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Assault Pistols

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posted on Mar, 3 2006 @ 06:27 PM
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These so called 'Assault Pistols' seem to be based on 9mm SMGs but they are only capable of semi automatic fire

securityarms.com...

The Peruvian army replaced thier Browning HiPowers for somthing based on
this SMG for some reason
securityarms.com...

securityarms.com...

securityarms.com...

securityarms.com...

securityarms.com...

securityarms.com...

securityarms.com...

securityarms.com...

securityarms.com...




[edit on 3-3-2006 by Browno]




posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 05:25 PM
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Browno,

Your point being?

I must admit that most of the photos are X'd out. So either my browser has gone nuts (again) or they have pulled the pics for excess bandwidth usage and possible embarrassment at your intrusion.

In general, 'assault pistols' as typified by say the various Uzi/Mini-U/UAP scaled-frame models are useful only when intended to bring a lot of firepower into a suitcase type environment for protective services and assassins. Something you can't wear discretely but think you need 'just in case'. Which is a joke in it's own right but that's another story.

Of course, to them, the difficulty in fully autofying anything is relatively minute compared to simply having enough rounds onboard to make it worthwhile as a spray suppression weapon.

Either way, about the only thing I can say (for the one remaining system that still has a JPEG available to me) is-

securityarms.com...

"Look ma! See how big my 'gun' is?" Latin/South America being full to the brim with such little-men, big machismo, syndrome in their armed forces.


KPl.


P.S. Keep in mind that the only real reason ANYONE 'wears' (slung or holstered) a gun is to gain authority by intimidating those around him/her into offering pseudo respect as a function of open space and 'focussed attention elsewhere' herd effect.

Such that the security dog in question can both command their attention on a dread-to-look basis. Isolate specific vulnerable points under not-too-close smug-threat. And look for alterations in the flow of crowd-control that may help precue their attention to goats among the sheep who DO dare to look back.

OTOH, people who USE guns, always want a rifle or carbine. Because they need to kill the first time they pull the trigger. And that means aimed fires with a ballistic and round count overmatch sufficient to defeat the threat at any practical engagement distance.

Since a true 'pro' will be gunning for them from a vantage point and onset rate beyond their immediate 'safety zone' of proximity repulsion as well. And so they will never see him coming.

Such being the difference between popup target 'security forces'. And real killers. That the latter never want to look good, only win.



posted on Mar, 10 2006 @ 12:55 PM
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I dont know what the point of these pistols are and who would use them, Maybe they are just for those who want the feel of having a SMG/PDW

The Hungarian Made Danuvia VD-01 is not a bad piece, wonder if it would accept the russian Bison 9mm/Calico type drum magazines?. Id love one in full auto!
securityarms.com...



posted on Mar, 10 2006 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by ch1466



OTOH, people who USE guns, always want a rifle or carbine. Because they need to kill the first time they pull the trigger. And that means aimed fires with a ballistic and round count overmatch sufficient to defeat the threat at any practical engagement distance.



This is not really true the weapon is determined by the situation by any pro. Do the pros always take rifles into CQC? No they dont , they very often they use a SMG like the MP-5 which fires a 9mm handgun round

Stopping power (or lack of) of the 9mm dont mean much when a SEAL puts two rounds in your chest and one in your head





P.S. Keep in mind that the only real reason ANYONE 'wears' (slung or holstered) a gun is to gain authority by intimidating those around him


Once again such over-generalization are almost always wrong just as in this case. I wear a plain view holstered weapon in my job and its also worn because its just practical. I can get to my weapon on my side much faster then if it was under my shirt.

Theres a reason why those fast draw experts dont have their guns tucked under their shirt.

Its also a matter of comfort which is important anyone that wears a gun for long periods of time can tell you that.

So saying "the only real reason ANYONE 'wears' (slung or holstered)a gun is to gain authority by intimidating those around him" is bunk of the highest caliber

That being said I dont really understand the point of these 'Assault Pistols' their role IMO would be much better served by one of these

content.kapowwe.com...

