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Clone Christ - DNA on Shroud

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posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 02:38 PM
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Interesting thread to say the least.

As noted above, IF the shoud has Jesus's DNA on it, you could clone it (perhaps, noting bsl4doc post above to the contrary) but even if you have a genetic duplicate, we are all unique because of our life experiences.

Also, if he is the son of god, why would he have plain old DNA?




posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by FredT


Also, if he is the son of god, why would he have plain old DNA?


lol...he wouldn't, he'd have Super-Jew DNA.



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by FredT


Also, if he is the son of god, why would he have plain old DNA?


lol...he wouldn't, he'd have Super-Jew DNA.




From the Fifth Element




It's not that easy..we've never encountered anything like it before..you see normal human beings have 40 DNA memo groums..which is more than enough for any species to perpetuate itself..This one has 200,000.

Talk English Doc.

This cell is like a huge library. It has infinite genetic knowledge stored inside. Almost like it was...engineered.

Sounds like a freak of nature to me.

Yes... I can't wait to meet him.




posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by FredT
Interesting thread to say the least.

As noted above, IF the shoud has Jesus's DNA on it, you could clone it (perhaps, noting bsl4doc post above to the contrary) but even if you have a genetic duplicate, we are all unique because of our life experiences.

Also, if he is the son of god, why would he have plain old DNA?



I always thought that cloning (not knowing jack about DNA or cloning admittedly) was like a Xerox machine. You'll basically get the physical characteristics of the human/animal cloned but not the memories etc.. If somebody clones a full grown man you end up with an infant (twin?) of what was cloned, correct?

My question re: Shroud DNA is what, if anything, could we learn from the DNA of a 2,000 year old sample? Cloning aside (per bsl4doc posts about the problems/impossibility of such) could we learn anything interesting, aside from the fact that the Shroud has DNA on it? Just curious.



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 03:26 PM
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Sorry folks... el dble strikes again. Isn't dial-up grand.

[edit on 4-3-2006 by Rren]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 05:02 AM
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I personally don't find cloning the issue here, due to the fact that it is not really likely to be viable, but also because cloned material is merely a shell, an empty replica of the original, so who cares.

The real issue is can a viable sample actually even reveal an identifiable DNA. This alone could have major implications, for instance proving or disproving the theory that there are direct decendants from Jesus, and it would be intereting to see in eucharistic miracles if the DNA exists there also and matches.

From what I have read so far there are two major quetions that put this entire subject in a suspicious light. First, the cloth has been contaminated and degraded over the years, but second there is a dispute over whether the sample obtained for testing can even be confirmed to have come from the Shroud of Turin.

Considering the samples used to determine that in fact the cloth was misdated upon the last sanctioned inspection, and in fact was from the proper timeframe has not been validated by the Church, due to not being able to verify that the material used was in fact from the Shroud in question, one really has to be suspect of all of this. Certainly the Church itself would be the first to jump at the chance to claim authenticity of the study, and they haven't.

This is not to say that the Church has dismissed the claimed Shroud to be a fake, but they have not backed any claims of proof that it is real either.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 07:24 AM
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Originally posted by Relentless
This is not to say that the Church has dismissed the claimed Shroud
to be a fake, but they have not backed any claims of proof that it is
real either.


On the second post of this thread I gave an ATS thread reference
where some of us discussed and pulled links, both pro and con,
on the authenticity of the shroud.

I happen to believe it probably is the actual burial cloth.

However, it almost doesn't matter if it is or not. My concern when
I posted this link about the upcoming attempt at cloning Christ from
the shroud is that someone somewhere is going to claim that they
have done it.

They will claim that they have the dna ... that they have cloned ...
that they have an embryo ... that they have copied the DNA and
they are going to sell 'christ's blood' on the market, or to rich
Hollywood stars, or _________ (you fill in the blank).

Or some scientist somewhere will inject him/herself with it and
claim supernatural powers. 'All hail the mad scientist who can
save the world' will be the mantra on TV.

Or they will actually start making test tube babies with 'new and
improved christ DNA' ... and we will be expected to 'all hail the
new world leaders'...

