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EPA OK’d plan to dump nerve agent into Delaware

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posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 11:57 AM
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EPA OK’d plan to dump nerve agent into Delaware

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency won't oppose the U.S. Department of Defense and DuPont Co.'s plan to dump a wastewater byproduct of a deadly nerve agent into the Delaware River.

The agency said it's assured of a safe treatment for up to 4 million gallons of caustic wastewater created in the treatment for VX, a chemical weapon with a pinhead-size potency to kill a human. DuPont is treating VX for disposal at its Newport Chemical Depot in Indiana.

The agent, once neutralized, would be shipped to DuPont's Chambers Works plant in Deepwater, N.J., for discharge into the river.

More...



:shk:

I particularly love this little factoid in the article:




The agency's position angers opponents of the disposal plan. They're concerned the wastewater would harm the Delaware, which supplies drinking water to millions...



Given this agency's recent track record, does anybody feel particularly confident that the EPA's assessment is sound?



[edit on 26-2-2006 by loam]




posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 08:12 PM
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ok news flash what they are dumping is hydrolysate it fully desolves in water. if it is so dangerous why is it in baby formula, meat, and your body! this kind of media and turn a phrase makes the reader want to read more so you are the one who has been taken for a ride. and what i can find is that there brakeing it down even more to make it even safer so there is no worries buddy.

www.ajcn.org...

[edit on 1-3-2006 by engenerQ]



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 08:17 PM
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Like energQ says, nerve agents are water soluble so they're not dangerous.

Not.

More faith based science.


This administration is gagging scientists, rewriting reports, changing the "facts" and deleting whole websites. It's a scary world out there.

...Time for me to get back to the memoryhole



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 09:39 PM
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no the science is that they have broken it down in to a ameno acid that is non toxic what so ever for goodness sakes it is a main ingredant in baby formula its not fuzzy science check it out yourself



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by engenerQ
no the science is that they have broken it down in to a ameno acid that is non toxic what so ever for goodness sakes it is a main ingredant in baby formula its not fuzzy science check it out yourself



Okay. Do you have a link?

Here's what loam's article says:



More than 250,000 gallons of VX stored at Indiana are being chemically neutralized. The process creates a wastewater called hydrolysate. About 11 percent of the government's VX stockpile has been neutralized.

The hydrolysate, which the Army has compared to liquid drain cleaner, is being stored in mobile containers until the government decides how to dispose of it.




The main ingredient in baby formula?! Is this a new depopulation scheme?





posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 10:35 PM
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I think it's funny that the EPA would burn my house down and salt the earth if I dumped a quart of motor oil behind my garage, but they rubber stamp industrial polluters routinely.

No, wait, that's not funny, that's infuriating.


Seriously, we don't need any of the regulatory agencies if they're going to act like this. Why should the American people fund this gigantic rubber stamp operation? It's a corporate rubber stamp, let them pay for it!



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 10:47 PM
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ill give you links if you read them

www.ciwmb.ca.gov...

www.science.uwaterloo.ca...

www.ajcn.org...

in some chemicals it can produce bad things

but in the case of VX it brakes down to harmells things and the more water you put it in the better and more complete it works and the even further it brakes down so when they dump it in to the river it will keep brakeing down b/c it is unstable.

upload.wikimedia.org...



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 10:59 PM
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www.delawareriverkeeper.org...

There are a number of concerns associated with VX hydrolysate.  VXH is highly caustic and could be harmful to humans and materials.  VXH has a very strong odor. It is possible that under the right conditions (if the pH were decreased below the 13 to 14 range) VX could be reformed.  And the organic layer in VXH is flammable, therefore VXH must be kept sealed from the environment at all times.   (Final Report, Treatment of VX Hydrolysate by PermaFix of Dayton, Report prepared for Montgomery County (OH) Commissioners by Dr. Bruce E. Rittmann, John Evans Professor of Environmental Engineering, Northwestern University)


So, think you're confused about a couple of things. First, there's no VX hydrolysate in baby formula. Second, hydrolysate, in and of itself, isn't anything! It's anything that's been hydrolized, right?

So, what do we know about VX hydrolysate? Uhm..yeah, flammable, caustic, smells awful. Drink up folks.



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 11:02 PM
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I read your links energQ - thanks. They describe hydrolysis, as you did.

You say the VX hydrolysate is harmless - but the US Army says it's like drain cleaner. That's not harmless.

Also, you say it will break down even further in the river - but that's an assumption. It might join with other chemicals in the river to make a new compound. Not good.

