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ATS: Vladimir Bukovksy Warns of EU Dictatorship.

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posted on Mar, 3 2006 @ 03:29 AM
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Vladimir Bukovksy, a 63 year old Soviet dissident who spent 12 years in Soviet jails, labour camps and psychiatric institutions, and who was later expelled from the USSR, called the European Union a "monster" that must be destroyed in a speech delivered last week in Brussels. Mr. Bukovksy mentioned secret documents which were still classified but which he was allowed to read and which mention, according to him, a conspiracy to turn the European Union into a socialist organization.
 



www.brusselsjournal.com
Paul Belien: You were a very famous Soviet dissident and now you are drawing a parallel between the European Union and the Soviet Union. Can you explain this?

Vladimir Bukovsky: I am referrring to structures, to certain ideologies being instilled, to the plans, the direction, the inevitable expansion, the obliteration of nations, which was the purpose of the Soviet Union. Most people do not understand this. They do not know it, but we do because we were raised in the Soviet Union where we had to study the Soviet ideology in school and at university. The ultimate purpose of the Soviet Union was to create a new historic entity, the Soviet people, all around the globe. The same is true in the EU today. They are trying to create a new people. They call this people “Europeans”, whatever that means.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


After spending 12 years in soviet Gulags, labor camps and psychiatric institutions because as a young man he exposed the use of psychiatric imprisonment against political prisoners in the USSR, Mr. Bukovksy was later expelled to the west, but was invited in 1992 to serve as an expert for a trial which would determine if the Soviet Communist Party was a criminal institution.

To prepare for the trial he was allowed to read documents from the Soviet secret files which are still classified, and few people have been able to read, where he uncovered the conspiracy.

I just have to wonder, if this story is true, why would the present Soviet regime allow Mr. Bukovksy to read these files which are still classified? Was he able to read them all?

All of the present politicians, including Vladimir Putin, were part of the Communist party. Why would they allow this man to read these documents?

Could it be true that once the "supposed" collapse of the USSR that all those politicians which are now democratic, and used to be Communist for decades suddenly decided to stop this plan and decided to make it public through Vladimir Bukovksy?

Or is this an attempt to stop the damage that other former Russian officers have done throughout the years and who also warned the west of this conspiracy? Men such as Colonel Stanislav Lunev, and Anatoliy Golitsyn. Men who had served under the Communist regime, saw the plans the Kremlim had to decieve the west and decided not to be part of this plan and defected to the west.

Is Vladimir Bukovsky, without his knowledge, being used to make the west believe that the present Russian regime, which has former communists in power these days, is not following up this plan?

Is it really true that the Russian regime has given up it's old master plan?, or is this an attempt to silence other former Soviet dissidents? IMHO it is the later.


Related Links:

www.umd.umich.edu...

www.junepress.com...

psi.ece.jhu.edu...

www.foreignaffairs.org...


[edit on 3-3-2006 by Muaddib]




posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 08:14 PM
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Wait, so you're saying that this guy thinks the European Union is a clandestine Soviet conspiracy? Europe may be socialist but it most definately is not communist or even a shadow of the repression shown in the Soviet Union.

If the EU is a Soviet plot I think they arent doing very well yet.



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 10:02 PM
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no i think its basically they set the guy loose to make up a crazy story no one can believe so that what they are doing they can get away with. its a political game where they have an issue, and when the issue needs to be debated, they take that issue, blow it way out of proportion to what it actuallly is so they can fully discredit it and move along. its like reassurance to misguide the people. they come up with an over the edge conspiracy, so that mellow version conspiracy never gets noticed.



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 11:52 PM
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So what?

Why should'nt the E.U become socialist an one large entity, for one Europe has socilaist views as is, and it really would'nt be a horrible thing for them all to become socialist, and becoming one big country, well they'd become much more powerul.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 12:01 AM
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It is good that this man came forward and he may convince others of what he has learned but this is hardly news to many in the conspiracy world. Many believe that Europe is heavily socialist now and likely on its way to communism.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 02:34 AM
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I just have to wonder, if this story is true, why would the present Soviet regime allow Mr. Bukovksy to read these files which are still classified? Was he able to read them all?


