1.300 Iraqis Killed in Past Week

There is a 'civil war' that has been going on for 1400 years 'junior', go do your homework. We are in the middle of a conflict that was there before us, and will be there when we are gone. Shia on Sunni or Sunni on Shia violence is nothing new. There is just more modern western media over there to report it.

Folks, There was rioting in the streets over a cartoon, do you not think that 100,000 dead would spark a movement? This is common sense. Even if it did not make it on FoxNews, it would be on the internet.

Also, 1300 dead from ethnic fighting in the last week would not be to much of a strech given the current state of affairs. tell me again how Bush can be blamed for this?

Yeah, I am well aware that it was not Disney Land prior to our little party over there. I am also aware that we are only stirring the pot with our further involvement. This # doesnt concern us. We arent liberating anyone. If we arent there to "steal oil", or build permanent bases, or install a puppet gov't, then why stay? Do you honestly believe we can curb this violence and bring order? Do you honestly believe we should, or that it is our place to?

And you are allowed to call me "Junior," as I am sure it is true in your case.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
"junior?"

You've only been here for 2 months.
Junior - time in grade.

you are the one with your head in the sand playing ostrich.

Yeah right. You still aren't reading my posts.

I said that we needed to give the press some time
to report this before we went off and said it was being
'hidden on purpose' ... how exactly is that playing ostrich?
hmmmm?

It's common sense. The Post reported it and it makes sense
to give the wires some time to pick it up. And I was right ...
THEY DID.

I also said that I checked on the author of the report.
That author shows no bias I said. So how is that playing
ostrich? hmmmm?

And how is backing Souljah's statement even further by saying
that the figures are 1/5 or 1/6 less ... how is backing his/her
statement EVEN MORE playing ostrich? hmmm


And I stand by my statement. Iraq is not in a full fledged civil war.
It is an uptick in violence. If it were a full civil war, there would be
many more dead and much more violence. This could be the start
of one. But it isn't one yet.

Only time will tell. That's not being an ostrich.
That's giving the situation time to see what happens.



[edit on 3/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by esdad71
We are in the middle of a conflict that was there
before us, and will be there when we are gone.

Most likely.

Frankly, I'm at the point that I don't want to see any more
aid going over there. I don't want us to help anyone anymore.
We get blamed if we do help, and we get blamed if we don't help.

Let 'the religion of peace' go at it and we can see what's
left after they bash it out with each other. I'm fed up with 'em all.

Originally posted by esdad71
There was rioting in the streets over a cartoon ...
would spark a movement ... This is common sense.

You have voted esdad71 for the Way Above Top Secret award.
You have two more votes this month.

Ahhhhh .. you said common sense. Something that is sorely
lacking when it comes to anything in middle east discussions.

Originally posted by esdad71
There is a 'civil war' that has been going on for 1400 years 'junior', go do your homework. We are in the middle of a conflict that was there before us, and will be there when we are gone. Shia on Sunni or Sunni on Shia violence is nothing new. There is just more modern western media over there to report it.

Care to remember, how the US influence on Iraq in the 70s and 80s HELPED to bring the balance of power to Sunni side, when they supported Saddam so that they could stop the Islamic Revolution in Iran?

Ofcourse those Historical FACTS you quickly ignore. Shia, Sunni and Kurds in Iraq have been nothing but Pawns on the table for any foreign superpower, that wanted to increase influence in this Region.

Tribal War - what better way to help destabilize a region, then to support one side and demonize the other side. The Empire has done that alot of times, since the Roman times. It is nothing NEW in this way of speaking.

For hundreds of year an averege American (or Westerner) could not give a Damn about what Sunnis and Shia's are doing in Iraq - but today things are a little bit different.

How exactly is the US going to establish Democracy in this Region is really a very interesting question, since they are caught amidst a Tribal War.

But they I ask myself - maybe that was the Plan?

Since Iraq looks like an averege African country, caught in the middle of a bloody Civil War, while the western corporate interests are pumping away their resouces.

Again the most important question of all:

WHO BENEFITS?

People of Iraq certainly do not!