Battle tested and proven time and time again

[edit on 10-3-2006 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Mar, 10 2006 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Browno
securityarms.com...


Nice looking gun but it would have a very heavy front end, i wouldnt like to have to carry it one handed for very long.

Justin



posted on Mar, 10 2006 @ 01:24 PM
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Yeah how well can you aim and shoot one of these things anyways? I'm not sure that an automatic weapon can be handled very well with just one hand.



posted on Mar, 10 2006 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Yeah how well can you aim and shoot one of these things anyways? I'm not sure that an automatic weapon can be handled very well with just one hand.


Even a semi auto handgun shouldnt be fired with a single hand. Automatic makes it even worst if your just spraying at really close range a normal two handed shooting position of a normal handgun could work.

Alot of these full auto handguns the Glock 18 for example atleast offer the options of adding a front grip or even a buttstock to help with control.

heres a picture of a guy shooting two Glock 18s with butt stocks

glock-doc.com...

Dont know if hes hitting anything though. Most of the two weapons at once stuff is best left in movies.



posted on Mar, 10 2006 @ 09:28 PM
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This is my Submachinegun/Assault Pistol of choice (i'd buy one of the gas-powered Airsoft versions if I could afford it
).

Steyr TMP

Controllable, comfortable and looks good too!

Here is a good article on Max Popenker's site: Modern Firearms

Even in computer games it's my favorite gun if it's available



posted on Mar, 10 2006 @ 10:41 PM
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ShadowXIX,

>>
This is not really true the weapon is determined by the situation by any pro. Do the pros always take rifles into CQC? No they dont , they very often they use a SMG like the MP-5 which fires a 9mm handgun round.
>>

If the situation requires autofire, then the answer is yes. A rifle _or carbine_ is always better than an SMG. Autofire gets you suppression at range. At short distances, the folding stock and foregrip buys you accuracy and aimpoint control ONLY when you are shooting semi. It beats the pistol for round count but not the AR and it doesn't get you assured PBA penetration at any combat relevant distances like an AR does.

>>
Stopping power (or lack of) of the 9mm dont mean much when a SEAL puts two rounds in your chest and one in your head

>>

Of course it does. Because he's going to have a very hard time delivering that Mozambique drill against someone with full auto and if he is shooting semi with multiple targets and no backup, he's _dead_.

_Grenades Win Firefights_. By disallowing volume occupancy. Proper military or 'professional' (assassin or merc) CQB is built around that fact and the gun is only there to suppress as you back off a door you can't enter. Or a wall that shoots back.

Furthermore, the difference between combat and police shooting is that, in the former you put bursts into center mass /or whatever bodypart is visible/ for your shooting posture before shifting target and then self to sustain the rate of advance. i.e. there is an assumed multitarget scenario where max firepower is the norm and a phaseline objective requires maneuver.

While in the latter, you are defending self and others against a more lmited threat with lousy ammo so typically keep shooting until the target is no longer capable of posing a threat. Which is one of the reasons why most 'suspects' end up with 12-20 rounds in them.

And why the SOFies Choicers end up using 'special' ammo.

Either way, there is no triple tap as a function of aimpoint selection in CQB. You see a dark mass and you fill your sights with it and you shoot.

>>
Once again such over-generalization are almost always wrong just as in this case. I wear a plain view holstered weapon in my job and its also worn because its just practical. I can get to my weapon on my side much faster then if it was under my shirt.
>>

And if you are a cop or a rentacop it is to display the authority of that weapon, not for 'comfort' or 'quickdraw'. Because you know that if someone comes at you with intent to kill, they will do so with THEIR gun in-hand and probably up and shooting. Long before you can do a damn thing about it.

FWIW, hip holsters add weight to the hip and knees and are NOT 'comfortable' over long periods. Even as they significantly impair running, especially when cut low enough to facilitate anything remotely close to a speed draw. High hip holsters only add 'lean' as a tell to a 2 second dril and thus are not remotely capable of fast draw.