Present Soviet regime? Your a few years behind, matey. Also, he read the documents in 1992, not the present, when the Soviets had still collapsed.

And as to your (or his) ascertion that the EU is going to become a Dictatorial Empire is laughable. We can't even agree on how to measure the weight of our Bananas, let alone organise into a new, Communist Empire....

I wonder who posted this? Got a few candidates lined up already.....



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 02:38 AM
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He should have warned about US becoming a dictatorship instead of EU. With Bush at the white house, everything is possible.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 05:54 AM
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Nyet, Nyet, Nyet is all a beeg conspeeracy to eensure true leeder of coming eempire is not discovered. Outer Mongolia is not ready yet.

Seriously, the only plans this guy probably ever read were ones he made up himself.

[edit on 5-3-2006 by Astronomer68]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by stumason

Present Soviet regime? Your a few years behind, matey. Also, he read the documents in 1992, not the present, when the Soviets had still collapsed.


Shall we take a look at what the word regime means?, if you had any doubts you should have looked it up yourself.


Web definitions for regime
government: the organization that is the governing authority of a political unit; "the government reduced taxes"; "the matter was referred to higher authorities"


Excerpted from.
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

As for me linking the present administration in Russia with the one in 1992, it is simply because the former presiden of Russia, Yeltsin, nominated his favorite candidate for president, which by some miracle became the president.

Let me show you what I mean.


Putin was recruited from a position in Leningrad's city government to the Kremlin in 1996 as an aide to property manager Pavel Borodin, who now faces bribery and corruption charges. In 1998, Yeltsin appointed Putin head of the Federal Security Service, the successor to the K.G.B., and called on him in March 1999 to head Russia's security council. In August 1999 Yeltsin fired Prime Minister Sergei Stepashin, 47, and his entire cabinet, and promoted Putin, making him heir-apparent to the presidency. It was the fourth time in 17 months that Yeltsin had sacked Russia's government.


Excerpted from.
www.infoplease.com...

---edited to add- And let's not forget what Yeltsin got out of nominating Putin as president...



One of his first moves as president was to grant Yeltsin and his family immunity from future investigation into corruption charges.


Excerpted from above link.

BTW, i don't know about you but I think that the purpoted plot by the Communists in 1991 has been the fastest and cleanest attempted overthrow of a government that I have ever seen. There were 3 purported people killed in this plot and one purpoted suicide, that of Kruchina.

One more thing that few people even consider is how easy Russia was able to convince the rest of the former Soviet States to give up their nuclear weapons.


Russia managed to make the other ex-Soviet republics voluntarily disarm themselves of nuclear weapons and concentrated them under the command of the still effective rocket and space forces, but for the most part the Russian army and fleet were in near disarray by 1991


Excerpted from.
encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com...



Originally posted by stumason
And as to your (or his) ascertion that the EU is going to become a Dictatorial Empire is laughable.


Ah, and you came up with this conclusion from your impeccable sources and links or just because it is your "opinion" this cannot happen?


Originally posted by stumason
We can't even agree on how to measure the weight of our Bananas, let alone organise into a new, Communist Empire....


First, I find it strange that you would link "socialism", which is what this conspiracy purportedly states, with "communism".

Second, according to the following site, they say quite the contrary to what you are claiming.

europa.eu.int...



Originally posted by stumason
I wonder who posted this? Got a few candidates lined up already.....


I did, and tell us, exactly how does your above statement debunks what this man, and the article has to say?................. My guess is that you can't, hence you resort to try to attack me for posting this. I can see where the vote "no, not right for ATSNN" came from now....

BTW, did you even bother to read anything in the linked article?


