Offshore Supercarrier Desalinization?

I make friends with lots of people. One of them is a man in his eighties, whom I transact business with. This gentleman is a hunter, very smart, and someone I respect much simply due to his common sense approach to living and life.

Now this guy spent many years in the Navy, and he tells me that a supercarrier like the Abraham Lincoln could float off of the coast of a major city, and provide sufficient electricity and desalinized water for many hundred if not thousands of people, for a long time. The nuclear plant is what powers this process at sea, and it will work also when docked.

I've asked other military people since then, and a lot of them say yes, this is true, but I encounter an interesting objection from them sometimes, and it goes like this: "Well, that's military equipment. Why would it be used for civilians?"

I think you can see my question here: 1: Would this work, and 2: Is there any real reason that military tech cannot be used in the peaceful sector or for peaceful application? Because taxes of a bunch of peaceloving Americans paid for supercarriers.

Thanks for any info. I looked up some info on carriers, but couldn't answer these questions.

my logical answer - based on knowing next to eff all about carriers would be :

1 - from what i have read the cost /megawatt of power produced by a navalised nuke reactor is higer than ANY other source we currently employ -

2 - given that 1 is correct free market forces would goad an entropeneur to create a rival energy company - that could undercut " US NAVY POWER AND LIGHT " - and sell to the public

3 - what ya gonna do when the carrier sails ?? - your civililian energy load will not magically disapear just because there is a war on - so you are going to have to have shore based capacity to meet the demand - which leads back to point one

using a capital ship in this manner - only works IMHO on a short term basis dor disaster relief

exactly as the USS iwo jima did off NOLA following katrina - that must have cost a fortune to run the ship at full power 24/7 - but it was needed - and the govt was paying

When I first gained employment at this East Coast Shipyard I was told by olde timers back then that they had worked on some barges converted to water distillation plants for use at Gitmo. The whole barge was turned into a distillation plant..several of them..to run 24/7 to service the bases at Gitmo. It seems that Fidel Castro had cut off the water main to the base as part of the "Take that " strategy going on at the time.
This is not a new concept ..its just that the power needed to keep such a system going is considerable.
Also as the poster stated..nuclear power for this purpose is expensive. Civilian uses for nuclear power outside of generating electricity are very few or non existant ..other than research or non destructive testing.
Though I am not that knowlegable in it ..I have often wondered why in places with alot of sunlight this was not done by focusing sunlight brightly in several places to get water to boil..then distill it across a cooling network. I have seen those videos where they focus sunlight through mirrors and lenses to cut metal. Seems to me you dont need quite that much but just enough in stages to get the water to boil in quantity on a sunny day ..enough to make thousands of gallons. Enough to see you through the non sunny days. Seems to me also that if you can get part of the system pulled down in a vacum it will lower the boiling/flash off point of water making the system more effecient.
I myself own a small electric distiller (12gpd) and distill my tap water from the city. It does a great job and the maintenance is not difficult. Makes great water...for iced tea...ice too. Once you set it up its all automatic...including the shut off when it is full.
I have worked on those distillate systems on those carriers. They are huge and make plenty of water. They also run them 24/7. They must also have the capacity to turn one off when it needs scheduled maintenance and the other units must pick up the slack. Gives you a idea how much volume they must accomodate on a ship with 5000 plus people.
Some of the ships now days are using a newer type of reverse osmosis system where the water is strained through a membrane filtering out the salt water components. I believe this is the type of system used in private ships..sailing ships where electrical power is limited. This is just scaled up for larger ships.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Hey peeps (Wow, that sounds funny)

Doing my time 92-96 in it and taking rides on a couple of those boats that dragged our tomcats around....

5000 kids on the carrier and we always had fresh water. even 6 months out.
We'd run out of JP5 all the time (jet fuel), and we'd run underway replenishment for food, but the desalination (It's not distillation, that's for booze! woo!) plants did a great job. Granted they used the fuel tanks to store water sometimes, so you come out of the shower like a slick fish.....

but, it's a biproduct of the nuke reactor.

would it be possible to set it up off shore of some water needing country....

there are better options and I don't know if there is a depth issue. but yeah it's possible in my eyes.