>>
Theres a reason why those fast draw experts dont have their guns tucked under their shirt.
>>

There's a reason why those allowed to carry guns openly in a civil LE mission aren't often shot at. It's called the Blue Wolves Insurance Policy.

OTOH, for those who carry their weapons covertly, there is often a greater need for fast response because they are often themselves or as a function of a client or mission, at greater risk to personal attack than the 'pacification' of regular policing can ensure against for Joe Schmo.

In such a scenario you are as fast as you practice and you had _still_ better see it soming. Because the chances are even greater that the threat will be guns out and shooting before your body knows your dead otherwise.

Familiar with the 'color system' are you?

>>
Its also a matter of comfort which is important anyone that wears a gun for long periods of time can tell you that.
>>

A cops sole purpose with his gun out is to lock down a single crime so that it cannot become a pattern by allowing criminals to escape. Beyond that, he calls for backup. A cops sole purpose with his gun holstered is to command respect based on the symbol of greater-than-thou lethality his killing tool represents.

Don't doubt it. There would be a hundred times as many cop killings if that ever present 'piss me off, I dare'ya!' weapon was not highly visible.

People fear authority. They don't respect it.

>>
That being said I dont really understand the point of these 'Assault Pistols' their role IMO would be much better served by one of these

content.kapowwe.com...

Battle tested and proven time and time again
>>

When? An MP-38/40 or M3 or Thompson or Sten fighting in a war of bolt action rifles? An Uzi in '67? Machine Guns and Artillery are the king and queen of battle sir. SMGs are little more than an ineffective SAW weapon that lets one man die while everybody else rolls into cover.

SMG are assassin's and 'security force' (the guys who come out of the van around the corner /after/ the President has been shot) tools designed specifically to go from covert entry to mass casualty in the least amount of time.

Furthermore, the first time you face such a weapon with _an equivalent gun of your own_, you're going to triple your bystander casualty count and STILL NOT GUARANTEE A VICTORY IN THE FIGHT. Because if he's more than 20-30yrds downrange and you're both spraying over carhoods and countertops, you won't have the time to be accurate or the round count to be 'up' while he reloads.

OTOH, a carbine still gives you a forced open carry sighting radius and when you lift that weapon up and it starts to _Roar_ Ka-POW-POW-POW,
junior is going to wet his britches, drop his piece and start digging his way through the floor as the rounds come through the cabinet or car door in front of him.

And because you can shoot accurately with a real vice folding/extensible (at best) stock, you can make your shots count. While your buddy lofts a small frag or concussion grenade to end the fight.

Even as you also have at least a /chance/ of dealing with someone sitting in a vehicle, 200yds the other side of an airport fence.

The real sadness is that many assault rifles, especially cut down and 'prerail everything' as a basic (good for CQB) carbine, weigh only fractionally more than an SMG. Whose heft is based on having a frame that must withstand the abuse of full auto with next to no barrel length.

That said, the MP-5/MPK series and the Steyr are among many decent guns for their design mission. But that mission is itself historical if not imagined as much as real 'forced entry' SOF-style, IMO. Largely because, as we've seen in Moscow, and Peru and even Entebbe, the first thing the yutzes do is wire the place up with HE and there is no rolling shock of onset fit to counter a couple hundred pounds of TNT. Or barbarians willing to walk around in the middle of a bunch of hostages with their fingers through the pull ring of a suicide vest.

OTOH, SWAT serving a hard warrant _don't need_ to jam the enemy up. When they can instead saturate a house with gas and every room with flashbangs. Past which the fighting has to come to them.

Again, the REAL threat comes from a 10 year old with an AK that can _beat clean_ an entire squad of SMG toters, just on familiarity with the terrain and a weapon whose marginal accuracy is still better than their own weapons over a 50yd separation between buildings.

'CQB' doesn't mean much if you don't live to get there.