[edit on 5-3-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 04:45 PM
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Astronomer, the only problem is that this man is not the only one who comes from the former USSR and states this.

In fact most of what men like Bukovsky have been warning the west about has come true throughout the years, from the collapse of the USSR and the Berlin wall, to the present.

Let me show you what some of these men, such as Golitsyn have said and see if it has come true or not. the following are excerpts from a book written in 1984 from one of the highest Soviet officers to have defected to the west.


Among such previously unthinkable stratagems are the introduction of false liberalization in Eastern Europe and, probably, the Soviet Union, and the exhibition of spurious independence on the part of the regimes in Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland.

Golitsyn predicted the "breakup" of the communist bloc in Eastern Europe as a technique to be used by the Soviet government to entice Europe to move more towards socialism and to align itself eventually with the USSR against the United States.8 The Third World would then join communist Russia and socialist Western Europe against the US and its allies. Then there would be a joint drive by the Soviet bloc and a socialist Europe to push the US out of Europe and into nuclear disarmament. A powerful world federation of communist states would emerge and the US would be induced to "converge" on communist terms.


Excerpted from.
www.umd.umich.edu...

Let me just give you an example. Hasn't the present Soviet regime, on the one hand given evidence to the U.S. against the regime in Iraq, and on the other hand claimed to the world that the U.S. didn't have any reasons for ousting Saddam's regime?

What about what is happening now with Iran?

Both Russia and China were in favor of taking Iran to the security council of the UN for possible sanctions, now the Chinese government has backed out from their position because they have a multibillion deal with Iran to buy oil, and Russia is trying to play the diplomat between Iran and the rest of the world while trying to make a buck or two, meanwhile the Iranian regime keeps stating that soon the U.S. and Israel will disapear, that it is alright for their regime to get nuclear weapons and to use them etc, etc



[edit on 5-3-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 05:33 PM
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That conspiracy assumes that the people of those nations would be complicit and that the current politicians would differ their powers to a centralized politburo. Do you seriously think, after tasting liberalization and democracy, that the Warsaw pact nations would fall back into line behind a resurgent USSR? I seriously doubt they would, and as for Western Europe...not a chance.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 05:51 PM
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Muaddib one of the things I have seen over my lifetime (amongst many others) is the Soviet Union become more capitalistic and the U.S. and it's
allies become more socialistic. The same process is happening even now to China. As this trend continues (and I see absolutely nothing slowing it down or stopping it), our respective governments are becoming more and more alike and our differences fewer and fewer. Eventually, there will be very, very little difference between us. When that time comes what difference will it make who is in charge? By then big syndicates and corporations will be calling the shots anyway.



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 08:33 PM
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I'm not going to say that I'm quite scared yet, but this is really brilliant. Actually it's completely obvious; just not to the Western mindset.

Marxism always held that the dictatorship of the proletariat had to give way to the collapse of borders and of government.

Further, Marx would have said that Russia was still Feudal and was not ready for the dictatorship of the proletariat- capitalism has to come first.

Either way you slice it, with this information in hand it is much easier to see the fall of the Soviet Union as a reform of Communism, rather than the fall of it. Europe IS ready, according to Marxist doctrine, for Socialism under a dictatorship of the proletariat, and it's being done very differently than a communist revolution.

I could seriously believe that true believers of Marxism might have seen the failure of the Soviet Union as a historical inevitability and made the decision to drop it, thus removing the threat to Europe and the appeal of alliance with Capitalist America.

Could the EU be the new hope of communism?

All of this being said- Marxism- though perhaps not Marx- is wrong. As Marx put it, "All I know is that I am not a Marxist."
Maxism abuses the dialectic model of history by postulating socialism as the antithesis to capitalism and communism as the synthesis- if anything the exact opposite is true.