-DT

I don't think there'd be any real practicle means of providing that much water ashore, simply because the carrier would have to be sitting peirside to do it.

In a disaster relief situation, it's entirely doable though, especially the power.

DOH! doubleclick on post...

[edit on 1-3-2006 by Travellar]

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
1 - from what i have read the cost /megawatt of power produced by a navalised nuke reactor is higer than ANY other source we currently employ -

2 - given that 1 is correct free market forces would goad an entropeneur to create a rival energy company - that could undercut " US NAVY POWER AND LIGHT " - and sell to the public

3 - what ya gonna do when the carrier sails ?? - your civililian energy load will not magically disapear just because there is a war on - so you are going to have to have shore based capacity to meet the demand - which leads back to point one

using a capital ship in this manner - only works IMHO on a short term basis dor disaster relief

exactly as the USS iwo jima did off NOLA following katrina - that must have cost a fortune to run the ship at full power 24/7 - but it was needed - and the govt was paying

Thanks Ape.

1: naval nuke power is too costly, I want to confirm this. I wonder why it is so? Is it because of contiual maintenence that needs doing? Why does the nuke reactor of a carrier differ so much from a land based one?

2: Well, I'm talking about using the nuclear powerplant of a carrier to produce A: clean water as a by-product, and of course B: power. Sure, land-based power is cheaper, but isn't it also A: monopolistic, and B: fragile as to interruptions?

3: Well, I'm not saying to use a ship that's responsible to the military also, I'm just asking why military technology isn't used for civilian needs. I mean, really you could put the nuke reactor on a barge and float it 500 yards out with a pipe along the seabed not too hard. Like the type of pipe is used for channel dredging. It could carry water and electircal conduit.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I was told by olde timers back then that they had worked on some barges converted to water distillation plants for use at Gitmo. The whole barge was turned into a distillation plant..several of them..to run 24/7 to service the bases at Gitmo. It seems that Fidel Castro had cut off the water main to the base as part of the "Take that " strategy going on at the time.
This is not a new concept ..its just that the power needed to keep such a system going is considerable.

Excellent points Orangetom1999. I like your light-based idea also. Well conceived!

So my question is this: How much did those barges cost, and can it be said that it is still prohibitively costly to run off-shore power and desalinization is such a manner? I ask because I feel that land-based power and water (especially water) will eventually either go away or become commodities in themselves.

When water becomes scarce in the southwest USA, for example (Los Angeles is built on a desert which was irrigated by stealing water from northern areas) won't the make ideas like this more feasible? I mean, what if the land-based water supply is compromised in some way?

Originally posted by Derek Trance
Hey peeps

(Wow, that sounds funny)
Doing my time 92-96 in it and taking rides on a couple of those boats that dragged our tomcats around....

5000 kids on the carrier and we always had fresh water. even 6 months out.
We'd run out of JP5 all the time (jet fuel), and we'd run underway replenishment for food, but the desalination (It's not distillation, that's for booze! woo!) plants did a great job. Granted they used the fuel tanks to store water sometimes, so you come out of the shower like a slick fish.....

but, it's a biproduct of the nuke reactor.

would it be possible to set it up off shore of some water needing country....

there are better options and I don't know if there is a depth issue. but yeah it's possible in my eyes.

-DT

Hey DT. You mention better options for water desalinization. I am wondering what you've got in mind.

I am asking this question mainly because 30 million people live in LA, which has no water of its own. They pump water into the aquifer under the city every day, but it's drained quickly and refilled. Americans might get very thirsty there some day. ...Then there's third world countries that might also want to have nuke-power only for basic needs like water and power (not a land based fission plant which involves the IEAE or atomic bodies to regulate them).

I'm guessing now that you guys have explained it to me, it could be done, but the technology is too costly.

My friend (mentioned above) told me that the military refusing to allow their tech to be used in the civilian sector was conspiratorial in nature. He would probably disagree with what you're saying about cost and maintenence. He said they've had sea-based nuke reactors for sixty years and the technology has been perfected. He says land based nuke plants are built with much poorer technology and could be much more efficient. He spent his whole life in the Navy.