KPl.



posted on Mar, 10 2006 @ 11:50 PM
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Please use the quote button it makes your post hard to read without it. Not only for me but for others. Its not that hard


Originally posted by ch1466
If the situation requires autofire, then the answer is yes. A rifle _or carbine_ is always better than an SMG. Autofire gets you suppression at range. At short distances, the folding stock and foregrip buys you accuracy and aimpoint control ONLY when you are shooting semi. It beats the pistol for round count but not the AR and it doesn't get you assured PBA penetration at any combat relevant distances like an AR does.

Well the pros dont agree with you SF and Swat teams all over the world use the MP-5 for CQC. See this is why they are pros and you are not.


Originally posted by ch1466


Of course it does. Because he's going to have a very hard time delivering that Mozambique drill against someone with full auto and if he is shooting semi with multiple targets and no backup, he's _dead_.


Once again the pro seem to use the MP-5 on many occasions. The have a choice of just about any gun you can imagine and in CQC they often choose the MP-5.

See again im going to have to go with the SWAT and SF people over some internet poster. They could all have rifles all the time yet choose to use SMG during some cases

heres a visual aide

hmm should I believe some arm chair warrior or this guy

your own words incase you forgot


OTOH, people who USE guns, always want a rifle or carbine


Well gee this guy could have had a rifle or a carbine and he choose a MP-5. You just wrong by saying that and countless SAS, SEALS have proved it




Originally posted by ch1466
Because you know that if someone comes at you with intent to kill, they will do so with THEIR gun in-hand and probably up and shooting. Long before you can do a damn thing about it.

This is just ridiculus most cops are killed after they let their guard down around a person they assumed to be unarmed but has a concealed weapon on their person or in their car. Most people just dont walk up to random cops ready to kill them for no reason.

Where are you comming up with these fantasies





Originally posted by ch1466

FWIW, hip holsters add weight to the hip and knees and are NOT 'comfortable' over long periods. Even as they significantly impair running, especially when cut low enough to facilitate anything remotely close to a speed draw. High hip holsters only add 'lean' as a tell to a 2 second dril and thus are not remotely capable of fast draw.


Please dont lecture me on hip hoslters youve probally never even worn one in your life. They are more comfortable and practical then having it tucked in the back of your belt or in the front under a shirt.





Originally posted by ch1466

OTOH, for those who carry their weapons covertly, there is often a greater need for fast response because they are often themselves or as a function of a client or mission, at greater risk to personal attack than the 'pacification' of regular policing can ensure against for Joe Schmo.

Yeah Im sure I wonder why SEALS or any SF team dont conceal their secondary weapons. If they offered a faster response surely they would use them



Originally posted by ch1466

A cops sole purpose with his gun out is to lock down a single crime so that it cannot become a pattern by allowing criminals to escape. Beyond that, he calls for backup. A cops sole purpose with his gun holstered is to command respect based on the symbol of greater-than-thou lethality his killing tool represents.

This is just utter bunk to says its the sole reason. Cops actually go out of their way not too look intimidating to the public. We could all be walking around with M-16 and body armour like the troops it would be safer for us but we dont.


Originally posted by ch1466

Don't doubt it. There would be a hundred times as many cop killings if that ever present 'piss me off, I dare'ya!' weapon was not highly visible.

People fear authority. They don't respect it.


More utter bunk why arent hunderds of cops in the UK gun down then. Alot of them dont even carry guns. If it was only peoples fear of the cops evil gun that prevents them???



PS Please for the love of all that is holy learn to use the quote button



posted on Mar, 11 2006 @ 12:12 AM
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Heres a experts opinion on hoslters




The best draw is from a belt holster on the strong side. The strong side belt holster provides for a faster draw, better retention, and fewer problems than other styles of holsters. In my own opinion, the strong side belt holster is the fastest and most comfortable holster


But im sure you know better then this guy and countless cops all around the world


www.sightm1911.com...

[edit on 11-3-2006 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Mar, 11 2006 @ 03:21 PM
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ShadowXIX,

>>
Please use the quote button it makes your post hard to read without it. Not only for me but for others. Its not that hard.
>>

Walk on the line, walk only on the line. Walk to the right following the line.