Originally posted by DaFunk13
If we arent there to "steal oil"

Even Bill Clinton has said publically that this is NOT the case.
If we wanted to 'steal oil' we would have kept Kuwait when we liberated
it. If we wanted to 'steal oil' we would just go down to Venezuela and
take over. It's closer and easier and has much less international
implications.

or build permanent bases

Do we have any permanent bases in Iraq? There was a recent report
about permanent buildings that are being used in the temporary bases
set up in the country. But no permanent bases have been established
or purposed by our government.

or install a puppet gov't,

The Iraqi people freely elected their government.
They did so for the first time in ~ 40 years.

then why stay?

Because the idiot insurgents keep killing civilians and blowing up
the infrastructure. They claim they are trying to get us to leave,
but all the morons are doing is making us stay longer.

We don't want to be there. It costs American lives and tons of
American money. The sooner the Iraqis get a hold of their new
free country, the sooner we can get the heck out.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Let 'the religion of peace' go at it and we can see what's
left after they bash it out with each other. I'm fed up with 'em all.

AGREED! And I didnt mean playin ostrich in this particular situation. I ment overall. You seem to be a war supporter, correct? IMO, anyone who still thinks this war was a good idea, or continues to think it is a good idea, is ignoring facts....ie... in the sand. However, you seem to be a bit more rational than I thought, so I retract that statement. I admit, I wasnt reading all the threads here, but I do understand what you are saying.

I agree that we should pull out, cut aid, and cross our fingers that Iran doesnt come in to play clean-up. If we were really trying to make life better for these people we need to admit that we have done almost the opposite, and bow out. Let them blow each other up.

I am sure that if these people truely want peace (which I doubt) they will calm down when we are gone and pull a nation together. Again, I doubt it, but how many american lives must be sacrificed? How much worse can our world image get? When will we decide that it is not our place to police the planet?

Originally posted by Souljah
WHO BENEFITS? People of Iraq certainly do not!

Who benefits from what?

Those who benefit from a free and peaceful Iraq are the
Iraqis and the PEOPLE of Iran. Those that benefit from
a free and peaceful Iraq are all Western countries as
well as Israel which now no longer has to put up with
Saddam paying Palestinian homicide bombers to murder
them. A free and peaceful Iraq benefits humanity -
physically and spiritually. Metaphysics are hard to measure.

Those who would benefit from a civil war in Iraq are
those in charge of Iran. They don't want to have a
free Iraq on one side and a free Afghanistan on the
other. The Syrian gov't also benefits from a civil war
in Iraq. They can get their illegal oil flowing in again, and
they don't have to worry about a free Iraq instigating
freedoms in Syria's citizens. Civil War in IRaq also
benefits those corporations and governments that
did business in Iraq with Saddam. Civil War covers
illegal tracks. French leaders and corporations,
some other corporations throughout the world,
and George Halloway in England would also most likely
benefit from Civil War in Iraq.

I know we arent stealing oil. We could have dont that in South America...its closer. Thats why I put it in quotations; Its everyone elses view.

We havent built bases because they would only be blown up. Do you honestly think "they" dont want to?

And on the "freely elected gov't"...we see how this is going. I vote, but it doesnt mean I honestly think it matters. It just makes me feel better knowing I did what I can. All those purple fingers mean jack when they continue to blow each other up, and take shots at their own armed forces. Just as our votes here mean jack when we have faulty voting machines and lots of currupt shannanigans in OH, FL, and wherever else. They voted because they have little choice. It is the only way an Iraqi can feel like they have any say at all in their gov't.

I will be on your side when the glorious Iraqi gov't takes the reins and joins decent society. So long as they continue like they have....we have chaos. You can paint it pink and wrap it in a bow, but its still chaos.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Let them blow each other up.

:
I'm at that point.

I KNOW it's not the right thing to think. I KNOW that I'm supposed
to still care about the folks who are stuck in that area and who
need help. I KNOW I'm supposed to care about the orphans
and the children ... I STILL DO ... but I'm too tired of it all.

I'm just tired of it. Damned if we help and damned if we don't.
I don't care anymore. Let 'em destroy each other.

Its all overwhelming me as well.

