did russians go to mars?

Originally posted by apc
... Read the opening question. I'll sum it up for you: Did the Russians secretly go to Mars? Answer: They Couldn't Afford To.

I read everything and i see no reason to change my opinion. They had the money before and after even if i happen to believe they went in the 80's.

Stellar

If they had been successful they would have made sure the world knew about it. Think of the propaganda value. Red Party On Red Planet !! If we do go to Mars it will be an international jaunt and not by one country alone !!

Originally posted by Wirral Bagpuss
If they had been successful they would have made sure the world knew about it.

You do not take over the world by bragging about every advantage you gain. Only the weak have to constantly brag about their strength.

Think of the propaganda value. Red Party On Red Planet !!

If we do go to Mars it will be an international jaunt and not by one country alone !!

Why do you think that one country could not done it alone? The Russians have far more experience in spaceflight then than the rest of the world put together.

Stellar

You do not take over the world by bragging about every advantage you gain.

It would still be impossible to hide the mission.

Russia has superior experience being in space. The US has superior experience getting to space. This may not be the case had the Buran succeeded, but because of... you guessed it... lack of funding... it didn't.

Whenever a Mars mission becomes a reality I do not doubt it will be a coop between Russia and the US. Russia hands down is top dog at shoving people into tin cans, heaving them into orbit, and letting them float around for months on end. They know how to keep people alive in space. The US dominates on transport and entry. We know how to safely get hardware on the surface. The ESA will probably toss in a few nuts and bolts and maybe a nerd or two, too.

Russiya did not go to Mars because they were poor, Communism makes you poor, and they do have the longest times in space, Mir. They do have quite a track record in space but they never went to the Moon they just went up and stayed in Mir.

What would be the point of the russians going to mars and not telling anyone? There would be no point. If its to stake a claim on the planet International law forbids sovereign governments claiming extraterrestrial territory(UN Space Treaty of 1969). And even if that wasn't the case secret claims on territory are illegitimate under previous conventions. So if the Russians did get there it probably wasn't to stake a claim.

But we all know how big the Soviets were into propoganda victories and this would have been their greatest of all. So why keep it secret? None of this makes sense. The fact is that there isn't a chance that the russians got to mars not because it was technologically not possible. But because the didn't rub our faces into the dirt after it was all done.

Originally posted by apc
It would still be impossible to hide the mission.

Why exactly would that be impossible? I have checked it out and apparently it's actually not hard to hide it at all.

Russia has superior experience being in space. The US has superior experience getting to space.

Just not so; do check your facts.

This may not be the case had the Buran succeeded, but because of... you guessed it... lack of funding... it didn't.

Priorities ( funding) changes.

Whenever a Mars mission becomes a reality I do not doubt it will be a coop between Russia and the US. Russia hands down is top dog at shoving people into tin cans, heaving them into orbit, and letting them float around for months on end. They know how to keep people alive in space. The US dominates on transport and entry. We know how to safely get hardware on the surface. The ESA will probably toss in a few nuts and bolts and maybe a nerd or two, too.

Well i am glad your willing to give the Russians SOME credit but i would add that their also better ( more experience ) than the US at "transport and entry".

Stellar

Originally posted by Senor_Vicente
Russiya did not go to Mars because they were poor, Communism makes you poor, and they do have the longest times in space, Mir.

'Communism'( whatever you mean by it) is pretty much what the dictator/people in chage decide it should be and if keeping people alive and well fed is one it can be done. 'Communism no more makes people poor than 'capitalism' makes people rich.

They do have quite a track record in space but they never went to the Moon they just went up and stayed in Mir.

So basically you will believe that they went into space ( seven or more space stations) but they never went anywhere but into orbit. Do you really believe that or did you just not think about the implications of what you are saying?

Stellar

Originally posted by danwild6
What would be the point of the russians going to mars and not telling anyone? There would be no point. If its to stake a claim on the planet International law forbids sovereign governments claiming extraterrestrial territory(UN Space Treaty of 1969).

The point would be that they could gain huge advantage ( defense in depth as they say) even in pure military terms. Do you really believe treaties that STILL can not even keep the USA from invading Iraq would have kept the USSR from going to Mars? Is that really something you want to base your reasoning on ?