I write upwards of 20 pages of text a day. I _do not_ find HTML or 'quote buttons' to be convenient because they interrupt the context of the message with blurbs of who-dun-whut authoring and text mods. If you like wasting your time learning different forum systems only to have your words chunkified to the point of meaninglessness by some moronic machine interface, be my guest.

For myself:

> = ' ' offboard source quote.
>>= " " me quoting someone directly.

>>>= " " me quoting someone more than one post ago.

It's simple. It's /fast/ and it make it possible to divide up blocks of text without having to pretend to indents and multiple HTML symbols for quotes. Because it follows in the stream of a conversation rather than the formality of an indictment.

>>
Well the pros dont agree with you SF and Swat teams all over the world use the MP-5 for CQC. See this is why they are pros and you are not.
>>

And a purely-for-PR-purposes glam photo tells you better?

Bwuahahahahhahahah!

And if you wouldn't 'pick and choose' which of my words you find quotable, you would find that I said that there were conditions where the threat was not apt to blow up the building as you transited a long choke or open killing zone to get inside.

OTOH, SOF are normalized spies, assassins and kidnappers 'by profession' whose 'engagement' tactics vary between bribery of those they can't intimidate and bullying of those they can. They do things that other people are _restricted_ from doing and so _surprise_ is on THEIR SIDE.

When it is not, they die like rabid dogs in someone else's backyard. If they don't have weapons overmatch to kill first, dominantly.

>>
Once again the pro seem to use the MP-5 on many occasions. The have a choice of just about any gun you can imagine and in CQC they often choose the MP-5.
>>

And if you choose an MP-5 over an M4 _especially_ when facing a pro threat greater than police can handle, you're just stupid. No matter how tight the doorway or how close the popup threat.

I don't care what badge is on your shoulder or latin on your unit crest.

>>
See again im going to have to go with the SWAT and SF people over some internet poster. They could all have rifles all the time yet choose to use SMG during some cases

...

Well gee this guy could have had a rifle or a carbine and he chooses an MP-5. You're just wrong by saying that and countless SAS, SEALS have proved it
>>

Rah-rah-ram-bo-ah! I swear, your cheerleaderism is estrogenically embarrassing when it's a bloody combat rock star poster you're drooling over.

Real killers use real weapons because they cannot afford to find themselves in a situation where they are undergunned against an enemy that knows what they are doing in an environment familiar to them with the element of surprise lost.

If you want to take the chance that you are NOT facing a 'real killer' on the 10% rule of not needing the best gun you can have, 90% of the time, be my guest.

I suppose that's why you're a cop.

>>
This is just ridiculus most cops are killed after they let their guard down around a person they assumed to be unarmed but has a concealed weapon on their person or in their car. Most people just dont walk up to random cops ready to kill them for no reason.
>>

No most cops are control freak personalities who get off on the right to use force to intimidate. Whether that force is a flashlight in your eyes and a hand on their gun to make sure you know how vulnerable you are or a slung SMG being used as an armrest as you walk by in some Chilean shopping mall or airport, it's all about intimidation.

OTOH, real killers get off on killing because THAT is what they are /hired/ to do. And at the SOF level in particular, there is no one who does not 'enjoy their job, greatly'.

Authority becomes odious as soon at it is monolithic. Cops who cannot negotiate a situation ranging from a traffic stop to a domestic issue are not 'keeping the peace' they are instilling a blank wall of authority. Something which they may describe as order or safety or discipline but which is in fact little more than an agreement with their inner bully's 'fantasies' over control issues.

Thus the 'surprise surprise' issue that they commonly nominate as poor- blue-wolf-pity-me-for-I-am-a-uniformed-target displacement justification doesn't happen unless 'letting their guard down' they _lose control_ of the situation at hand. i.e. The one thing cop personalities /hate/ more than anything and thus the one thing those holding their leashes can use to
nominate an attitude that agrees with their basic character.

>>
Where are you comming up with these fantasies
>>

Where did you learn to spell?