Perhaps this was realized however. Most great communists eventually revise Marx. Lenin Did, Stalin, Mao, etc.



posted on Mar, 6 2006 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by subz
That conspiracy assumes that the people of those nations would be complicit and that the current politicians would differ their powers to a centralized politburo. Do you seriously think, after tasting liberalization and democracy, that the Warsaw pact nations would fall back into line behind a resurgent USSR? I seriously doubt they would, and as for Western Europe...not a chance.


Not really, the public opinion of people can be changed and as I have already mentioned as an example, while the Russian government was being friendly with the U.S. government and giving direct evidence and statements, including statements which came directly from Putin, that Saddam was plotting to make terrorist attacks on the U.S. Yet, the same Russian government, stated to most of the world that the U.S. government had no reason to oust Saddam's regime.

This is an obvious backstab by the Russian government to the U.S., and now Russia is "purportedly" working as the intermediary between the west and the rest of the world dealing with Iran, hence giving the impression, imho, that the Russian government is the saviour of the world.

That's an appealing call to the masses of the world to see Russia as the hope for the future isn't it?, and it seems to be working. Yet on the meanwhile, while the Russian government gives this illusion to the world of being the intermediary that will save the human race, the Russian people can't vote for governors, the kremlim does, the Russian people don't receive any news which is critical of Putin's actions, they have been shut down and all media is controlled by the government, etc, etc.

There is a systematic control being done by the Russian government on it's own people while at the same time Russia is portraying itself to the world as "an intermediary to world peace", changing public opinion against the west, and in favour of Russia as they keep using the tactics I mentioned above.



[edit on 6-3-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 6 2006 @ 01:01 PM
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YES!

BEWARE of EU Dictatorship!

SLOVENIA is going to rule the world when we get to POWER in EU!

FEAR US!

FEAR is the Path to the DARK SIDE.


Dark Side of the Force is Strong in EU.

Hey - is this Vladimir brother of Charles Bukovsky?



Jokes Aside,

why do you think that the EU is expandig the circle so Fast, uniting more and more countries into one BIG Union, quickly turning all the currencies to Euros?

Well - it was Hitlers Dream to see a United Europe, right?

It sure is coming to Life as we speak.

But I doubt it has something to do with ex-Soviet Union...



posted on Mar, 6 2006 @ 07:38 PM
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Ok look what I want to know from everyone who believes Communism is the source of evil, why do you all believe Communism equals a dictatorship or oppressive regime? It can be very possible to have a Democratic democracy. I mean tell me how it would not work? The core essentials will be provided to ALL citizens. Defense, Education, shelter, food, water, hygiene, medical care, energy, waste management(recycling), infrastructure upkeep. Those right there is all the government as communism would be required to provide its citizens. All it does is ensure no one remains homeless, hungry, neglected even if they do not have the proper skills, which can be taught through their education programs. Everyone will have the right to live equally, just like in a free world!!! Since all the bare necessities are given, the only thing the citizen would need to do is work harder in order to attain greater standards of living. Lavishness and consumption.

Hmm that’s strange, it sounds almost exactly like Capitalism, and except capitalist governments do not cover about half of the essentials a communist nation would.

You could still buy and sell cell phones, iPods, movies and music, eat out at diners and open up restaurants. It starting to sound to me like the only difference between the two is that Capitalists spend less of their money on helping their own people and force them instead to take care of themselves while they tax them insanely just to live on the land and live their lives. So if both of the ideals will tax us regardless, why don't we pick the one that offers more human services?



posted on Mar, 6 2006 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by DYepes
Ok look what I want to know from everyone who believes Communism is the source of evil, why do you all believe Communism equals a dictatorship or oppressive regime?


DYeps, I think you're confusing socialism with communism. I have no problem with the Favian Socialism that most of the world, especially Europe, has worked with to one extent or another. It IS possible, and to a limited extent vitally necessary for the government to protect the ability of the common citizen to have at least a limited stake in the most basic fruits of our nation and society.