And even if that wasn't the case secret claims on territory are illegitimate under previous conventions. So if the Russians did get there it probably wasn't to stake a claim.

They would just go there to do some sigthseeing and check out all the pyramids? Well i guess that makes sense if they want to set up space tourism missions to Mars.

But we all know how big the Soviets were into propoganda victories and this would have been their greatest of all. So why keep it secret?

Because propaganda is good and well when you can not hide something anyways ( sputnik) but is rather different when your going for the high ground in space after EVERYONE who knows anything long ago realised that you are the dominant power in space.

None of this makes sense. The fact is that there isn't a chance that the russians got to mars not because it was technologically not possible. But because the didn't rub our faces into the dirt after it was all done.

Well it frequently find that the ammount of sense something makes to any given person is very much related to their leveo ignorance on given topic or in general. If you want i am willing to help you with a brief history of the Russian and American space programs so that you may judge the situation without the bias so inherent in western media/media in general.

Why you think a state like the USSR would admit to such dominance over the world i really have no idea. You can talk about how strong you are up to a certain point and then all you will achieve is forcing others to realise the danger and unite against you. The US has not realised this yet but their time will come.

Stellar

Originally posted by stuffofnightmares
in threads ive been reading before i heard talk about how russia secretly made it to mars before the usa. is this true? does anyone have any links to share? thanks!

Yes my friend, they did. There is also a secret russian video you can view of them landing on the mars. They see a mole. but how did they get to mars? the answer is simple. Since I know, and most of us know that aliens were working, and by the way they still are, "They worked with russians, and

germans, and US government...they traded technology for abductions and mutilations of cows...they are known as the grays. Well these grays gave the russian military a UFO, and they used it to go to mars....apparently there are also bases on mars. I've been doing a lot of research on this subject. You can view the video here. it's called Alternative 3...take a look at this first.

First watch this video, you have to scroll down the page- www.anomalies.net...

Next read this after watching the video www.abovetopsecret.com...

I do not believe this to be dis-information, or a hoax...

*whitelightwolf*

[edit on 3-3-2006 by Kuffar Rex]

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by apc
It would still be impossible to hide the mission.

Why exactly would that be impossible? I have checked it out and apparently it's actually not hard to hide it at all.


PLEASE ELABORATE.

Originally posted by StellarX
The point would be that they could gain huge advantage ( defense in depth as they say) even in pure military terms. Do you really believe treaties that STILL can not even keep the USA from invading Iraq would have kept the USSR from going to Mars? Is that really something you want to base your reasoning on ?

What advantage? A secret military base that they couldn't comunicate with otherwise it wouldn't be so secret anymore. Whats the purpose of a military base on mars? It serves no purpose. Why? Think about it were do you put your military resources? Why do you put them there? You put your military were their are national interests i.e natural resources, ideological allies. You put your forces their for two reasons to secure the region and its resources for yourself as well as to deny them to your adversary.

A: Persian Gulf- Immense narutal resources of oil and natural gas. Strategically important region.

B- Mars- Geologically dead for billions of years. Six months away it best. No martians to protect or liberate.

As far as Iraq I don't believe their was a treaty preventing our action but that is an entirely different thread.

Originally posted by StellarX
They would just go there to do some sigthseeing and check out all the pyramids? Well i guess that makes sense if they want to set up space tourism missions to Mars.

They would have to go there for one or more of the following reasons.

1- Strategic location: At some point in the future mars may hold some strategic value. Right now it doesn't.

2- Economic possibilties: Mars probably has significant mineral deposits which perhaps in the future will become economically viable.

3- Political possibilties: If another space race heats up the first to land on mars would be the victor.

Originally posted by StellarX
Because propaganda is good and well when you can not hide something anyways ( sputnik) but is rather different when your going for the high ground in space after EVERYONE who knows anything long ago realised that you are the dominant power in space.

I don't think that comment is even in the ball park. Lets say your right and the rooskies got to mars and dominated the surrounding space. So what! We are here on earth and if your talking about the high ground of signifcance it would be the moon wouldn't it. It would take maybe a say or two for a missile that was fired from the moon toreach its target here on earth. It would take a much larger rocket launch from mars to do the same.

