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What killed the mammoths, giant sloths, sabretooth tigers, etc.?

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posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 05:07 AM
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I don't buy the accepted version of events resulting in the mass extinctions at the end of the Pleistocene, about 11 500 years ago. To me, there is a better, and more believable explanation. But, I've found many people feel that the scenario is farfetched.
Many authors have written about it, but the best book I've read is:
"Cataclysm! : Compelling Evidence of a Cosmic Catastrophe in 9500 B.C."
by D. S. Allan, J. B. Delair

These authors are quite credible. Here is the brief bio from the back cover.

D.S. Allan, a Cambridge M.A., is a science historian specializing in paleogeography, particularly in the Arctic regions. A science teacher for many years, he is a skilled cartographer and has made a special study of evidence for climatic and landform change in recent geological times. He lives in Basildon, Essex, England.

J.B. Delair, B.Sc., is an Oxford-based geologist with wide international and commercial field experience. An anthropologist, he has a special interest in animal and plant distribution and in tribal traditions. He is the Museum Curator of Geology at University of Southampton, England.

So, what do you think? Has anyone else read this book? The data gathered and analyzed is extensive, and the conclusions reasonable, imo. If they are correct, though, it totally refutes the current 'ice age' theory.




posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 05:29 AM
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I haven't read the book, but how does it explain the lack of megafaunal extinctions in Africa and Asia at that time?

And what's the significance of the 11.5kya date? Presumably their contention involves a different explanation for the ending of the Younger Dryas? But what of the previous extreme fluctuations in climate? It may have the most extreme, but it was neither the first nor the last. And there's no paleontological evidence for any increase in death rates for mega fauna around that date, beyond what might be expected as a result of bigger than normal regional floods as the ice sheets melted.

(yeah, I know, I really should find a copy of the book to read myself before I debunk it
)



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 05:30 AM
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Could you tell us about their theories?

I haven't read the book but I'd like to know what it's all about.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 05:40 AM
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personly i aggre with you . people Just love to make the outrages clame that man kill off simlyadone . Can you immange ? The only Cat known to acctivly hunt Elephents . This was because they were larger then a lion and of corse had thous pearly whites.Through in 20 swichblade nifes and you have one of the badest killing mechines ever . Now take a guy give him a pointed stick .OOO what the hay take 20 guys with pointed sticks .
Ide still put my money on the cat lol.
Becides we do have Rock hard evedence some sort of cataclysm.
and thats the Frozen Soled mamaths they find .
as a matter of fact these elephents froze so FAST the flowers in there stomics were preserved . Most people dont relize just how long it would take to freaz an animal this size at normal temps.
lets say it was -20% at the time .it still would have taken a WEEK to freaz in the mean wile decompasion will have gotton ride of the flowers pluse the meat its self would start going bad .
so in order to preserve the flowers in the animals stumic the animal would have to freaz solid in less then an HOUR tops . so were talking -100 to -150 range here . and the FACT the animal had flowers in its stumic showes the weather HAD to be more then 40% for and extended time .
so what cause such a sudden drop in temp? and the areas that this happened in remained frozen wast land right up untill today .
Siberia and parts of alaska.
anyway I would just love to know what happened on Such a scale that it changed the worlds climet in just a few short hours.
Ps I do have a theory that is the most likly .



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 05:42 AM
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According to the review at Amazon.co.uk:-


Carefully gathered evidence from many disciplines tell of a cataclysm which nearly destroyed Earth and Mars about 11,500 years ago. Ancient oral traditions from scores of cultures describe how a golden age disappeared with appalling devastation, which is supported by archaeological, botanical, astronomical and geological evidence. The findings have some relevance for present world changes.


Which does beg the question why the Younger Dryas cold/arid period - which came to an end around 11,500 years ago, shouwl have been deemed a 'golden age' - compared with the much milder and hospitable conditions that followed....