It's going to happen at some point. THAT's what I'm afraid of.

Technology WILL reach the point that the DNA and clones will
be able to be made from the little (and very old) blood on the
shroud. It's just a matter of time. It's also just a matter of time
until some adventurous and greedy person takes advantage
of the world with it.



[edit on 3/5/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 08:18 AM
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Though I think along the lines more of R than you, FF (that this could be used in a nefarious plot involving DNA matching and bloodlines and other relics, etc.), I agree with your statement about it not mattering if the shroud is authentic or not. It's the possibility of some future claim they have, in fact, cloned Christ. In the big manipulation arena, it's not what is true that matters...it's how it's presented/used.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 09:53 AM
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The real issue is can a viable sample actually even reveal an identifiable DNA. This alone could have major implications, for instance proving or disproving the theory that there are direct decendants from Jesus, and it would be intereting to see in eucharistic miracles if the DNA exists there also and matches.


No, it most likely can't be used to identify or compare to anyone. When forensic geneticists use DNA analysis, either from nDNA or mtDNA, they use a process called PCR-STR, or polymerase chain reaction short tandem repeat, analysis. This process is based on the fact that there are certain regions where I may have TCCGGGGGT and you may have TCCAAAAAT, thus short tandem repeats. In order to compare these, you have to have at least one region of undamage DNA, but due to the age of this sample, the only comparison would be mtDNA, which could only narrow descendents down to about 1/4 of the globe.


Or some scientist somewhere will inject him/herself with it and
claim supernatural powers. 'All hail the mad scientist who can
save the world' will be the mantra on TV.

Technology WILL reach the point that the DNA and clones will
be able to be made from the little (and very old) blood on the
shroud. It's just a matter of time. It's also just a matter of time
until some adventurous and greedy person takes advantage
of the world with it.


First, the second you inject foreign DNA into your bloodstrem, DNases and Dicer proteins will chop it into tiny bits, thus having no efect on your body. Secondly, technology isn't the issue. There is no amount of technology that can predict which 45 000 bases are missing from a strand of DNA due to oidative damage.

~MFP



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 10:14 AM
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It would make a good film plot with this story or theory.

I would say it would be like bringing the anti-Christ into the world. It would be Christ vs Christ one made by man the other by God the ultimate battle for the end times. It is man's number 666 made by man... Would love to expand this idea feels like a book already in my mind.

In an ideal world I would love to see people cloned, have animals cross breeds and for amusement sake but know its wrong. Works in fiction but not reality.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by The time lord
It would make a good film plot with this story or theory.



Apparently there are already quite a few books along the line. Google Cloning Christ and check it out.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 10:36 AM
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In 325 AD, the Emperor Constantine held the very first Eccumenical Council calling together all the bishops in the Roman Empire. Bottom line, the purpose was (among other things) to decide once and for all if Christ was a human being or "something else". After days of debate, Constantine finally decided he was both. The catholic church would be very different today if he worded his decision differently, but that's another story I can get into another time.

Now... almost 700 years later, a DNA clone could tell us the answer definitively. If the technology was available back then, they would have done it... absolutely no question about it; they were starved for the answers!

So we shouldnt be AFRAID to do it now!

[edit on 5-3-2006 by jupiter869]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by jupiter869
Now... almost 700 years later, a DNA clone could tell us the answer definitively. If the technology was available back then, they would have done it... absolutely no question about it; they were starved for the answers!

So we shouldnt be AFRAID to do it now!

[edit on 5-3-2006 by jupiter869]


I am dumbfounded that anyone even thinks that cloning DNA from the Body of Christ would yeild anything more than another mortal body. His body was human, it may have been unique in some way, who knows, but why would anyone assume that a clone of that body would have any of the God essence that Christ possessed? That was not of the flesh.


So basically, I could care less if they attempted a cloning of Jesus, except that I personally am against cloning in general. However, I'm with FF & Val on this one, the problem is the false claims that could come of an attempt like this or any information from the DNA at all.

While I still question the validity of much of what was in the original article that started this thread, I am sure this is not the last we will hear of it.

