Students walk out in protest of teacher suspension

In another Thread I played Devil's Advocate for Pro Bushies, This time for the sake of Devils Advocate for pro-Not Bushie.

There is no Leftist Main stream Television media anymore (John Stewart the only), so I think maybe the teacher was trying to reach these kids by talking to them directly. Misguided he was, yes with the rhetoric of a Hitler/Bush comparison, but he was giving them a dissenting opinion from the "enforced" norm.

Turn on any major news station, and the pro-bushie lemmings groom their audience to love bushie.

Where else do our next generations have to turn to for ideals, but school?
Television is no good, it's all either a Dog and Pony show, similar to Keeping the masses stupidly entertained while Rome is in shambles, or it's hardcore 1 sided political views with 1 token democrat who gets ridiculed for "being outside the box"?

Also kids don't use the net much for anything but fun and schoolwork. I don't know any kids who cruise for political discussion boards.

So where do kids find out about non-Republican politics, just about anywhere aside from tv, the internet, and their parents. Hmm, that leaves only one place SCHOOL.

I totally babbled all of that, I'm so tired, hope it proved insightfull.

-ADHDsux4me

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Karen Rouse
March 2, 2006
Denver Post

James McGrath Morris, an author who has written about academic
freedom issues, said Bennish's comments are acceptable for an adult
audience, but they are hard to defend in a high school classroom.

In a number of legal cases, courts have ruled that "up until the age of
majority, children are easily influenced ... in a way that they don't have
the faculties to sort out rights from wrongs," Morris said.

That is not scientific evidence....it is an "expert" quoting a legal assumption on the part of the courts. What were the nature of the facts in the court cases he claims would hold this position on this fact pattern?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Bush = Hitler

Listen to the tape again. Did he in fact say that? No.

At least get the facts right.


[edit on 3-3-2006 by loam]

Originally posted by loam
Prove that teachers have the same level of political
influence on children as parents have...

Read Erik Erikson's stages of psychosocial development.
Stage V - 12 to 18 years (high school level)
The pschyosocicial crises at this age is Identity vs Role
Confusion. The significant relationships are peer groups,
models of leadership (teachers), and school. Teachers
and peers take on increasing importance while the influence
of the parent decreases.

QUOTE from Educational Psychology by Robert E. Slavin,
page 51 on Erikson - The question "who am I" becomes important
during adolescence. To answer it, adolescents increasingly turn
away from parents and toward peer groups. Erikson believed that
during adolescence the individual's rapidly changing psysiology,
coupled with pressures to make decisions about future education
and career, creats the need to question and redefine the pschyosocial
identity established during the earlier stages (with parents).
Adolescence is a time of change. Teenagers experiment with
various sexual, occupational, and educational roles as they try to
find out who they are and who they can be. This new sense of
self, or 'ego identity', is not simply the sum of prior identifications.
Rather, it is a reassembly or 'an alignment' of the individual's
basic drives (ego) with his or her endowment (resolution of
previous crises) and his or her opportunities (needs, skills, goals,
and demands of adolescence and approaching adulthood).

Where are your answers to my other questions?

Hey ... give me a few minutes. You keep throwing
them out ...

Originally posted by ADHDsux4me
So where do kids find out about non-Republican politics,

Not in a high school geography class. College political science
perhaps. But not when they are supposed to be learning
other things ... and the teacher goes off on a pontifical rant
on subjects not to be covered in that class.

Originally posted by loam
Provide the precise legal citation.

From the superintendent of that school system -

www.denverpost.com...

excerpt

Denver Post

Superintendent Monte Moses, who received a copy of the recording on
Monday from 850 KOA-AM radio show host Mike Rosen, said it appears
"a breach of district policy" occurred.

"Our policy calls for both sides to be present in the interest of
intellectual discourse," Moses said. Bennish's presentation
appeared to be unbalanced, he said.

The district is looking into whether the incident was an isolated one
and will ensure that a balanced viewpoint of the president's State
of the Union address is provided to students, Moses said.