Originally posted by StellarX
Well it frequently find that the ammount of sense something makes to any given person is very much related to their leveo ignorance on given topic or in general. If you want i am willing to help you with a brief history of the Russian and American space programs so that you may judge the situation without the bias so inherent in western media/media in general.

I think you misunderstood my post. I said we haven't gone to mars yet not because it wasn't possible but because the politically will wasn't there. And I am quite fimiliar with both the success and failures of the US and Soviet space programs. As well as their current capabilities.

Originally posted by StellarX
Why you think a state like the USSR would admit to such dominance over the world i really have no idea. You can talk about how strong you are up to a certain point and then all you will achieve is forcing others to realise the danger and unite against you. The US has not realised this yet but their time will come.

Well isn't that what happened? The USSR occupied and enslaved eastern europe and central asia and were so nasty that the rest of the world thought the US was the lesser threat. It sounds like someone failed history. The fact is I can't see any reason that the USSR would keep a mars landing quiet it just goes against there entire history.

Originally posted by danwild6
What advantage? A secret military base that they couldn't comunicate with otherwise it wouldn't be so secret anymore.

And what exactly rules out communication with it? Explain the physics in question me. Why would it be hard to hide signals to it in all the background clutter?

Whats the purpose of a military base on mars? It serves no purpose.

Why ask if you have made up your mind allready?So basically having a' base' that can not be hit by a first strike attack is a bad thing in military terms now? Fact is it is the ultimate high ground wether they in fact managed it or not.

Why? Think about it were do you put your military resources? Why do you put them there? You put your military were their are national interests i.e natural resources, ideological allies.

If your aim is survival in the long term instead of total domination in the short term you will move your eggs as far away from the nest as possible. Going to Mars makes the best kind of sense in strategic terms. The Russians apparently feel happy with their forces in and around the eart i assume.

You put your forces their for two reasons to secure the region and its resources for yourself as well as to deny them to your adversary.

Or to create instability or to encircle your enemy or to put pressure on his allies etc etc etc.

A: Persian Gulf- Immense narutal resources of oil and natural gas. Strategically important region.

It's more important for the shipping routes than for the oil since the world has more oil than it knows what to do with. It is cheaper but that is just larger profit margins for big business. The US is in the middle east to control the suez and to generally cause instability and disruption on oil markets. This put's upwards pressure on oil prices and leads to dollar demand in the world. since the trade of oil is almost exclusively done in that currency.

B- Mars- Geologically dead for billions of years. Six months away it best. No martians to protect or liberate.

Mars is probably not geologically inactive as we can see while areas with very little cratering apparent. Six months? Yawn, rockets, yawn. There are far faster ways to travel ....

As far as Iraq I don't believe their was a treaty preventing our action but that is an entirely different thread.

The invasion was simply illegal and there needs be no discussion on that matter.

They would have to go there for one or more of the following reasons.
1- Strategic location: At some point in the future mars may hold some strategic value. Right now it doesn't.

How on earth can you argue it holds no strategic value? High ground is high ground whatever the time lapse.....

2- Economic possibilties: Mars probably has significant mineral deposits which perhaps in the future will become economically viable.

They are still holing out large underground 'bases' in Russia to this very day so they do apparently have cash to spend on thing you consider 'uneconomical'.

3- Political possibilties: If another space race heats up the first to land on mars would be the victor.

Unless someone is allready there.... The US lost the "space race' back in late 70's ( well the lost it much earlier but that was the end of their competition to Russian dominance imo)

I don't think that comment is even in the ball park. Lets say your right and the rooskies got to mars and dominated the surrounding space. So what! We are here on earth and if your talking about the high ground of signifcance it would be the moon wouldn't it.

Well the assumption is that if they could go to Mars they probably sorted out their activity on the Moon long before; right? Logical, right?

It would take maybe a say or two for a missile that was fired from the moon toreach its target here on earth. It would take a much larger rocket launch from mars to do the same.

Well missiles are rather old fashioned when you have particle beam and other DEW's so why talk about them? The Moon is the ideal DEW base and that has been known since the 50's. Mabye you want to look into some of my posts relating to Russian direct energy weapons?

I think you misunderstood my post. I said we haven't gone to mars yet not because it wasn't possible but because the politically will wasn't there. And I am quite fimiliar with both the success and failures of the US and Soviet space programs. As well as their current capabilities.