[edit on 3/5/2006 by Relentless]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 11:02 AM
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Christ was not immortal he died remember and the resurrected Christ was the one like the son of man with no human DNA he even looks quite different from his shared human form. But still recognisable in the spirit as we do not need a to acknowledge who we are in spiritually or in heaven as we know by seeing without introduction needed. A part of the mind that we are closed off to, they do say we only use a small part of the mind. Maybe that is why the rest is closed off for spiritual awareness that we lack without God.

We could not do much if he was cloned by body as it was the holy spirit that gave him power and God would not be stupid enough to give a man made Jesus the spirit or the power he had. But only the Devil could by mixing his spirit on a DNA level to spawn an anti-Christ.


[edit on 5-3-2006 by The time lord]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by bsl4doc
the second you inject foreign DNA into your bloodstrem, DNases and Dicer proteins will chop it into tiny bits, thus having no efect on your body.


I understand that injecting the DNA into a bloodstream
would have no effect. I do. Really. The problem is that people
will SAY that they are somehow 'improved' or 'divine' or that they
have godblood or powers or whatever. They will present themselves
as such. Or someone will create an embryo and say it is Christs
clone and that we should all worship him/her, or that the alleged
clone should rule the world because, after, it's Christ's clone.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

It doesn't really matter if the shroud is real or not.
At least not as far as I'm concerned on this thread.


Secondly, technology isn't the issue. There is no amount of
technology that can predict which 45 000 bases are missing from a
strand of DNA due to oidative damage.


My point on the technology is that even though we don't have
it NOW, technology is always improving and there will come a point
that some mal-intentioned scientist somewhere will put together a
new Christ child (or Christ children) by using scrapes from the
shroud, scrapes from the blood stains on the Holy Steps in Rome
(which have been preserved under heavy plastic), from the
bones of the relics of Christ's blood relatives (ST. James, St. Joseph,
John the Baptiser) ...

It almost doesn't matter if those are really the bones of the relatives.
It almost doesn't matter if the shroud is authentic.
It almost doesn't matter if the blood stains on the Holy Steps are His.

It will be presented as real. The new and improved scientifically
created children will be presented as god/children that we should
all bow down to, or follow, or purchase because our own biological
children will be 'lesser' quality.

Or if it doesn't get that far, there will be products out on the
market that the rich will be buying claiming synthetic god-dna
(or whatever). If you think kids nowadays aren't part of the
'in' crowd without 200$ sneakers .. just wait until they aren't
part of the 'in' crowd without god dna shots, or they aren't
allowed to go to Yale because they weren't raised with the
expensive 'god dna shots'.

I know it sounds paranoid. I know it sounds like sci-fi.
But honestly ... considering the human condition ... I
see these things as very real possibilities.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall
It's the possibility of some future claim they have, in fact, cloned Christ.
In the big manipulation arena, it's not what is true that matters...it's how
it's presented/used.


EXACTLY!! That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Also - don't you think that others have already thought of the
possibility? Others who actually have access to the items?
There are many different relics out there that claim
to have Christ's blood stains and Christ's blood relatives.

The nails are in Notre Dame.
The lance.
The Holy Steps with the blood stains preserved.
The shroud. And so on ....

Who has access to them all? The Catholic Church of course.
Anyone else? Anyone who has infiltrated the Catholic Church!
I'm sure plenty of groups with mal-intent have. And I'm sure
those groups aren't poor. There are plenty of doctors and/or
scientists who would be madly in love with the idea of working
'underground' for $$$ to play in scientific areas that are not
otherwise allowed.

There are spiritual ramifications to presenting a false christ
that was created out of the 'old Christ'. There are massive
social ramifications, economic ramifications, political ramifications,
and of course commerical money making ramifications.

You can tell me that I sound like I'm writing a bad movie or
something. But I really think it could happen and it wouldn't
matter one speck if the shroud were authentic or not.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 01:00 PM
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Okay...

First of all, Pravda is a tabloid that publishes "entertainment stories" and not real news. There are a number of these publications and any information in them should be suspect at the very least -- perhaps based on some fact, but wildly overwritten with no fact checking. Other such tabloids include "The Sun", and "India Daily."