Very Nice picture of the Aikido Master Morihei Ueshiba. Its has been years since I've seen any of those pictures or even been in a dojo.

As to nuclear power being very expensive...I can vouch for that. I am a nuclear fueler. Nothing about it is inexpensive. Even the training. I speak for the Civilian side as well as the military side of the house.

As I recall the olde timers telling me the stories of the barges they helped to build they were boilers making steam for the distiller units mounted on the barges...several distillers fed steam from a boiler. THe boilers were fired up with a fuel called "bunker C. This too is a expensive deal but much cheaper than nuclear fuel. Bunker C is about the lowest fuel source on the chain of petroleum products used in ships for boilers. It is almost rock solid in its unheated state and must be preheated to get it to flow properly to feed into the fuel tube sheets in a boiler.
The whole process was not inexpensive for the base at Gitmo but the political considerations out weighed the expenses back in those days.
By the way ..these large volume distillers ..operate in stages ..some 6 to 8 stages..or so. They also operate in a vacuum so that the water will vaporize at a lower boiling point...more volume and boil off at a lower temperature because of the vacuum effect.

I have often wondered why the Feds dont make several pipelines across the country to ship water from areas of plenty to areas of scarcity as needed. THey can eminent domain all kinds of property for a shopping center...why not eminent domain for a worthwhile project like this.
You can even operate the valves in such a system by remote control/computers. Valves to open the system and valves to drain the pipe to prevent freezing and damaging the system when you are not pushing water through it. This just seems like common sense to me.
Gasoline and natural gas are shipped all across this nation by pipelines...why not water??? That would make more sense to me than expensive desalinization.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Very Nice picture of the Aikido Master Morihei Ueshiba. Its has been years since I've seen any of those pictures or even been in a dojo.

Thanks! Excellent to know you've practiced it in the past. Yeah, Aikido is truly sublime and even a little study of it will stay with you for a lifetime. O'sensei was one of a kind. I enjoy the pictures of him from his youth the most. He looks like a total hard-ass back then when he was learning ju-jitsu and kendo, etc. All hard arts in his youth, then "softening" into Aikido later on. What an amazing man he was. ...Legend has it that when he died, it took several men to lift his tiny body, so heavy his mass had become. Weird huh?

As to nuclear power being very expensive...I can vouch for that. I am a nuclear fueler. Nothing about it is inexpensive. Even the training. I speak for the Civilian side as well as the military side of the house.

This is where I have more questions. Could it be said that nuclear power has been kept at such a high cost? I wonder if it is like the lowly diamond, which is really very common as a gem, but whose price has been inflated unnaturally. I wonder if nuke-tech is similarly inflated from a cost perspective. I mean, It's been around for over fifty years, so why is it so costly?

I'm not necessarily a proponent of nuclear power because of the weaponized byproducts which also result, but I think humans can harness nuke power for peace while still reducing warheads (to zero eventually).

As I recall the olde timers telling me the stories of the barges they helped to build they were boilers making steam for the distiller units mounted on the barges...several distillers fed steam from a boiler.

Ah, so it wasn't a nuke plant in them. I had misread that passage.

BTW, a friend of mine was in the Navy, and he told me about a boiler explosion on a ship around the time of Gulf War I where some few dozens of sailors were flash-cooked. My friend was a corpman and he described the cleanup of these bodies. He said such events often go totally unreported sometimes. Do you think he was telling the truth? I thought this was crazy when I heard it.

They also operate in a vacuum so that the water will vaporize at a lower boiling point...more volume and boil off at a lower temperature because of the vacuum effect.

Very interesting! Apparently clean water production alone is not hard and doesn't require nuke-power to do it.

I have often wondered why the Feds dont make several pipelines across the country to ship water from areas of plenty to areas of scarcity as needed. THey can eminent domain all kinds of property for a shopping center...why not eminent domain for a worthwhile project like this.

Oh, I am certain that this is not done because is would make Americans too self-reliant. The goal is to cripple America without Americans noticing, IMO. But then, I'm just a crazy American conspiracy theorist, so I would probably not be invited to speak at the Bilderberg forum with this viewpoint.