Also, you're promoting the old idea that anything can be diluted. NOT TRUE. Man has dumped so much crud into our rivers and oceans that they're not real water any more. Most of our rivers are all-new never before seen chemical compounds. Not water.


VX gas is a dangerous nerve agent:


a highly lethal nerve agent used in chemical warfare; a toxic liquid that penetrates the skin or lungs to disrupt the nervous system and stop respiration; in combat VX gas is deployed by detonating a container over the target area and can persist in the environment up to several weeks after release (Example: "VX gas is one of those things we wish we could disinvent")




Even if it is "neutralyzed" by hydrolysis, the process is NOT complete. ...Critics say the process does not use enough water and the VX is not fully neutralized. So now the idea is that if we just dump the mess in a river, the VX will finish neutralizing! That's just downright irresponsible.







posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 11:37 PM
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no actualy ive just completed my 300Lv. chem class so trust me it will brake down becaus of its unstabe bonds and what it brake down in to is alredy in the river witch would push the reaction to the other end. they decribed it as draincleaner what by smell by consistance b/c it dont act like a stong base it is actualy a acid reaction when it brakes down 4-6Ph is it the same smell who knows its just how they decribed it so what.

the way i understand it they will alredy have it broken down. if there gona just dump VX in the river non broken down ya thats a problem. but i wouldent worry to much about it



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by engenerQ
but i wouldent worry to much about it




Where I come from, they call that "stupid".

Thanks, but I'd prefer we exercise vigilance in questioning the judgment, or lack thereof, of our public officials. They are not our masters, they are our employees. I think it utterly depressing that so many people forget that...

...but then again, I shouldn't be surprised....

Simpsons 'trump' First Amendment

In an era were we are repeatedly discovering substantial ways in which we have harmed ourselves, nearly all of them start with positions like yours... "We know it all...move along... nothing to fear..."

What precisely is your objection to finding an alternative disposal method? Why should the public bare the burden of the risk, if they choose not to?



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by loam
does anybody feel particularly confident that the
EPA's assessment is sound?


Not me.

I live in Delaware, up near Philly. I think that we are
a bit north of where they plan to dump it. They are
dumping down by the Del. Memorial Bridge, right?

Delaware is already the joke of the nation as far as
Chemicals in the water and ground. This is reaffirms
the truth of that joke. 'The truth is sometimes said
in jest'.

I'm not buying into the 'nothing to worry about'.
We were told Teflon was perfect too, remember?
Now we know better. By the time we know better
about this VX dump .. it will be too late.

I am open to science and facts that could change my
mind. But so far I haven't seen anything
that can put my fears to rest.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by loam
Given this agency's recent track record, does anybody feel particularly confident that the EPA's assessment is sound?



The EPA is sold out. Newspeak. "Environmental Protection Agency" my arse.

More like "Eco-destruction Permitting Agency".

The only thing the EPA actually does is set DOLLAR values to ecological destruction. You want to take out 40 acres of protected mangroves... that will be a $25,000 permit. You want to sink battle ships containing PCB's... $40,000 permit. You want to pump biotoxins into drinking water... $100,000 please.

Kind of off subject... but anyone interested in forming a militia to take out Dupont... send me a PM, my sword raised in the spirit of Archangle Michael. I am fed up with this # and growing more militant by the day.

1984,

Sri Oracle



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 08:33 PM
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as far as i know you are not saposed to openly insult people did't your mother teach you any manners? have you read this it is alredy broken down and will then brake down more when in water. it will be harmless one of the parts made is a ingredant in babyformula if im not mistaken. then the stuff it brakes down in to is alredy there.

as far as i can tell is some parts of all the gov. agencys have corrupt parts ....i think thats just part of goverment



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by engenerQ
...it will be harmless...


I continue to remain astonished by the ignorance those words express. We barely understand our own physiology, let alone that of every other living thing also potentially impacted by this decision.

Just look at this story:




Can drugs found in water harm humans?

Although discoveries of Prozac in drinking water and coc aine in Italian rivers get plenty of press, little is actually known about what happens when people are exposed to the mixtures of drugs being found in the environment. But researchers at Italy’s University of Insubria have taken an important step. In the first study to examine the effects of a drug mixture at environmental levels on human cells, posted today to ES&T’s Research ASAP website (DOI: 10.1021/es051715a), they report that a combination of pharmaceutical compounds inhibits the growth of embryonic kidney cells in laboratory tests.

More...





Well that might be worth further investigation... Has anyone considered how this nerve agent might interact with other contaminants in the river? Don't you think that might be prudent?

What makes you so confident the EPA has it right?