(If there was a 'golden age' it was more likely during the Holocene Climatic Optimum - around 10,000 to 6,000 years ago)



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 05:46 AM
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Originally posted by Simcity4Rushour

Becides we do have Rock hard evedence some sort of cataclysm.
and thats the Frozen Soled mamaths they find .
as a matter of fact these elephents froze so FAST the flowers in there stomics were preserved . Most people dont relize just how long it would take to freaz an animal this size at normal temps.
lets say it was -20% at the time .it still would have taken a WEEK to freaz in the mean wile decompasion will have gotton ride of the flowers pluse the meat its self would start going bad .
so in order to preserve the flowers in the animals stumic the animal would have to freaz solid in less then an HOUR tops . so were talking -100 to -150 range here . and the FACT the animal had flowers in its stumic showes the weather HAD to be more then 40% for and extended time .
so what cause such a sudden drop in temp? and the areas that this happened in remained frozen wast land right up untill today .


See Mammoth Myths

It's up to you who you choose to believe - those who have reguritated old wifes tales and have done no study of the subject (like Hapgood and Hancock), or those who spend their lives studying mammoth remains (like Dick Mol).



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 06:29 AM
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I haven't read the book either, so perhap's you could post link's or exerpts from the book for us to follow up on. If your not buying into these event's which caused massive extinction's ... well then, your just simply choosing not believe an overwhelming amount of evidence for such thing's. I did find this site discussing it www.knowledge.co.uk... . And all I can say is this is very laughable indeed. It even bring's up the global flood thing, yet there is no evidence for a global flood. This part here "widespread rearrangement of land and sea." That's just the most idiotic thing's I've heard, I'd really appreciate if you could excerpt a few passage's from that book on this particular part.



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by Essan
And what's the significance of the 11.5kya date)

Its too bad no one else so far who has read it has posted. The date is an average taken from C 14 dating of hundreds of items gathered from the same strate level around the world, a strate level which had evidence of fires in every site around the world. It was based totally on scientific principles. Feel free to oppose the Oxford and Cambridge scientists all you like, but without reading the book, it really is meaningless.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 04:29 AM
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Could you please post some exerpt's from the book, name's, a little more to work with so we can look this stuff up abit easier and learn more about it? It's alot better then saying gee it's too bad you guy's didn't read the book.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 09:25 AM
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I think there was some sort of ancient legend about some girl with some stone tablets. A feather appeared out the sky and she ate it, became pregnant. She had to leave the land, and then her goddess quickly froze the land so that it's secrets would be revealed one day. One of those northern latitude kinda legends. I don't think it's a coincidence.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 09:40 AM
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What killed all the megafauna? A little bit of what Simcity4Rushour had to say and something else. The poles got flash frozen, and the same way that we got a nice warm winter over here, and all the cold got dumped onto the other side of the world, that crap happened back in the day too. All the cold got dumped on North America, and the people struggling to survive ate all the big animals. The big predators starved out on their own. It took a little while, but we came out of it.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 10:36 AM
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When it comes to things like Mammoths. saber tooths and the like I tend to sway toward the darwinian thinking a bit.. I have a feeling they did not simply disappear but evolved much like humans have since that time slowly changing certain characteristics to accomodate the changes in the world around them until they became much like the descendants of theirs that we see today.
A natural change.. not a sudden extinction.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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mammoth myths? is it a myth they have been found forzen sold?
and that they froze fast enough to keep the meat its self edable?
The whole they fell into a hole a froze thing doesent hold ICE.
even if they fell into a slushly hole they WOULDNOT freaze fast enough to preserve the flowers . At most it would take 15 minits for the flowers to dissolve .
Theres one and only one way the flowers could have been prserved and thats if the mammoth froze VERY quickly . 30%f wouldent be fast enough at that temp the heat from decompision its self would keep it from freazing.
at 0 % it would take months as the heat from decompision would slow the freazing .
its not untill you hit realy could numbers that decompision is halted.
like I said befor -100 to -160 is the range that would freaze tha animal Fast enough to perserv the flowers.
I have read all the books and In my studys this is the ONLY explanation that fits 100%.
but have mabby even though they just fell into a hole full of permofrost the froze fast enough .
Ps even though at -60% the permofrost itself remains at much higher temps the -60 .



posted on Mar, 3 2006 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by Simcity4Rushour
mammoth myths? is it a myth they have been found forzen sold?


