:12 PM by Shaktimaan

Before the creation of Israel Muslims lived side by side with Jews in Palestine and other Muslim nations such as Morocco, Iran etc.


Side by side? Well, I guess their neighborhoods were sort of side by side. The Jews were allowed to live in the ghetto and the Muslims could live anywhere else. What do you think a Mellah is? And why do you suppose they are empty? Let's see what wikipedia thinks...



A mellah (Arabic ملاح) is a walled Jewish quarter of a city in Morocco, an analogue of the European ghetto.
In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. Usually, the Jewish quarter was situated near the citadel, i.e. the residence of the king or governor, in order to protect its inhabitants from the violence of the Muslim populace. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.


Sounds great!



Israel is an artificial construct. It's artificial because it wasn't created by the usual means, force of arms. Since the regular birth was denied the force escaped any way and continues to rage because it suits international agendas. Also the wars over Israel are not entirely all instigated by the Arabs. Israel has started plenty of conflicts including the invasions of Egypt and both invasions of Lebanon.


??? Israel was created in the same way every other country in the modern Middle East was created, it was partitioned by the French or the British. How is the birth of Jordan or Iraq any different from Israel's creation? If anything, Israel's borders were defined by the preceding civil war and the subsequent Arab/Israeli War of '48. Meaning, Israel was created by force of arms moreso than many of the surrounding nations which were arbitrarily decided by the colonial victors of WWI.

And I think you'd have a tough time making the argument that any of the wars you mentioned were not instigated by the Arabs. Egypt for instance, closed the Suez canal to Israeli traffic and massed its army along the Israeli border, along with the Syrian and Jordanian armies in '67. You don't consider this to be an instigation?

-added-


If there was an agenda to destroy Jews there would be no Jews living in those same countries mentioned in those wars now would there? How do you explain the Jews living in Iran if Iran is hell-bent on exterminating the Jews like we're supposed to believe?


Iran is an exception here and an unusual case. Dbrandt specified Arab nations as I understood it. Iran is Persian and has a unique hsitory and perspective (and agenda I believe) in this area. My personal belief is that Iran's new president, who is quite canny, is manipulating the agenda for his own purposes. If he frames this conflict as being about Zionism and the Palestinian plight it is far easier to deflect real inquiries into his own ambitions. He doesn't want what happened to Iraq to happen to him. In reality I think his agenda is more about securing Iranian dominence over the Middle East. With Iraq gone there is little stopping him in becoming the new Middle Eastern superpower. Israel is just a foil, albeit an effective one.

However all of the Arab states stripped their Jewish population of citizenship and expelled them from their various nations in the years after Israel gained independence. (Which is sort of as if we had deported all of our vietnamese citizens after N.V. took over S.V.) Moroccan Jews were not necessarily more Zionist than their Moroccan Arab neighbors, (you know, the ones living outside the ghetto.) Yet, they were punished for being the same ethnicity and were subsequently made into refugees. (Although many left their homes during the riots, massacres, punitive laws and anti-jewish terrorism that followed '48 but before actual government sanctioned expulsion occurred.)

[edit on 16-11-2006 by Shaktimaan]


reply posted on 17-11-2006 @ 07:53 PM by subz
Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Side by side? Well, I guess their neighborhoods were sort of side by side. The Jews were allowed to live in the ghetto and the Muslims could live anywhere else. What do you think a Mellah is? And why do you suppose they are empty? Let's see what wikipedia thinks...


A mellah (Arabic ملاح) is a walled Jewish quarter of a city in Morocco, an analogue of the European ghetto.
In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. Usually, the Jewish quarter was situated near the citadel, i.e. the residence of the king or governor, in order to protect its inhabitants from the violence of the Muslim populace. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.

Are you telling me Jews were forced to live in ghettos in all Muslim nations? A walled Jewish quarter is no more sinister than the Jewish quarter of Paris or any other city. Is China town automatically an indication of antipathy to Chinese? What about Little Odessa or Little Italy?

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Sounds great!

It doesn't sound bad, if you ask me.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
??? Israel was created in the same way every other country in the modern Middle East was created, it was partitioned by the French or the British. How is the birth of Jordan or Iraq any different from Israel's creation? If anything, Israel's borders were defined by the preceding civil war and the subsequent Arab/Israeli War of '48. Meaning, Israel was created by force of arms moreso than many of the surrounding nations which were arbitrarily decided by the colonial victors of WWI.

I see you conveniently omit that the partitions followed the defeat of the Ottoman Empire following WW1. That would be a force of arms now wouldn't it? What war, other than diplomatic, did the Zionists wage to secure the creation of Israel within the UN building in New York? My point still stands thank you.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
And I think you'd have a tough time making the argument that any of the wars you mentioned were not instigated by the Arabs. Egypt for instance, closed the Suez canal to Israeli traffic and massed its army along the Israeli border, along with the Syrian and Jordanian armies in '67. You don't consider this to be an instigation?

Oh for crying out loud. Please research the Sèvres Protocol. It's an actual document residing in the Ben Gurion archives which clearly states the joint French-British-Israeli plan to concoct a war against Egypt because Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. The entire war was the construct of France-Britain and Israel. Egypt had no troops massing on the Israeli border, that was all part of the lie created at Sèvres to justify French/British military intervention at the Suez canal.