>>
Please dont lecture me on hip hoslters youve probally never even worn one in your life. They are more comfortable and practical then having it tucked in the back of your belt or in the front under a shirt.
>>

And tell me detective, where is your weapon now? Tell me, officer, where is your off duty weapon? Baaah. Cops exist to exert undue authority /irrespective of the situation/ as a function of 'legally mandated' intimidation. 'Comfort' for them has little or nothing to do with where and why they are equipped as they are. Nor does speed of employment vs. a 'sudden' threat.

>>
Yeah Im sure I wonder why SEALS or any SF team dont conceal their secondary weapons. If they offered a faster response surely they would use them.
>>

Because, in a combat scenario, they are federally authorized to carry and even brandish arms openly, something civillians are restricted from at all times. For myself, 4 more mags are worth twice what a pistol and holster is. Because with my gun out and up, I'm gonna get the first target who pops his furry head up if that is physically possible. And the rest of my POINT FIRE = MULTI SHOOTER team is going to pop all his muzzle mutt friends. And then we will take cover, advance to hold contact or gain the objective. Or move away and reload.

All things that JQ Average citizen doesn't get to do. Because that is 'just wrong' if it's not being done on someone else' land.

Boy wouldn't a /cop/ and his holstered weapon look stupid in The Mog.

Methinks you complain too much about hollyweird fantasies sir.

>>
This is just utter bunk to says its the sole reason. Cops actually go out of their way not too look intimidating to the public. We could all be walking around with M-16 and body armour like the troops it would be safer for us but we dont.
>>

No. You walk as wolves among sheep. Your presence is hated but accepted because there is nothing that any can do to stop it and as long as you intimidate all equally at least none can claim 'special treatment' as a justification to try.

If the voting populace said they were sick of cops /presence/ as much as continual abuse of authority we would soon see how very far from a democracy we truly live. Because sheep exist to be sheered and the powers that be employ cops to keep them from being rowdy in the long line to the clippers.

>>
More utter bunk why arent hunderds of cops in the UK gun down then. Alot of them dont even carry guns. If it was only peoples fear of the cops evil gun that prevents them???
>>

Because criminals don't get to retire honorably from the field but must flee immediately to ensure their anonymity, fighting wastes time better spent running. Something which is /marginally/ easier when it's a foot race vs. a billy club.

Because Bobby's still have the Blue Wolves Insurance Policy (kill or beat up one and the pack keeps coming and coming).

Because the Brits helped pioneer public invasion of privacy and the potential for corrupt 'identity overlay' inherent to digital video recording everyone in public places everywhere for purposes of post-crime identification on a national identification database. Kill a cop and they will come to your doorstep to bag your behind.

And lastly, because it is, by and large, illegal to own firearms in Britain. Which means that not only do you not have any choice other than which fraud you elect to office, you also have no recourse (as much good as it would do not withstanding) once you get tired of the oppression.

>>
PS Please for the love of all that is holy learn to use the quote button.
>>

Please for love of all that is atheist, don't act holier than thou with me sir. HERE we are equals. You will never have my respect for all your hurt-pride attempts at pedantically instructing me.

Because in the 'quotes' you choose not to comment on, I see that you know, that I am right.


KPl.



posted on Mar, 11 2006 @ 03:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by ch1466


Walk on the line, walk only on the line. Walk to the right following the line.

I write upwards of 20 pages of text a day. I _do not_ find HTML or 'quote buttons' to be convenient because they interrupt the context of the message with blurbs of who-dun-whut authoring and text mods. If you like wasting your time learning different forum systems only to have your words chunkified to the point of meaninglessness by some moronic machine interface, be my guest.

For myself:

> = ' ' offboard source quote.
>>= " " me quoting someone directly.

>>>= " " me quoting someone more than one post ago.

It's simple. It's /fast/ and it make it possible to divide up blocks of text without having to pretend to indents and multiple HTML symbols for quotes. Because it follows in the stream of a conversation rather than the formality of an indictment.