You really should check the link that was given. Yes, the reports aren't... exactly... correct.


and that they froze fast enough to keep the meat its self edable?

It's "sort of" edible. It smells like rotten meat and most humans can't gag down much of it (because the body started to decay or was mummified.) Dogs, however, will eat it without objecting.


The whole they fell into a hole a froze thing doesent hold ICE.


They died in a number of differnent ways. More than that, the reported age of these mammoths shows that none of them died within the same century. The oldest is some 60,000 years old and the youngest is around 12,000 years old (if memory serves) -- other bodies are 35,000 years and so forth. They didn't die in a single catastrophe.

The link given goes into that in great detail.


even if they fell into a slushly hole they WOULDNOT freaze fast enough to preserve the flowers . At most it would take 15 minits for the flowers to dissolve .

That's another myth. Really.


I have read all the books and In my studys this is the ONLY explanation that fits 100%.

I think that your books reported on what they "knew"... I'd bet that you probably haven't read the original reports on those mammoths. I did. There's a lot of misunderstanding about what the scientists reported.



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 08:04 PM
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Stomach contents are not a reliable indicator of freezing, especially in animals which take longer periods of time to digest their food.

The presence of food in the digestive tract can tell you that the animal ate before it died and how long after the meal it died more than anything else.

Digestion is dependent on the release of HCl in the stomach. If an animal dies while eating, before it has begun to produce large quantities of acid, it will not all be broken down.

Consider the length of time it would take vegitation to decompose in a warm, wet climate without appreciable amounts of HCl present: it's a lot longer than 15 minutes, as one of our members speculated earlier.

It also bears mentioning that since HCl is what causes digestion, no amount of cold (well- more accurately no amount which has ever been naturally observed at any location on Earth, or which is known to be possible by any known phenomenon on Earth) would stop digestion, because one would have to lower the temperature below the activation energy for a reaction between hydrogen and an organic compound in order to stop digestion.

There are plenty of better explanations than flash freezing. More to follow- gotta go get dinner.



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 08:58 PM
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Ok, I'm back. Just for the record, if you go to quiznos and it's a skinny blonde, about 20 years old, watch her very closely or she'll only give you mustard on half of you pastrami sub. Great- I'm digressing before I even start.

Anyway, as I said, cold doesn't explain the undigested stomach content. Cold (not even very extreme cold, compared to what is possible on Earth) does explain why decay was arrested however. I learned about that from my Uncle- his father fought at Chosin Reservoir aka "The Frozen Chosin", and knew a lot about what happens to corpses in the cold. (Leave it to the Marines to have all sorts of unwelcome information about such things- Semper Fi)

Now that I'm finished with dinner by the way, I can add another unpleasant piece of evidence about how long partially digested food can endure: Starve yourself for a few days then drink soda until you get gas. I've got 20 bucks that says it will still smell bad. Actually I've heard an unverified factoid that the average person has several pounds of undigested meat in their intestines which just accumulate over the years. Hope you guys aren't planning on having dinner anytime soon- that'll ruin an appetite.

Anyway, here is what happened. The animal died and covered within a period of days, either because of snowfall, because it fell through ice, because it was caught in a river current and deposited in silt, by an avalache, or by some other such means. The partially decayed animal (which would have been about as edible as a raw steak your threw in the garbage 2 days ago- actually a bit less by my guess- but still well within the standards of any dog I've ever owned *hidden benefits to being able to lick your own hindquarters*) was then in an oxygenless environment, killing all of the organisms that had previously been feeding on it. The cold then mummifies it by dehydration and it becomes nature's own brand of popsicle for dogs.


Edit to add: I forgot to remind everyone (although everyone should know if they read the link) all of this stuff is rooted in Charles Hapgood's work.

I used to be a Hapgood believer because I fell for his mis-interpretation of the Piri Reis map. He says the Earth's crust slides over the mantle, so that a given point on Earth can come to rest over the North Pole at any time.

It appears to be true that Einstein corresponded with Hapgood and wrote the foreward to Hapgoods book, but Einstein was dead by the time the book was published (3 years before infact) so there is no saying that Einstein signed off on the finished product or even really knew the full jist of what Hapgood was saying, beyond which, Einstein was a physicist, not a geologist.