I apologize for the previous animosity.

Can't we all agree that this is a mistake? I want to help the disadvantaged as much as anyone, but are we really helping anymore?

Originally posted by DaFunk13
when the glorious Iraqi gov't takes the reins and joins decent society.

Define 'decent society'. I'm so jaded that at this point
that I know decent society exhists but I highly doubt
that honest government exhists anywhere.

So long as they continue like they have....we have chaos.

Yep. I'm with you 1000% on this.

You can paint it pink and wrap it in a bow, but its still chaos.

Isn't that what everyone does in the news, in government, in religion??
They all wrap up the lies in so many layers of pretty deceit that the
truth can't be found. It's rather disheartening. No wonder I'm so
cynical ... after so many years on this planet having to put up with
lies everywhere I no longer believe anything . Sad, isn't it. I'm
sure that's not how life was ment to be. Oh well ...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Those who benefit from a free and peaceful Iraq are the
Iraqis and the PEOPLE of Iran. Those that benefit from
a free and peaceful Iraq are all Western countries as
well as Israel which now no longer has to put up with
Saddam paying Palestinian homicide bombers to murder
them. A free and peaceful Iraq benefits humanity -
physically and spiritually. Metaphysics are hard to measure.

Well, the Iraqis are enjoying a VIRTUAL Freedom and Democracy, that is presented by the US Pentagon sponsored Corporate media. Democracy has a very bloody face in Iraq, if you did not notice. So, I think that people of Iraq are not really Benefiting from this "Operation Iraqi Oil Liberation".

But you were right with putting Isreal into this. They never did like Saddam and Saddam never did like the Isrealis. And to correct you - Saddam did NOT pay suicide bombers: he gave the money to the Families of the deceased.

That is a BIG Difference.

Those who would benefit from a civil war in Iraq are
those in charge of Iran. They don't want to have a
free Iraq on one side and a free Afghanistan on the
other. The Syrian gov't also benefits from a civil war
in Iraq. They can get their illegal oil flowing in again, and
they don't have to worry about a free Iraq instigating
freedoms in Syria's citizens. Civil War in IRaq also
benefits those corporations and governments that
did business in Iraq with Saddam. Civil War covers
illegal tracks. French leaders and corporations,
some other corporations throughout the world,
and George Halloway in England would also most likely
benefit from Civil War in Iraq.

Again you are putting the Blame on your own and your goverments Usual Suspects - which was exactly as I suspected: Iran, Syria - then ofcourse France and lets not forget to mention George GALLOWAY; hey you skipped United Nations and mister Kofi Annan! How come?

But the ONLY thing you missed, is that NONE of these Usual Susects has BIG BAD Business Deals going on right as we speak, which are closel connected to Iraq and Middle East.

Actually, it looks like nobody wants a Free Iraq - but the people of Iraq.

Well at least some of them.

Everybody else is just Fine with the Way it is now.

Few bombs go off from time to time, a 1.300 people die a Week - so WHAT!

As long as Iraqi Oil Market is FREE.

If anything goes wrong - we will blame it on the Usual Suspects.

That's why they are for, right?

Originally posted by Souljah
Democracy has a very bloody face in Iraq

Freedom isn't ever free. It isn't a pretty birth.
And it is never instant. It takes time. America
had it's revolution for 7 years.

Saddam did NOT pay suicide bombers:
he gave the money to the Families of the deceased.

Which the murderers knew would be coming, so this inspired
them to kill ... knowing that their families would have the money.

That is a BIG Difference.

Not really. The bombers knew the money would come
in to their families if they murdered. They were getting
paid for their evil deeds. The payment went to the
families.

you skipped United Nations and mister Kofi Annan! How come?

I have a BIG headache and forgot. Thank you for reminding me.
Yes, many of the members of the security council and Kofi Annan
would definately have benefited from Saddam's continued reign
of terror.

NONE of these Usual Susects has BIG BAD
Business Deals going on right as we speak,

Because we are all over Iraq like ants at a picnic.
They can't do business as usual because we have put
their illegal business partners out of business.
However, their footprints are still in Iraq and that's what
they are afraid of. That we will uncover them.

it looks like nobody wants a Free Iraq - but the people of Iraq.