Fast LOL thats why it takes you all that to explain your system. And guess what its still a mess most people wont talk the time to bother trying to read. If you cant learn how to use a simple different forum system nobody is going to take you serious.

If you write 20 pages of text a day on internet forums that most people are never going to bother reading thats pretty sad

Im starting to suspect these post are more so you can hear yourself type then anything eles

Originally posted by ch1466
And a purely-for-PR-purposes glam photo tells you better?

Bwuahahahahhahahah!

Rah-rah-ram-bo-ah! I swear, your cheerleaderism is estrogenically embarrassing when it's a bloody combat rock star poster you're drooling over.


You armchair warroirs crack me up. I pick a quick picture to prove a point and you think they only use MP-5s in photo ops.

Google Iranian Embassy SAS 1980 guess what some of those SAS were using. The MP-5 this was no Photo-op. What the heck Ill do it for you

Visual aid time again

thats from the Iranian embassy in London 1980
link

But I guess you are smarter then these SAS members
classic armchair warroirs thinking they are smarter then the real PROS. You people are a dime a dozen on the internet

Your just wrong when you said "people that use guns always want a rifle or carbine" and a 100 pages of rants arent going to prove other wise.

The Heckler & Koch MP-5 family of submachine guns is one of the most widely used weapons for CQC assault and counter-terrorist takedowns


[edit on 11-3-2006 by ShadowXIX]

[edit on 11-3-2006 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Mar, 12 2006 @ 01:17 PM
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ShadowXIX,

>>
Fast LOL thats why it takes you all that to explain your system. And guess what its still a mess most people wont talk the time to bother trying to read. If you cant learn how to use a simple different forum system nobody is going to take you serious.
>>

No, I only had to esplain it to you Lucy. I think that says volumes in and of itself.

>>
You armchair warroirs crack me up. I pick a quick picture to prove a point and you think they only use MP-5s in photo ops.
>>

No. You picked a recruitment poster and expected me not to laugh.

>>
Google Iranian Embassy SAS 1980 guess what some of those SAS were using. The MP-5 this was no Photo-op. What the heck Ill do it for you
>>

Frankly, I saw the SAS London videos and believe they were disjointed, slow to gain entry, inefficient at holding contact and sweeping thru both stories to a rejoin point. They were only marginally effective at getting the hostages in a controlled environment and then out, using stairs in particular being an absolute no-no. That said, they were fighting 1980 terrorists so it's not like there was a lot of experience on either side.

Nowadays, the slow onset rates and separated forced entry teams trying to go through second floor windows 'one knee at a time' would lead to dead operators and hostages capped left right and center.

Assuming they didn't just blow the access points and linear transit chokes, 'by video feed', with directional charges as you came down them.

If not the building entirely.

At the same time, do you wanna know what the most popular rifle for the SAS was during the 80's? It wasn't the L85/SA-80 that's for damn sure.

The difference being that-

1. If you can shoot, you have the control not to miss and even an AR
shortie is better than an SMG for assured first round lethality and
aimpoint control.
2. Even if you can use DDs and grenades for /proper/ CQB, you need a
weapon which will reliably hole PBA and shoot through obstacles. 9mm
doesn't drill hard plate. Several thousand fps faster, there are 5.56
rounds that do.
3. If you aren't using silencers to help cue to enemy fires and hold your
own acoustic overload down then, for the length of the combat, the
louder the better, shock of contact to the max.

>>
But I guess you are smarter then these SAS members
classic armchair warroirs thinking they are smarter then the real PROS. You people are a dime a dozen on the internet
>>

I would have come up with a better game plan, yes.

>>
Your just wrong when you said "people that use guns always want a rifle or carbine" and a 100 pages of rants arent going to prove other wise.
>>

Only to someone who has his own 'holster gun' agenda to enforce.

>>
The Heckler & Koch MP-5 family of submachine guns is one of the most widely used weapons for CQC assault and counter-terrorist takedowns
>>

And I said, two posts ago, they are good guns. I don't believe in their effectiveness as more than big-boy-intimidation-toy weapons against anyone with a professional approach to killing. But mechanically they work reliably and have fair balance and control along with adaptability by model to 'special missions' which is their real reason for being.