Certainly nobody would argue that access to streets and sidewalks be limited to those who can afford to buy a pass from a private street company, for example. So clearly a certain democratically agreed upon level of common burden for and enjoyment of public works (which is, ultimately, socialist) is important.

Communism however calls for a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat", at least ostensibly, and this dictatorship has almost invariably been dominated not by the proletariat as a voting majority, but by an elite few within the Communist Party who arrange elections as they see fit- Vote! Vote for the central-committee approved Communist of your choice, but for God sake vote to give our pseudo-republican bureaucracy a respectable democratic facade!

This phase of communism, which no communist nation has ever successfully exited, is the chink in communism's armor. The Dictatorship of the Proletariat inevitably becomes a dictatorship of the party, because if it were not so, the proletariat would, depending on your point of view, either reject communism, or be decieved and cheated out of communism by the bourgeoise.

Communism proper, referring to the Utopian system which has never been realized, is slightly more democratic- in fact it is the ultimate democracy- it is anarchy. A classless, ungoverned, egalitarian utopia where everyone does what need be done without orders and takes only what they need. The closest thing to success it has ever seen is in small specialized communities, usually agrarian ones, and egalitarian as these may have been they were never truly anarchic.



Since all the bare necessities are given, the only thing the citizen would need to do is work harder in order to attain greater standards of living. Lavishness and consumption.


As I suspected, you are talking about Socialism. You can't obtain anything extra under pure communism. Pure communism is a feast-or-famine deal for everyone.

The problem with Communism is not the Socialist aspects. The dictatorial aspects are the problem. This problem is present in every form of government yet devised by mankind, however in Communism it is compounded by the complete lack of recourse for the majority.

In theory, a Democratic Republic can shake up the system. We can vote in our party primaries, we can get additional parties on the ballot, we can have write-in campaigns, we can in some cases use referenda, etc.
No such recourse exists for even the most popular dissent under a communist system because it is a dictatorship by a single party.


I've got a spot in my heart for Favian Socialism; I'm not a full-on socialist, but I see the necessity of limited socialism. Show me a right-winger who believes in maintaining a standing national army but doesn't like socialism, and I'll show you somebody who doesn't fully understand socialism. Communism is another story.


Last but not least- Communism isn't the source of all evil. Communism is Johnny-come-lately in a long line of evils that have borne the name of government over the last few thousand years.



posted on Mar, 6 2006 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by DYepes
...................
Hmm that’s strange, it sounds almost exactly like Capitalism, and except capitalist governments do not cover about half of the essentials a communist nation would.
....................
So if both of the ideals will tax us regardless, why don't we pick the one that offers more human services?


You are obviously a bit confused. Communism is totally different to what you mentioned above. I know because I was born in a Communist country, and I have seen what Communism does to the people and to a country.

No Communist country has ever done any of what you stated. I think you need to start reading some books on Communism from the mouth, or hand, of people who have lived through those dictatorships.

BTW, if Socialism was better than Capitalism, why is it that there were riots all over Europe not too long ago? Perhaps you should search what happened in those riots, how they started, and why, then come back and tell us how well does Socialism takes care of the poor, and how it gives everyone an ipod, a cell phone, etc, etc.

[edit on 6-3-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 07:55 AM
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Ok I think this guy is just paraniod, if the EU was going to turn into a massive country then that might require it first to disolve all the other governments INSIDE the EU...

Mind you....mabye its the next step in britains master plan to resecure her empire! Muw ha ha!



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
Ok I think this guy is just paraniod, if the EU was going to turn into a massive country then that might require it first to disolve all the other governments INSIDE the EU...


Not necessarily. Under the Articles of Confederation the American states were very nearly sovereign, but tightly and inextricably bound to a mutual alliance.
When America illegally adopted the US Constitution it did not disolve these governments, or even assert any great amount of authority over their function; it merely usurped many of their powers.

We Americans set the gold standard for autocoups, and it's a model I wouldn't be at all shocked to see the EU follow.



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