Well my apologies then. I normally try work from the basis that other people are well informed but sometimes they make it rather hard for me. Do you really know what capabilities the Russians/Americans had? Did you do your own research or is it just what you heard on radio and TV?

Well isn't that what happened? The USSR occupied and enslaved eastern europe and central asia and were so nasty that the rest of the world thought the US was the lesser threat.

Well the 'lesser' threat did more damage to democracy and liberty than the USSR ever did. Check both countries records and then their stated goals and you will get some idea of the disparity between claims and actions for both.

It sounds like someone failed history. The fact is I can't see any reason that the USSR would keep a mars landing quiet it just goes against there entire history.

Then you know very little about the history of the USSR imo. If only i had the good sense not to believe the nonsense i got taught at school i would have gotten where i am now far sooner.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
And what exactly rules out communication with it? Explain the physics in question me. Why would it be hard to hide signals to it in all the background clutter?

Well the fact that if there sending signals from mars then a good proportion of them will be intercepted. And then that cesret base wouldn't be so secret. now would it.

Originally posted by StellarX
Why ask if you have made up your mind allready?So basically having a' base' that can not be hit by a first strike attack is a bad thing in military terms now? Fact is it is the ultimate high ground wether they in fact managed it or not.

The only thing I've made up my mind about is the unfeasibility of such an endeavor at this time. Having a base that can't be taken out with a first strike. Well there is value to that. But how could a base in sucha remote location affect the rest of the conflict. Okay your on Mount Everest and I'm attacking Moscow at least you'll have a great view.

Originally posted by StellarX
Or to create instability or to encircle your enemy or to put pressure on his allies etc etc etc.

And how are they doing that by flying off to mars. Without telling anyone I might add.

Originally posted by StellarX
Mars is probably not geologically inactive as we can see while areas with very little cratering apparent. Six months? Yawn, rockets, yawn. There are far faster ways to travel ....

Enlighten me Stellar what are these supposed wonder ships the russians have created.

Originally posted by StellarX
How on earth can you argue it holds no strategic value? High ground is high ground whatever the time lapse.....

How on earth can you argue that it does. At least in this decade.

Originally posted by StellarX
They are still holing out large underground 'bases' in Russia to this very day so they do apparently have cash to spend on thing you consider 'uneconomical'.

Wow Stellar your better connected than I thought so were are these new secret bases. Seriously even if that is still going on what does that have to do with building on mars. Just because you've contructed an underground secret facility in Siberia what makes you think that you've done it on mars. We've built Norad and probably countless other underground installations but you don't see us saying we've done it on mars.

Originally posted by StellarX
Unless someone is allready there.... The US lost the "space race' back in late 70's ( well the lost it much earlier but that was the end of their competition to Russian dominance imo)

Okay you say we lost. I say we won. Why cause we got to the moon and the Soviets didn't. And before you say they did. I'd like some proof. Otherwise its a rather childish arguement.

Originally posted by StellarX
Well the assumption is that if they could go to Mars they probably sorted out their activity on the Moon long before; right? Logical, right?

Another one of my reasons why the Soviets aren't on mars is because they never got to the moon in the first place.

Originally posted by StellarX
Well missiles are rather old fashioned when you have particle beam and other DEW's so why talk about them? The Moon is the ideal DEW base and that has been known since the 50's. Mabye you want to look into some of my posts relating to Russian direct energy weapons?

Yes all of these great direct energy weapons that everyone has and no one has ever used.

Originally posted by StellarX
Well my apologies then. I normally try work from the basis that other people are well informed but sometimes they make it rather hard for me.

Do you really know what capabilities the Russians/Americans had? Did you do your own research or is it just what you heard on radio and TV?

Yes I've done my own research my friend. I've studied Space Sciences myself. As far as holding the same views on there respective capabilities as you do I think we have some differences to say the least. To sum up my beliefs I really don't believe all the conspiracy theories. Maybe some are half way true. But I don't see the logic in keeping incredible technology from the masses. Or how it advances a secret society's hidden agenda. But thats just my opinion.

Originally posted by StellarX
Then you know very little about the history of the USSR imo. If only i had the good sense not to believe the nonsense i got taught at school i would have gotten where i am now far sooner.

The crux of or disconnection. I rather believe what I was taught in school.