A good handgun for home defense?

Originally posted by DeusEx
The P99 may be all fancy, but 9mm? Cut me some slack. I was never a 9mm apologist, myself. The pistol that's caught my eye lately is the FNP in .40SW. I mean...no such thing as a poorly-made FN Herstal weapon.

DE

Horses for courses mate. Been carrying a 9 milly for quite a few years now, as have most of my work-mates. Always did what was asked of it assuming I did my part. Still, if you don't trust your skills with a sleek and accurate round like the 9mm, then the .40 P99 will have to do I suppose

Sleek my ass. Accurate, yes. Underpowered? Definitely.

It's not that I don't trust my skills, Paddy. I trust them enough to get me through the day. It's the human body I don't trust. Fight or flight reaction saps you. You get the auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, screwed up fine-motor skills (trigger control, anyone?) and a bunch of other less serious fun effects. training can bypass some of that, but experience is better. Most people (myself included, I suppose) don't have that. I have training, yes, but not boots-on-the-ground combat experience.

The 9mm isn't a terrible round, but let's face it. It's underpowered. No ifs, ors or buts. If someone is mad or high enough- and that's an issue on the West Coast in America, and increasingly here in Canada- two to the chest simply won't cut it with a nine, or even a .38. One to the head or groin would, but what are the chances of that when you've got the fight or flight going, and it's a moving target?

Factoring that in, I know that if I put enough high-caliber rounds downrange into the attacker, he'll stop. Or he'll be slurry. Quite possibly both. That's why I put faith in rounds like .357 (as stated before, the golden standard) , .40SW and .45ACP. Now that I've given you reasons, a trip to teh lighter side:



Cheers, Paddy.

DE

FYI 9mm Para is more powerful than usual .38 spec rounds... and .45 isn't going to do any good against Amfetamine user, unless you hit a bone or heart (9mm will allso do the trick)

I know a situation where a man high on amf didn't stop even after 3 7.62x39s to the chest... only thing that took him down was 00 buck to the face... so your claims that .45 will allways stop a man is ridicuous...

Or do you claim that .45ACP is more effective than 7.62x39?

Originally posted by northwolf
FYI 9mm Para is more powerful than usual .38 spec rounds... and .45 isn't going to do any good against Amfetamine user, unless you hit a bone or heart (9mm will allso do the trick)

9mm is more powerful than most .38s, yes, true, but there are heavy-grain and +P rounds that have a nice kick. But in context, the most commonly reccomended handgun for self defence is a .357 revolver, which may be loaded with .38s. Also, for YOUR information, even if you hit the heart, the bastard as a good fifteen seconds to screw your day up. That's why they say to the chest, one to the head or groin. The hope is for a spinal hit, a brain hit, or a pelvic hit, all of which and guaranteed to stop your attacker should your roudn ahve enough power. Emptying 6 or eight rounds of .357 or .45 into a man seems like an excellent comprimise, though. If THAT doesn't stop him, it's not like 9mm would have been much better.

I know a situation where a man high on amf didn't stop even after 3 7.62x39s to the chest... only thing that took him down was 00 buck to the face... so your claims that .45 will allways stop a man is ridicuous...

Or do you claim that .45ACP is more effective than 7.62x39?

I'm sorry, I don't see where I claimed such a thing. My exact words were 'if I put enough .45s downrange, I know that will stop him.' At no point did I ever compare handgun rounds to rifle rounds. I do however stand by my statement that in self-defence situations, I believe higher-caliber ordnance to be better. Calm it down a notch.

DE

DE sorry if i sounded too harsh on that, but i'm still saying 9mm will do the job...

And all i was saying with the example is that no round is fool proof in self defence...

And .357 Revolver is the best probably the best choise for 24/7 loaded gun, but 9mm auto will stop anyone coming on to you just as well as .45...

optimal round would be in the lines of .380 Super... Large mag + good operation of self loaders + power of .357

but it's just my opinion
Peace

Originally posted by northwolf
DE sorry if i sounded too harsh on that, but i'm still saying 9mm will do the job...

And all i was saying with the example is that no round is fool proof in self defence...