I doubt the town has a copy of the teacher contracts on line.
But I'll take a look around and see if I can find one.


[edit on 3/3/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
[Read Erik Erikson's stages of psychosocial development.
Stage V - 12 to 18 years (high school level)
The pschyosocicial crises at this age is Identity vs Role
Confusion. The significant relationships are peer groups,
models of leadership (teachers), and school. Teachers
and peers take on increasing importance while the influence
of the parent decreases.

QUOTE from Educational Psychology by Robert E. Slavin,
page 51 on Erikson - The question "who am I" becomes important
during adolescence. To answer it, adolescents increasingly turn
away from parents and toward peer groups. Erikson believed that
during adolescence the individual's rapidly changing psysiology,
coupled with pressures to make decisions about future education
and career, creats the need to question and redefine the pschyosocial
identity established during the earlier stages (with parents).
Adolescence is a time of change. Teenagers experiment with
various sexual, occupational, and educational roles as they try to
find out who they are and who they can be. This new sense of
self, or 'ego identity', is not simply the sum of prior identifications.
Rather, it is a reassembly or 'an alignment' of the individual's
basic drives (ego) with his or her endowment (resolution of
previous crises) and his or her opportunities (needs, skills, goals,
and demands of adolescence and approaching adulthood).

None of this is directly on point with regard to political attitudes...

I think you find the literature says otherwise with regard to who has more political influence...teachers or parents...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
"Our policy..."

Ah...a school policy is not quite a law, now, is it? Shall I point to all of the school policies that over time were in fact in themselves violations of law?

[edit on 3-3-2006 by loam]

As far as Child Psyhcology goes ... as far as Educational Psychology
goes... as far as Erikson, Freud, and even Kohlberg go ... the
parents are the primary influence until the tween years. This then
shifts to peers and school. And then in the actual teen years this
shifts to peer groups and those in leadership positions over the
child (teachers). Not caregivers anymore ... but those in leadership
positions. These are the ones that spend the most time with the
child, that have the most social impact, that have the greatest
influence on reasoning and social development.

This is for personal AND social development.

A good book is 'Childhood and Society' by Erik Erikson.

Kohlberg's stages of Moral reasoning has the Level II - Conventional
Level (where most teens are) as Stage III and Stage IV - boiled down
it is doing whatever pleases or is approved by those 'in charge' and
full respect for authority figures to maintain ones own social standing
and/or order.

Another good book - Kohlberg 'Stage and Sequence:
The Cognitive-Developmental Approach to Socializaton'.

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by FlyersFan
"Our policy..."

Ah...a school policy is not quite a law, now, is it?

He violated school law.
He did not teach what his contract called him to teach.
He did not teach what the town and state required him to teach.

AS I SAID - I have to look to see if there is a copy of the
contract online and a copy of the town/state requirements online.
(doubt it'll be there, but I'll get looking AFTER I finish with the
psychology of teens ... )

Originally posted by FlyersFan
As far as Child Psyhcology goes ... as far as Educational Psychology
goes... as far as Erikson, Freud, and even Kohlberg go ... the
parents are the primary influence until the tween years. This then
shifts to peers and school. And then in the actual teen years this
shifts to peer groups and those in leadership positions over the
child (teachers). Not caregivers anymore ... but those in leadership
positions. These are the ones that spend the most time with the
child, that have the most social impact, that have the greatest
influence on reasoning and social development.

This is for personal AND social development.

A good book is 'Childhood and Society' by Erik Erikson.

Kohlberg's stages of Moral reasoning has the Level II - Conventional
Level (where most teens are) as Stage III and Stage IV - boiled down
it is doing whatever pleases or is approved by those 'in charge' and
full respect for authority figures to maintain ones own social standing
and/or order.

Another good book - Kohlberg 'Stage and Sequence:
The Cognitive-Developmental Approach to Socializaton'.

You still have not cited a single study that involves teacher vs. parent influence on political thought.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
He violated school law.
He did not teach what his contract called him to teach.
He did not teach what the town and state required him to teach.