My favorite story from a tabloid was about the tribe of apes discovered living in a remote area that had discovered how to make and wear -- aprons. They even had pictures of apron-wearing apes.

So, any info found in Pravda should be kept in the same category as "apron-wearing apes."

Now, about the Shroud:

There's some evidence that it's a painting (lack of distortion that would have occurred if it was draped over a body.)


There are reports that the stains that appear to be blood, but the material is so damaged that there's no DNA available: www.shroudstory.com...

This has been confirmed by a number of sources: www.shroud.com...

And apparently the Church (which acquired the Shroud late last century) won't allow further testing of the bloodstained areas: www.shroud2000.com...

There are issues in dating because the shroud has been contaminated by the environment over the centuries since it was found (1300's): www.uthscsa.edu...

The Wikipedia article on this is extremely good, discussing all sides of the issue and putting in notable links: en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
Pravda is a tabloid that publishes "entertainment stories"
and not real news.

Okay.

There's some evidence that it's a painting

Some claim that. Others dispute it. I find those that dispute
that to have the upper hand in the debate. But that's not
really what I'm concerned about.
www.world-mysteries.com...


There are reports that the stains that appear to be blood

The Advanced DNA folks at the University of Texas said that there
were enough blood 'globs' to get the XY from it, that it was a human,
that it was male, and the blood type was AB.
www.direct.ca...


1995 - Dr. Victor Tryon, assistant professor of microbiology
and Director of the University of Texas Center for Advanced DNA
Technologies, isolated signals from three different human male genes
using polymerase chain reaction techniques. The samples were take
from "blood globs" found on the Shroud.


Byrd .. I get what you are saying that Pravda doesn't have real
news stories. But let me add - THIS TIME. I do think it is just a matter
of time before someone trys to clone, or claims that they have cloned
Christ, from any one of the relics that lay claim to carry his blood.

There are enough pieces of blood stained shroud that have been
taken for samples, there are enough other relics with the stains
and/or bone pieces from relatives, that it's just a matter of time
before someone mucks with them, or claims to have mucked with
them ... and then we have a really big can of worms.


[edit on 3/5/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
the Church (which acquired the Shroud late last century) ..


Rome acquired control over it recently, but it was in and out of
Catholic Churches at least back as far as the 1200's. Prior to
that there is some speculation that it could be the other cloth
that is mentioned in history. Image of Edessa.

Rome won't let the shroud have any more pieces taken off.
I understand that. Every piece that gets taken off is destroying
the relic.


[edit on 3/5/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 02:13 PM
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My point on the technology is that even though we don't have
it NOW, technology is always improving and there will come a point
that some mal-intentioned scientist somewhere will put together a
new Christ child (or Christ children) by using scrapes from the
shroud, scrapes from the blood stains on the Holy Steps in Rome
(which have been preserved under heavy plastic), from the
bones of the relics of Christ's blood relatives (ST. James, St. Joseph,
John the Baptiser) ...


I don't think you get what I'm saying about technology. DNA can be read like a book, it consists of only 4 letters: A,T,C, and G. The DNA in this shroud, assuming there is any, is so old and so damaged that it would be unreadable no matter what technology you have. Here's a good example a professor of mine used several years ago when I was in undergraduate college. See if you can read this:

L-- -e no- to --e m---i-g- -f tr-- m--ds.

Can you tell me what that line reads? Is there any technology that you think could take that and produce a definitive reading of it? Just like the DNA code, there are many combinations of letters which can produce a coherent sentence. However, there is no way to look at that and tell for sure what is meant to go in the blanks. Same for DNA. I can give you this:
A-T---C-G---CC--GGG And you couldn't tell me exactly what should fill in the blanks. One base pair difference can mean the difference between a human and a miscarriage.

Oh, and just so you know, my example translates to this:
Let me not to the marriage of true minds.

The first line of Sonnet 110 be Shakespeare.

~MFP

[edit on 3/5/2006 by bsl4doc]



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