And .357 Revolver is the best probably the best choise for 24/7 loaded gun, but 9mm auto will stop anyone coming on to you just as well as .45...

optimal round would be in the lines of .380 Super... Large mag + good operation of self loaders + power of .357

but it's just my opinion
Peace

Err... .38 Super Auto, or .380?

world.guns.ru...

In either case, behold the chart. .357 Magnum is still marginally more powerful than the most powerful of the two, and about on-par with a .40SW in every respect. Definitely a step up from the 9mm, though.

DE

.38 super auto = .380 Super = .38 super, at least around here and it can be loaded safely 400+m/s...
But anyway, it beats .357 in semiauto use since it's a straight cased round not rimmed...

But do we agree that for average joe .357 revolver is the way to go, but anything up from .38spec/9mm para will be adequate?
and a Shotgun is the safest home defender...


Slightly off topic
I've been toying with idea of fitting a sabotted 6.5mm (5.56) bullet to .38 super auto case, in a carbine you could use a .38 bulletted rounds in CQB and 6.5mm for longer 50-200m ranges... any comments?

[edit on 12-4-2006 by northwolf]

I concur about the .357 and shotgun... best of the best. My personal preference is for heavier rounds, but that's just me.

As for your idea, 5.56 mm is junk. I haven't heard much about the 6.5mm, I thought it was just under development at the moment. The ideal would be to have a single round that's good up close, and still accurate at range. To me, that's still our old friend the 7.62mm. It may kick like a mule, but it puts holes in things and has range.

DE

I train, train and train some more. That's why I know that when I fire my pistol, the rounds will go where I want them to. I can fire rapidly and accurately on instinct. If you can't put rounds where you want, then it doesn't matter what round you're firing.

All handgun rounds are comparitively low powered (as opposed to rifle rounds). Accurate shot placement is the only sure fire way of stopping a target, no matter what calibre you use. I know that I can do this with a 9mm. I also know that I will be able to consistently and rapidly put rounds on target with a 9mm, more so than with a .45ACP. Accurate shot placement with a 9mm (or .45ACP) will kill, stopping a target. Inaccurate shot placement with a 9mm (or.45ACP) will not.

I find that too many poor shooters try to compensate for their lack of skill with bigger bullets. If that makes them feel more confident then so be it. I'll be sticking with my P5C thanks.

[edit on 13-4-2006 by PaddyInf]

I hate reading about all sorts of people shooting and carrying while I can not even afford the cheapest gun out there, I hate living in poverty...

I get hospital bills that are 300 bucks, pay all sorts of other bills...

And saving is an impossibility...aparently I have not good enough credit for a credit card either so i'm screwed...

I couldn't even pawn my air rifle which I payed 182 euro's for since no sane pawn shop will take it...and besides, I have a nice crack in the stock...I guess I shouldn't have trusted cheap Gamo crap.

So i'm pretty much stuck in Meth infested Iowa, with only an airgun for protection...

My wife and my inlaws are supporting me buying it but only see it as something I don't NEED while there might definitly BE a need for it in the future...atleast it will guarantee my safety...

I guess there is always 911 I can dial...while I pray they come fast and are in the neighborhood...atleast they have guns...*sighs*

I do often wonder about the American pre-occupation with size. Wonder what Froid (sp) would have made of it?

Originally posted by DeusEx
In either case, behold the chart. .357 Magnum is still marginally more powerful than the most powerful of the two, and about on-par with a .40SW in every respect. Definitely a step up from the 9mm, though.

DE

Just had a look at that chart. Interesting reading.

I personally liked the data on the 14.9 gramm .45ACP ball (FMJ) - 494J, As opposed to the 9mm ball - 543J.

Indeed according to your table, like for like the 9mm has a higher muzzle energy than the .45ACP every time.

Either your data is wrong, or you have just validated the argument in favour of the 9mm versus the .45.

Cheers

[edit on 14-4-2006 by PaddyInf]

-----> Sig Sauer P220

Originally posted by PaddyInf
Just had a look at that chart. Interesting reading.

I personally liked the data on the 14.9 gramm .45ACP ball (FMJ) - 494J, As opposed to the 9mm ball - 543J.

Indeed according to your table, like for like the 9mm has a higher muzzle energy than the .45ACP every time.