Hapgood's theory is shot by volcanic island chains. Unless the Hawaiian islands were all built in the last 11,500 years, Hapgood and his non-sense have no bearing on the Younger Dryas.

[edit on 4-3-2006 by The Vagabond]



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Many authors have written about it,
but the best book I've read is:
"Cataclysm! : Compelling Evidence of a Cosmic Catastrophe in 9500 B.C."
by D. S. Allan, J. B. Delair


If they are correct, though, it totally refutes the current 'ice age' theory.





can't say i've read this product....but like you acknowledge...there's plenty
of other books & material out there.

i would like to see if your leaning towards Solar Activity as the reason/cause of the "cosmic catastrophe"
which is kinda like a underlying precursor for onsets of some ice-ages
One can connect the real or imagined 'dots' if you scan over this site:
www.iceagenow.com...

or perhaps this "cosmic" cycle has a cause thats 26K light-years away out in the Galactic Core:::::
www.soulinvitation.com...
~or else~
www.etheric.com...
www.etheric.com/LaVioletteBooks/ether.html
~which touches upon my personal preferred model,
of the central sun/black hole, that goes whacky and causes 'Sol' to react badly... then causing periods of distress to lifeforms on Earth



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 01:38 AM
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I think it's been pretty well established by dedochronologists that the entire Earth occassionally (and maybe periodically), goes through periods when the global climate experiences some kind of really bad stress. Lots of species die off, the remainder are forced to adapt or die. Sometimes these stress periods aren't so bad, or are so brief that things get back to normal relatively fast, and don't really make much of a dent on the geological record. But some are horrendous and life on Earth only survives because it's so varied that it can survive tucked away in safe little nooks and crannies until it's safe to come out again.

Personally (and I have no data on hand to back it up), I think that every once in a while we pass through a cloud of "mini-comets" or something not generally big enough to do a lot of physical damage, but enough to screw up the atmosphere in some way. We know now that space is not really very empty. It's full of junk, irregularly strewn about.

I don't know why this periodic comet rain would happen. Some people will blame it on Nibiru or Nemesis. A very small brown dwarf companion star to our Sun, that knocks debris out of the Kupier Belt. Maybe it's like those "spokes" in the rings of Saturn, as as we wind our way through our galactic neighborhood, we run through these wave of material. Maybe it's... who knows?

P.S. -- Oh, and along with the rest of the rocky/icy comet junk, we might be doused with a whole strange new batch of interspace bacteria or viruses. That would kill species off just as easy as a big rock dropping on their heads.

[edit on 5-3-2006 by Enkidu]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 02:08 PM
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The way that large ranges of species tend to die off and that climate changes tend to come with extinctions makes me doubt the "andromeda strain" theory, although I am open to the idea that changes in climate could cause different Earth-bound bacteria to find more favorable conditions and become more prevalent, thus adding to the damage of a climate change.

The nice thing about global cataclysms (if there is a "nice thing" about them) is that they're really big, so often there is evidence to be found. A layer of volcanic ash, a layer of irridium, an impact crator, different atmospheric composition in icecores, certain types of animals affected most, etc. From these you can piece together a rough idea of what happened. Milankovich cycles, volcanic activity, asteroid impacts, disease, the multiplication of animals that screw up the food chain, and freak occurances in Earth's complex and imperfectly understood weather system have all had their days for playing hell with life on this planet; some more than others.

I somewhat doubt that there is a brown dwarf hiding in the Kuiper Belt or anywhere nearby, although I concede that since I am not an astrophysicist, I have to base my opinion solely on respect for the ability of those who actually are astrophysicists. That's a lot of gravity and radio signals to just "miss" afterall.



posted on Mar, 8 2006 @ 08:36 PM
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Why do all of the threads dry up right before I post something i'm really proud of?

I know it's tacky, but he who tooteth not his own horn, the same shall not be tooted, right? I mean you've got this big to-do over the mammoths who didn't digest lunch, and the answer is staring us right in the face- its still there because they died and stopped producing stomach acid- not because some kind of cryogenic storm that even hollywood couldn't suspend disbelief on came sweeping over them.



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