[edit on 2-3-2006 by loam]



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 09:31 PM
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ok once agian it will NOT be a nerrve agent once its intoduced it will be broken down. and once agian the chemicals alredy broken down are alredy in the river.

point out the ignorance



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by engenerQ
ok once agian it will NOT be a nerrve agent once its intoduced it will be broken down.




You are saying the river water will complete the hydrolysis process.

That's an assumption. Likely mistaken. The river is already full of chemicals.

The chemicals will interract or unite. Nobody knows how.






and once agian the chemicals alredy broken down are alredy in the river.




???

Can you tell us what they all have broken down to become? And what compounds they form when catalyzed by hydrogen, oxygen or H2O? At least?





point out the ignorance




It would take too long.


.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 10:37 PM
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by engenerQ
point out the ignorance


Here is the deal.

Mason & Hanger Corporation , (well known for the large fines and penalties it receives from breaking the rules) won a contract to use a method of treatment and distruction which consists of adding the VX agent to a solution of water and heated sodium hydroxide.

The resulting reaction neutralizes the VX and creates a corrosive byproduct called hydrolysate. Four million gallons of hydrolysate are expected to be created over the course of neutralizing the entire stockpile. The Caustic “Wastewater” will be held until the Du Pont Company is ready to take control for the next step in the neutralization process.

This does not mean that the VX hydrolysate will not contain any VX. The detectable limit being used by the Army is 20 ppb, therefore the Army will allow VX nerve agent to be shipped off site and to New Jersey as long as the VX in the hydrolysate is less than 20 ppb.

Further, in an August 26, 2003 article in Chemical & Engineering News (“Destroying Chemical Weapons, Army’s Problem-Plagued Program More Costly than Originally Planned”, Lois R. Ember) Terry Arthur, a Newport spokeswoman said that while the Army committed not to ship VX hydrolysate off-site unless the VX levels were less than 20 ppb, it couldn’t now honor such a commitment. She went on to say, “As measured, caustic neutralization produces a hydrolysate containing 40 to 80 ppb of VX.”

In the next step, the neutralized VX would be loaded into hazardous materials tanker trucks for the 760-mile trip to a New Jersey Du Pont facility for “further” treatment. Upon completion, the VX “wastewater” will be dumped into the Delaware river. A move the CDC warns raises concerns and questions about potential impacts on public health and the environment

Despite public outcry, CDC reports, and academic warnings, Congress was told that the neutralization process was ready, and workers began chemically “neutralizing” the VX nerve agent in May 2005.


VXH is highly caustic and could be harmful to humans and materials. VXH has a very strong odor. It is possible that under the right conditions (if the pH were decreased below the 13 to 14 range) VX could be reformed. And the organic layer in VXH is flammable, therefore VXH must be kept sealed from the environment at all times.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 10:53 PM
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makeitso:

Outstanding post!


:shk:

The people at the EPA are pathehtic.



posted on Mar, 2 2006 @ 11:29 PM
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well ya it would its not a assumption its just fact when you put a chemical like VX in water it brakes dowm. but it will be broken b4 it gets to the point where they will dump it , read in the article.

there is a reason why you dont find VX in nature it has to be made in the lab under very specific condisions it wont just mingel in a river and BOOM its all VX dosent work like that. for one well it brakes down in water and somthign forming in what it brakes down in is well kinda hard to do lol

well ill do my best here goes(if totaly broken down)
methyl alcohol
ethyl alcohol
thioate salt
propalene
and a salt i dont remember the name of off hand but is a natural ocuring one

i asume you mean reacted with rather then catalyzed b/c when you use a catalist it is not consumed it mearly lowers the actavation energy for forming or takeing apart a compond. but the alcohol wont react same as pooring booze and rubbing alcohol down the drain. the salt disasociates and the propalene will well float the unknown salt will disasociate.

the only real problem with this is i havent worked out weather the salts will affect the PH of the river, though there is enough water there that t wont matter to much.

adding NaOH does make sence but i didnt do the chem for VXH its on the site

but ya moveing it well not that smart but im shure it has been done b4 . still is not gona b a problem b/c what they dump in the river eventualy will not be harmfull.

and i still havent got the answer to why that is ignorant lol

ignorant is saying below 14 Ph b/c there is no such thing even pure NaOH isnt 14 it is a bit above it and to turn a whole tanker load of somthing down to 13 or below would have to make a SUPER strong NaOH or other very strong base and would take about 1-2 tankers(it could take 10 or more depending on the Ph of VXH) of that base depending on the Ph of VXH

i still see nothing to worry about i and im near that plant in indiana lol

plz feel free to check it im not above makeing mistakes i make them all the time. lol

[edit on 2-3-2006 by engenerQ]



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