The people of America want a free Iraq so we can get the heck
out of there. The young people of Iran want a free Iraq ... they
want a free Iran too. The people of the world want a free Iraq,
but the governments of Syria and Iran do not. It frightens them.
Those at the top in the big business' that were doing illegal
activities in Iraq do not want a free Iraq. They are afraid of what
will be uncovered. And then there are those anti-Americans who
don't want Iraq free because they just want to see America fail,
even if that means the world will be worse for it.

Looks like most everyone wants a free Iraq ... except for a
select few already mentioned ... but no one wants to pay the
price for that freedom. It's a freedom that will be good for
the world. But it comes with a heavy price tag. (and I'm
just about tapped out)



[edit on 3/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Can't we all agree that this is a mistake?

Liberating Iraq was not a mistake. How it was executed
has been. Frankly - I don't want to liberate anyone else.
It's the wrong thing to say, but I'm too tired of all this to
want to help anyone for a very long time. All IMHO

are we really helping anymore?

A free Iraq helps everyone except the bad guys.

To tap your question further ... How can we insure that
freedom holds and that the people are SAFE?
They aren't safe at this point. Not at all. Gotta' get the
Iraqis to take charge of their future. When they braved
the terrorists to vote ... that was amazing. A lot of
Americans wouldn't have done that. I was in awe.
They need to use this determination and fight for their
own safety and freedom. Some of this is up to them now.

MORE QUESTIONS -

How to get the insurgents, who claim to want us to leave,
to quit what they are doing so we actually can leave.
My answer - I don't know. Obviously no one knows how
or it would happen.

Once Iraq is on it's own, can the government hold?
My answer - only time will tell.

Kurdish autonomy?
My answer - They deserve it. Which takes us to Turkey ....

Which takes me back to ... I don't care anymore.
Once we stabilize in Iraq and leave we should
leave 'em all to stew in their own juices.




[edit on 3/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

[edit on 3/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by DaFunk13
I know we arent stealing oil. So long as they continue like they
have....we have chaos. You can paint it pink and wrap it in
a bow, but its still chaos.

You have voted DaFunk13 for the Way Above Top Secret award.
You have one more vote left for this month.

AND ... I'm voting ya' a Way Above. Partly because I fully agree
with ya' on these ... and partly because we seemed to be so
far apart at the start of this thread and after CALM discussion
we have discovered that we are actually not really as at odds
as we thought. That process deserves a Way Above vote.

Originally posted by Souljah

Care to remember, how the US influence on Iraq in the 70s and 80s HELPED to bring the balance of power to Sunni side, when they supported Saddam so that they could stop the Islamic Revolution in Iran?

I would think this would be because of Shia Iran and we took the lesser of 2 evils. Should we have stepped back and let them kill each other on a grander scal than they did? Saddam betrayed the trust of the US, and he paid for it eventually. This was 30 years ago though....

Ofcourse those Historical FACTS you quickly ignore. Shia, Sunni and Kurds in Iraq have been nothing but Pawns on the table for any foreign superpower, that wanted to increase influence in this Region.

Tribal War - what better way to help destabilize a region, then to support one side and demonize the other side. The Empire has done that alot of times, since the Roman times. It is nothing NEW in this way of speaking.

For hundreds of year an averege American (or Westerner) could not give a Damn about what Sunnis and Shia's are doing in Iraq - but today things are a little bit different.

that is an opinion with no factual basis. However, I know that my great grandfather did business overseas in that region during the 30's through the 70's. He had many pictures and some beautiful art and articfacts he bought back. Stories of the palaces and the people he met.

How exactly is the US going to establish Democracy in this Region is really a very interesting question, since they are caught amidst a Tribal War.

But they I ask myself - maybe that was the Plan?

Since Iraq looks like an averege African country, caught in the middle of a bloody Civil War, while the western corporate interests are pumping away their resouces.

Again the most important question of all:

WHO BENEFITS?

People of Iraq certainly do not!