You can even operate the valves in such a system by remote control/computers. Valves to open the system and valves to drain the pipe to prevent freezing and damaging the system when you are not pushing water through it. This just seems like common sense to me.
Gasoline and natural gas are shipped all across this nation by pipelines...why not water??? That would make more sense to me than expensive desalinization.

Yes, of course those pipelines would require forethought and planning, something Americans are not allowed (by their house, senate, president and supreme court) to do. This is why we are a nuke-propagating nation but we have no civil defense and no holes to jump into when nukes come. Obviously this reflects zero-forthought. Also, those Americans who try to get that situation changed, will tell you, that it's not possible to stop the gutting of America's internal national survival systems.

Yes, you are 100% correct. There should be delivery systems for water. However, when the time comes that Americans get too unruly, the banks overseas (who hold title on this land and its citizens) want to be able to cripple us more quickly so they can reposess the joint.

In the meantime, it's fun to discuss tha problem of water, particularly before it becomes a major issue, which it certainly will.

Thanks for the input so far! This is one of the biggest and least-discussed conspiracies out there, IMO. Not only Americans should be interested in it, because clean water and power will become priceless for some nations, as this GWOT continues, IMO.

[edit on 4-3-2006 by smallpeeps]

Yes..definitely Aikidol is very sublime..in its workings and philosophy. I have only met a handful of westerners who have entered the higher level schools. THey tell very unusual stories of the training..not just physical but also of spiritual training far beyond the thinking of that to which most westerners are accustomed. I found it very intresting to listen to these few who have been priveleged to attend these schools.

One of the reasons for which nuclear power is so expensive ..first is the cost of the fuel. The methods for processing the fuel are extensive involved and expensive. The more powerful the fuel levels the more processing is done to it. Time and moneys. Once the fuel is processed it is put into fuel cells...it must then be controlled carefully ...to keep it from falling into the wrong or unauthorized hands. More expenses. Not only the fuel and its handling but the tools to properly install it...prepare it ..handle it..store it....ad nauseum. REmember too ..not just anyone is trained and qualified to handle fuel like this. Added expenses here too.
The reactors..themselves..the coolant pumps..not like anything you have ever seen...very expensive. The materials to install and repair these ...expensive. Any scrap material must be handled carefully as it is often contaminated..you dont just dump this stuff in the city landfill. More costs and expenses.
I understand about the idea that there are plenty of diamonds out here ....the price is kept artifically high ...but this type of material..fuel and other necessities fo this buisness is a horse of a totally different colour from diamonds. Not comparable..not even close.
NO doubt that humans can harness nuclear power for peaceful purposes. I wont debate that with you ..simply because it is so obvious.

NO the Gitmo Boilers and distilling plants were not nuclear ..but conventional oil fired units to make the steam for the distillation plants.

By the way I agree with you about the conspiracy..part and no you are not a nut or crazy ..when one sits back and thinks about it ..stops using the standard television frame of reference on every type of issue or thinking ..it becomes obvious. WE need a pipeline or several to carry water across this nation from the areas of plenty to areas of scarcity. No college degree needed here..simplicity is the key. Keep it simple stupid..the KISS principle.

ONe more thing small peeps...where did you find out about the banks involvement in so much of what is happening in this world...and has always happened. I take it a little further ..to include the insurance companys who insure many of these international loans. Good material along this line of thinking is difficult to find.


Thanks,
Orangetom.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
The reactors..themselves..the coolant pumps..not like anything you have ever seen...very expensive. The materials to install and repair these ...expensive. Any scrap material must be handled carefully as it is often contaminated..you dont just dump this stuff in the city landfill. More costs and expenses.

Good point about the ancillary costs and issues. I had thought of it, but I appreciate your knowledge of the subject. Can you give more detail on what a fueler does?

I understand about the idea that there are plenty of diamonds out here ....the price is kept artifically high ...but this type of material..fuel and other necessities fo this buisness is a horse of a totally different colour from diamonds. Not comparable..not even close.
NO doubt that humans can harness nuclear power for peaceful purposes. I wont debate that with you ..simply because it is so obvious.