All assumptions on your part.

[edit on 3-3-2006 by loam]

Originally posted by loam
I think you find the literature says otherwise with regard
to who has more political influence...teachers or parents...

All the books and shrinks I quoted state that as the children
get older, the influence of parents decreases and the influence
of other authority figures sharply increases.

The older they get, the more political influence the authority
figure will have.

Even though I'm right ... (as the books I have referenced will
tell you) ... does 'more' matter? The teacher is an authority figure.
One that, as I have shown, children are told NOT to rebel against
and to respect and to do as told from. He pontificated on subjects
OUTSIDE that which he was to teach and allegedly he did it a lot.
He DOES have major influence on them. He knew this. He was
indoctrinating.

As a parent, I'd be ticked at ANY indoctrination ... any side stepping
the approved materials ... geeeeeze ... as I said, I wouldn't want
some fundamentalist ______ (fill in the blank) religious person
coming in and doing the same thing about his religion that this
guy did about his politics.

Gotta' go .... But later I'll see if the laws of that area are on line.

Originally posted by loam
You still have not cited a single study that involves teacher vs. parent influence on political thought.

Loam ... loam ... loam ....

I cited very well known and respected psychologists and their
conclusions based on years of study and research.

I guess you need a psychology degree to be able to understand
that when Erikson (and the rest) say that the primary psychosocial
developmental influence for children shifts in the teen years to those in
positions of authority (teachers) - that includes just about everything
that has to do with that child - everything in society includes politics.

Get the books cited. Read them. Tons of studies done on who
and what influence children and at what stages they are in.

I REALLY have to go. I'll be back later.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I REALLY have to go. I'll be back later.

Me too. When I return, I'll have some scientific literature to share with you.

Simple "geography" is a 5th grade subject. Jay Bennish teaches "World Geography". Fox news just forgot that part. See curriculum below.

I don't have enough information (that I trust) to make a jugdment one way or another on this teacher, but as I've read about this and listened to the tape, I find myself wishing that I had had more teachers with (what appears to be) such passion and concern about our situation in the world today.

The teachers I remember, and who had a positive impact on me, are the ones who DID have a personal opinion about things, not the ones who stuck tediously to the lesson plan. I would prefer a teacher that made my kids think, be curious, develop opinions and communicate - as opposed to one who belched out information for them to memorize.

I don't believe the kid's claim that this went on for 80% of the time. This was on the morning after the State of the Union speech. I remember certain current events being brought into classrooms in my youth. Ask yourself why this kid taped his teacher on this particular day, and hand it over to his dad...

The teacher made some EXCELLENT points. He's making these kids think! Opening their minds. I think it's a good thing. What's wrong with "what's called North Carolina"?

He said some of the things Bush said sounded a lot like things Hitler said. And he's right! It's true! He also said, "I'm not saying Bush and Hitler are the same... obviously they're not." I think some people are sensitive to hearing Bush and Hitler in the same sentence.

On the school's website, Jay Bennish is listed as teaching "Social Studies".

Overland High School

Social Studies

Gerry Camilli (Coordinator)
Rachel Advincula
Gretchen Aufderheyde
Jay Bennish
...
This department offers a wide variety of courses such as World Geography, Western Civilization, AP European History, Social Studies 11-American Studies, AP Human Geography, United States History & Government, AP American History, Introduction to Psychology, Contemporary Issues, The American Dream & Economics, and Comparative World Religions.

Here is a breakdown of high school World Geography Curriculum:

Students of World Geography learn about the spatial distribution of people, places, physical features, resources, and human activities. They will ask the questions asked by geographers as they study the world: What are the physical and human characteristics of places? Why are things located where they are? What is the significance of the location of things? What patterns are reflected in the groupings of things?