Remove Saddam, and attempting to allow the citizens of Iraq to form a government. Problem is, Al-qeada and other fighters from Syria, Palestine and even coutries such as Britan and even the US are now in Iraq using it as a platform to battle the US. This reminds me more of Afghanistan than Vietnam as far as the fighting. Add to this the century old Shia/Sunni Struggle, and you have a very volatile mixture. The US wanted Iraq as a staging area for Iran and Syria, and that is not happeneing. There is no reason or need for the US to destabilize Iraq. It makes no military sense at all.


but remember,

Iran however benefits from this, as it draws attention away from their situation. It is a stalemate folks, as if Isreal moves, they are removed by the weapons that we know Iran has, as well as US bases in Iraq because Iran would not care. Then why wouldn't Iran then go into Iraq for it's oil? Backed by Russia and China...would would happen then....The US can't nuke anyone and the stalemate continues...

[edit on 1-3-2006 by esdad71]

ditto.

You have voted FlyersFan for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Freedom isn't ever free. It isn't a pretty birth.
And it is never instant. It takes time. America
had it's revolution for 7 years.

Exactly. Freedom is not Free. Great choice of Words! The problem is, that Freedom today has arised to the level of a Commodity - since only if you DESERVE, or if you can AFFORD Freedom(tm) you will then "Receive" it. The people of Iraq CAN Afford it, since they have Vast reserves of Oil. People of Congo for example, can Not.

Which the murderers knew would be coming, so this inspired
them to kill ... knowing that their families would have the money.

Excuse me, but the "murderers" did not know that Saddam would give money to them. That happened right after the Intifada, and the cheques went to the Families of the suicide bombers and intifada victims. These people were not motivated by Money - they were motivated by something else.

Anyway, if you did not know -
Saddam funds FAILED to buy Gaza hearts.

I have a BIG headache and forgot. Thank you for reminding me.

You're Welcome!

Because we are all over Iraq like ants at a picnic.
They can't do business as usual because we have put
their illegal business partners out of business.
However, their footprints are still in Iraq and that's what
they are afraid of. That we will uncover them.

If you Wish to Uncover the Shady Deals with Iraq - Warprfiteers dot com.

The people of America want a free Iraq so we can get the heck
out of there. The young people of Iran want a free Iraq ... they
want a free Iran too. The people of the world want a free Iraq,
but the governments of Syria and Iran do not. It frightens them.
Those at the top in the big business' that were doing illegal
activities in Iraq do not want a free Iraq. They are afraid of what
will be uncovered. And then there are those anti-Americans who
don't want Iraq free because they just want to see America fail,
even if that means the world will be worse for it.

Actually other members here on ATS (and me), have prooved numerous times, that it was not about bringing Freedom of Iraqi people. That had really nothing to do with it - actually it had nothing to do with the Actual Intentions for Liberating Iraq; for, the actual Reasons were of a totally different nature.

I know you have heard it around - Petro-Dollar Politics ring a bell?

Well, I know it is hard to accept such a Looney Consipracy - but still, I find it much closer to the ACTUAL REASONS for war, and not the Freedom of Iraqi people, since they are not more free or more safe or more democratic then before. Well maybe they are on the Big 40" screens across the Atlantic ocean, but the Raw Reality of Life in Iraq has prooven Otherwise.

In short - Saddam started to trade Oil in Euros. Which caused a Giant Fall of USDollar Value in the international markets. And we all know, that Saudi Arabia is in Charge of OPEC, or the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries. And I bet they are most Thankful for the Tight Economic and Diplomatic relations with the US.

And Guess WHAT? Iran is going to switch to Euros in the International Oil Market too! When? In March 2006. Hey, wait a minute, today is March the 1st, isnt it? Well, better hurry then!

Since worldwide oil sales are denominated in U.S. dollars, changes in the value of the dollar against other world currencies affect OPEC's decisions on how much oil to produce. For example, when the dollar falls relative to the other currencies, OPEC-member states receive smaller revenues in other currencies for their oil, causing substantial cuts in their purchasing power, because they continue to sell oil in the U.S. dollar. After the introduction of the euro, Iraq decided it wanted to be paid for its oil in euros instead of US dollars.