There's more to ballistics than muzzle energy, Paddy. Nice try, though. The .45 ball is also double the size of the 9mm. Even if the energy of the round as it exits the muzzle is less, the impact consequently has more energy.

You get an A for effort though.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx

There's more to ballistics than muzzle energy, Paddy. Nice try, though. The .45 ball is also double the size of the 9mm. Even if the energy of the round as it exits the muzzle is less, the impact consequently has more energy.

You get an A for effort though.

DE

Precisley. That is the very point that I was trying to make.

In either case, behold the chart. .357 Magnum is still marginally more powerful than the most powerful of the two, and about on-par with a .40SW in every respect. Definitely a step up from the 9mm, though

Comparing rounds using your table is completely invalid for the purposes of this thread for the very reasons that you cite above.

Thanks for making my point for me

[edit on 15-4-2006 by PaddyInf]

OK, forget everything anyone has taught you about home defense guns.

Then, do not even consider hollowpoints, because they almost never expand, and who cares about bullets going through walls, normal pistol bullets don't go through the outside walls anyway, and trust me, you want to hit with as much as you can, as fast as you can, and as ruthlessly as you can.

Have you considered a recoil-dampened semiautomatic 12-gauge magnum shotgun? Try it, and then decide not to buy a pistol. Get a Benelli (made by Beretta company.) They can have a recoil-dampening system installed in the stock, plus they're damn good.
Buy "number 3" magnum lead shotshells, keep the magazine full, and if you need to use it, just pull the "cocking"-lever back and let it fly forwards, and you're ready to go. NO shotgun ammo goes through walls, well not #3 at least. Get a red dot sight, or open steel ghost-ring sights. If someone breaks in, just shoot first and think afterwards. But be sure that it's not someone in your family sleepwalking or something. The important thing is getting the shot off, with the most possibility of hitting the target.

But, if you want something in the pistol way, buy a glock 17, it NEVER fails, and if it does, it's the primer in the bulet casing that didn't fire. just pull the slide back, and try again. no safetys. 9mm, low recoil. use 125-grain FMJ bullets ONLY.
WARNING: The shotguns and ALL OTHER BRANDS of pistols, have safetys. remember, safetys kill. safetys kill. Never use safetys (unless you're on a special operation mission hehehehe.)

Safetys turn on when you need them off, at ALL times. limit Murphys chances to influence your life or death desicions at all costs.

Hollow point rounds expand every time you hiy soft tissue, that's 100% fact, and safety devices like the one in my CZ-75 don't just go on when they want...

G17 is a good gun, but about 20 other "modern" service guns are just as good, as long as the user is familiar with his gun (ie. Glocks just don't fit my hand but Steyr or CZ is like a glove )


BTW if you're opsessed with safetys being all evill, ebery gunsmith can remove them from your gun


[edit on 16-4-2006 by northwolf]

12 gauge shotgun with 00 or 000 buck. may i suggest the remington 270??? although i like anything with the name mossberg or benelli... buy a handgun for carry around , personal defense, and go with the .357. use hydrashock rounds or at least hollowpoints. do not use apistol for home defense. definitely go with the shotgun...

Well, whoever told you that hollowpoints never expand is ill-informed, they are very effective man stoppers, for some reason they are banned for general use in combat...they are that bad...

Hydrashok and Speer Gold Dot seem to be both highly apraised, shotguns are THE weapon of choice generally but a pistol might be better in smaller apartments since they have less size and weight...but a 12ga will stop the toughest in their tracks.

Well, I haven't used HP ammo EVER, and for some good reasons called "tried and tested". If you hit a less favorable place than soft unprotected tissue, heavy clothing/etc., don't you think is gonna stuff up the HP and make it into a 9mm 75 grain projectile?

Even the people who shot at this one guy here in the 80's... they used 357 magnum revolver with some sort of hollowpoint or semi-wadcutter, and his WINTER COAT stopped at least one of the bullets!

Besides, if your opponent is wearing a VEST, the expansion is your DOOM.


And you guy who said that all guns can have the safetys removed: They probably can, BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT, since Glock has buildt-in safetys which will not switch on when they graze your clothing while you pull the gun out of the holster or something like that! And a semiautomatic pistol without ANY safetys is just plain dangerous.