To stick with the main thread, topic, an assault pistol is an SMG as soon as it goes auto. And an SMG, whether holstered or on a sling is not an effective weapon for law enforcement because it doesn't have the take down to deal with a pro threat (one with autofire of their own) and it doesn't have the control to be used in a crowded situation. Since those are the principal pro-neg issues for which a 'security force' would be looking at them, they must be seen in the hands of police units as nothing but LOMD devices whose presence ensures bully-factor supremacy over the average Joe Sheep which is not a 'mission' that cops need further support in.

We're done here.


KPl.



posted on Mar, 12 2006 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by ch1466


Frankly, I saw the SAS London videos and believe they were disjointed, slow to gain entry, inefficient at holding contact and sweeping thru both stories to a rejoin point. They were only marginally effective at getting the hostages in a controlled environment and then out, using stairs in particular being an absolute no-no. That said, they were fighting 1980 terrorists so it's not like there was a lot of experience on either side.



I would have come up with a better game plan, yes.



This is classic you make thousands of Armchair Warriors proud

Man you proved my point better then I ever could with your own words.

What are you waiting for UK snatch up ch1466 he could teach your SAS boys how to operate correctly all from the comfort of his computer seat



posted on Mar, 12 2006 @ 03:51 PM
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i have to agree with the guy that doesnt know how to use the quotes function the only reason why guns like mp5 even exist today are becuase we usally get into fights with people who cant even afford shoes they dont have any bullet proof vests or helmets and have almost zero millitry tactics so you can pretty much just shoot them with an mp5 or even a pistol basic fact is in a true millitry sense 9mm,.45 are dead ammos there wortless against even the most primitive modern armour.

but on the other hand i do agree with the concept of the P90 and MP7 i think they are the new MP5's but the only problem i have with those is the bullet size i think they should have made it about the size of a 9mm bullet but using the high velocity steel core bullet design it would have been a much better gun overall.



posted on Mar, 12 2006 @ 05:02 PM
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Well theres a large variety of 9mm rounds to choose from High-Velocity Armor-Piercing, hollow point, subsonic etc.. Some MP-5s are chambered in other rounds the 10 mm Auto cartridge for example

www.conjay.com... O%209mm%20x%2019.htm

The MP-5 is chosen for number of reasons over rifles in some cases. Its compact size and weight, high controllability in burst or sustained fire modes. High reliability, Rate of fire, its ablilty to use impressive suppressors. Fear of over penetration.

With the increased use of ever effective body armor you could very well see a shift towards the P-90 or MP-7 type of SMGs but the submachine gun still has a clear role and aint going anywhere anytime soon.

You use the right tool for the job there is no perfect gun for every situation

[edit on 12-3-2006 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 01:33 AM
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9mils do fine for most purposes, if they have vests and helmets, just aim for the head or even the neck, sure it's a more challenging target but who cares when firing full auto? one bullet is bound to hit!

Like Shadow said, SEALs can put 2 in the chest and one in the head in a few seconds! it's not the size of the bullet but where you put the bullet that counts, for military purposes armor penetrating bullets is important since your average grunt is a little bit too pumped up on adrenaline to fire well aimed shots, they aim for centre-mass and pray it takes them down.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 09:55 AM
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To be honuest it really depends on the situation doesnt it?

I mean would you take JUST MP5's into an area with open fields of fire, low cover and plently of high ground?

No you'd take a rilfe BUT you'd also take a few SMG's alone with you....it all depends on the circumstances.

BTW: If swat teams are using a 7.62 or 5.56 rifle, what do you think is going to happen to the poor bugger who gets hit once the round exits the target, goes through the wall then enters the poor buggers head?



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 09:40 PM
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You have voted ch1466 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.


I agree what iqonx said.

Terrorist are poorly armed while if they faced off againest a professional killer a MP5 would be useless considering the firepower difference



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