Egypt did not provoke or threaten Israel in the slightest. What Egypt did do was reclaim it's most valuable asset that had been taken from it during British colonial rule. It was Egypt's to do with what it wished. If it wanted to stop shipping to Israel it was it's choice. That in no way justified the military attack Israel launched, which was completely illegal under the UN charter and totally unjustifiable.


reply posted on 26-11-2006 @ 06:04 PM by Shaktimaan
Wow. Just wow. OK, I'm going to set aside some of the other stuff for now and focus on the blatantly anti-semitic part. For the record, I have never accused anyone of anti-semitism before but I see no other way in which to describe some of the stuff you said.

There is quite a large difference between Jewish mellahs and little italy. For that matter, there is a large difference between the social status of Jews in Arab countries and the social status of Italians in modern day America. I'm having trouble believing that there are people out there who cannot discern between de-facto segregation (chinatown) and forced oppression (mellahs) in todays day and age. Here's a tip for the future so you can tell easily. If an ethnic group is forced to live in a restricted area, forbidden to leave or live elsewhere, forced to live by a restricted set of rules not enforced on other ethnic groups, (mandating what they can and cannot do for a living, how much school they can attend, etc.) periodically the target of pogroms and essentially lives in an enforced second class status within a society, then they are OPPRESSED.

In Morocco for example, Jews were routinely executed publicly for no crime and their murderers never prosecuted.


According to a statistical report of the Alliance Israélite Universelle for the years 1864-80 no less than 307 Jews were murdered in the city and district of Morocco, which crimes, although brought to the attention of the magistracy upon every occasion, remained unpunished ↑ . The ideas of law and justice which make such conditions possible are expressed in the Moroccan proverb, "One may kill as many as seven Jews without being punished."


More importantly, throughout the Arab world, Jews were forced to live in ghettos, wear distinctive clothing to mark them as Jewish and were limited in the kinds of jobs they could have. Of course they were restricted in actions like property buying, marrying, etc., and usually had additional taxation imposed.

Where are you from dude, that you think this kind of stuff sounds great? Are you just unaware of it? Or are you some kind of white power guy who feels that "lesser-races" should have restrictive laws placed on them? Do you long for the days of seperate but equal in America? I am being serious.

America fought Italy in WWII, right? Can you show me when, during that war, thousands and thousands of ethnic-Italians were massacred and stripped of their American citizenship? Because you seem to think that there is no difference between little Italy and a Mellah.


The mellah of Fez was not always successful in protecting its dwellers. On May 14, 1465, its inhabitants were nearly all killed by the rebels who overthrew the Merinid dynasty. That attack sparked a wave of violence against the Jews all over Morocco. The immediate cause of the anti-Jewish violence was the appointment of a Jew to the post of vizier.


Kindly remind me when there was a nationwide attack on Italian-Americans following the first one being elected to congress. I don't seem to remember it.

Dude, I seriously recommend you do a little research before you casually disregard systematic oppression against someone else's ethnicity. There is a very long and very brutal history of pogroms and oppression against Jews in Arab lands stretching over centuries. Maybe that sounds like a nice stroll in Chinatown to you, but to the millions who fled it appeared somewhat different. The Jewish population in Morocco pre-dates the Arabs. They were there a loooong time. They did not all decide to leave for no reason whatsoever.

This has nothing to do with Israel or Palestine, by the way. If someone chose to deny the oppression in aparthied south africa or of post-civil war blacks in america I would make the same fuss.



reply posted on 26-11-2006 @ 06:39 PM by Shaktimaan
Now I'll just address some on the non-anti-semitic yet equally retarded stuff you mentioned.


I see you conveniently omit that the partitions followed the defeat of the Ottoman Empire following WW1. That would be a force of arms now wouldn't it? What war, other than diplomatic, did the Zionists wage to secure the creation of Israel within the UN building in New York?


Um... you said that Israel WASN'T the result of a force of arms. That was YOUR point, not mine. What are you trying to say?

You said...


Israel is an artificial construct. It's artificial because it wasn't created by the usual means, force of arms.


The entire middle east was reshaped after the ottoman empire fell. All of it diplomatically. Israel was slated to be created by the British PRIOR to WWI, not after WWII. That is just when the UN validated it. The Balfour declaration stated England's intent to establish Israel. Besides, Jordan was created only a few years before Israel. With no fighting having to do with it following the fall of the ottoman's. How is the decision to declare Jordan a state any different than declaring Israel a state? Neither existed beforehand.

And the answer to your question is "World War Two." The Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was allied with Hitler and the Palestinian Jews were allied with the Allies.


Please research the Sèvres Protocol.


You are talking about the suez crisis. I was talking about the six day war. They are different wars. You can tell which I was referring to because I said "'67." Egypt not only massed troops along its border, but threw out all of the the UN peacekeepers who were monitering the border.


Egypt did not provoke or threaten Israel in the slightest.


OK, let's talk about suez. Closing the canal was a clear violation of the Egyptian-Israeli armistice agreement. As was launching feyadeen attacks across Israel's border which DID happen [snip]. Try reading a book on the subject instead of JewWatch. In 1955 alone, 260 Israeli citizens were killed or wounded by fedayeen.

Staff Edit: Please see Mirthful Me's note below.

[edit on 11-27-2006 by Djarums]


reply posted on 27-11-2006 @ 09:16 PM by Mirthful Me
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