Five fundamental themes and analytical questions introduced. They are as follows:

* LOCATION: What is the location of this place on the map? What is its location relative to other places?
* PLACE: What are the physical and cultural characteristics of this place? What role do these two aspects of the environment play in the character of this locale? How are the people who live here affected by the physical characteristics of this place, and how do they affect the place?
* HUMAN-ENVIRONMENTAL INTERACTION: How do location and the physical environment affect the lives of people? What have people done to modify this setting, this environment we are studying? How have people adapted to this physical environment?
* MOVEMENT: What role have human migration, cultural diffusion, or the transportation of resources and goods had in shaping the world? How has the movement of people, ideas, and goods influenced life in this place? How is this place connected to other places by these movements?
* REGIONS: How are regions defined? Of what regions is a given place a part? How do regions change, how have they changed, and why? What is the significance of these changes?

[edit on 3-3-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Lets get rid of all teachers who stimulate critical thought. Imagine a whole society of open minded critical thinkers. Jesus Christ are we trying to be a democracy or something?

Anyone who can agree with this does not have a child. There is no way. I read the entire description of the "world geography' class, and NO WHERE does it mention politics. It states they may cover cultural differences, or regional differences, but no where is there anything that states Political opinion.

Again, this is a rant that this guy needs to use when he is among his peers. I believe more than likely none of his peers pay him any attention, so he uses his own 'captive audience' for his own ego stroke. He should be talking about the genocide in Bosnia or how hard it is to live in bolivia and not be involved in drugs. Those are worldly issues that affect the Worlds geography.

This teacher needs to grow up more than the kids do.

Think of it this way. What is a parent of a friend of your child constantly denounced or put down your religion when you son was around, or talked ultra left or ultra right politics? Would this upset you or not?

This is what after school clubs are for.

[edit on 3-3-2006 by esdad71]

[edit on 3-3-2006 by esdad71]

The more I read and see about this, the more I support the teacher. He's filing a lawsuit.

What bothers me is that we only hear 20 minutes of his talk on the morning after the president's SotU address and by that, it's being determined that:

A. He does this all the time.
B. He didn't present both sides.

Why didn't the kid tape the whole class? Why didn't he tape on other days? My guess is because this is the one day that Jay Bennish said enough to 'make the appearance' that he's pushing his liberal political agenda on the classroom.

Originally posted by ADHDsux4me
In another Thread I played Devil's Advocate for Pro Bushies, This time for the sake of Devils Advocate for pro-Not Bushie.

There is no Leftist Main stream Television media anymore (John Stewart the only), so I think maybe the teacher was trying to reach these kids by talking to them directly.
Turn on any major news station, and the pro-bushie lemmings groom their audience to love bushie.

Where else do our next generations have to turn to for ideals, but school?
Television is no good, it's all either a Dog and Pony show, similar to Keeping the masses stupidly entertained while Rome is in shambles, or it's hardcore 1 sided political views with 1 token democrat who gets ridiculed for "being outside the box"?

The major influence comes from their family, of course, but outside that, kids need role models. They also need someone to listen to them as they try to express their often conflicting thoughts and views on things. Unfortunately, most kids turn only to entertainers (rock stars and athletes) as role models.

This teacher spoke out against the war in Iraq, among other things. There may have been students in class with loved ones serving over there. Did the teacher take their feelings into account? No, so he failed in his role as a mentor.

Btw, I find your willingness to take a "pro" then a "con" view on topics very encouraging. It shows that you are willing to listen to all sides of an issue before you make up your mind.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Why didn't the kid tape the whole class? Why didn't he tape on other days? My guess is because this is the one day that Jay Bennish said enough to 'make the appearance' that he's pushing his liberal political agenda on the classroom.

So, the kid is psychic and able to predict the exact day this teacher decides to rant? The kid regulary used taped lectures to assist him in his studies.

Once again, I see an attempt to cast aspersions on the student's motives instead of addressing the actions of the teacher.:shk:

This was not the first time a student has complained about this particular teacher. Do we see a pattern emerging here?

[edit on 3-3-2006 by jsobecky]

[edit on 3-3-2006 by jsobecky]