Yes, I understand. It's good that we make that distinction because nuclear power (and the energy and water it can produce) would be worth more than diamonds. But then, as you mention, there are contamination costs and badness also. Kinda like the dead kids from cave ins at the diamond mines. Everything's got its down side.

way I agree with you about the conspiracy..part and no you are not a nut or crazy ..when one sits back and thinks about it ..stops using the standard television frame of reference on every type of issue or thinking ..it becomes obvious. WE need a pipeline or several to carry water across this nation from the areas of plenty to areas of scarcity. No college degree needed here..simplicity is the key. Keep it simple stupid..the KISS principle.

Yes. Part of the problem is the philosophical separation which Americans are conditioned with. We are encouraged to see resources as being owned. Really, who can own groundwater or riverwater? One would have to logically say that only local communities can own it.

...yet we see in the aforementioned case of Los Angeles, water is taken from nearby communities to create a west-coast southern mega-city, which is done for, what? Tactical reasons? I can't see why Los Angeles is irrigated at such a huge cost. That city is like encouraging 20 million people to live on a moonbase with the most fragile lifeline. There are books on this subject which make good reading.

ONe more thing small peeps...where did you find out about the banks involvement in so much of what is happening in this world...and has always happened. I take it a little further ..to include the insurance companys who insure many of these international loans. Good material along this line of thinking is difficult to find.

Well, I don't claim to be an expert, just a tenacious fool.

I have been reading a lot at www.suijuris.net... and forums like that in the past year or so. I have also researched the Banking Act and the method by which the gold standard was removed from US currency, allowing an inflationary-credit system to replace it. This was done through the New Deal, which was instigated by the bankers' dumping money into the market to make it crash. Once they got their credit-state, they fostered WW2 in europe to hasten the World Bank, which came about post WW2 in the form of the International Monetary Fund.

America owes the bankers big time, in the form of the national debt. It's not designed to go down, but to remain, so that taxes can be milked from the citizens. The US is a corporation, as is evidenced by documents which can be found on the web. Just search for "incorporation of US territories" and you'll find the data.

Inflationary credit, income tax, are planks of communism. Communism and Fascism are the same thing in different form. Fascists took over Italy via corporations (called "guilds" back then). Once the corporations got control of industries, fascism ensued. I think it's similar to the fascism of the World Bank and the IMF/Bilderbergers/PNAC, etc today. These fascists are more delicate and subtle with the machinery because the sheer number of people versus the 5% in power means that power could shift quickly.

Did you know that according to the UCC (Uniform Commerce Code, invented by bankers post WW2), corporations are legally referred to as "persons"? --Isn't that wild? Here's a website that discusses that issue a bit more:

www.ratical.org...

It is essential to understand how corporations prior to the Civil War were legislatively defined, so we may better appreciate what we can discover and make use of today, using the sections still present in our state constitutions -- as well as reinstating and strengthening in favor of nature, citizens, and communities, many sections that have been repealed by corporate groups seeking to make incorporation laws more "corporate friendly" -- to overthrow corporate authority, and reinstate the authority of we the sovereign people. Up to the mid-1800s,

Corporations had limited duration, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years -- they were not given forever, like corporate charters are given today.


- The amount of land a corporation could own was limited.

- The amount of capitalization a corporation could have was limited.

- The corporation had to be chartered for a specific purpose -- not for everything, or anything.

- The internal governance was very different --

- shareholders had a lot more rights than they have today, for major decisions such as mergers; sometimes they had to have unanimous shareholder consent.

- There were no limitations protections on liability -- managers, directors, and shareholders were liable for all debts and harms and in some states, doubly or triply liable.

- The states reserved the right to amend the charters, or to revoke them -- even for no reason at all.

Corporations generate much more taxes and interest for the banksters and their owned nations. Yet the people are largely ignorant of how corporate accounting (and fraud) takes place. This means the Banks have to carefully arrange affairs to keep interest monies clinking in their pockets.

When I see how much people pay for homes, paying for the darn house three times over with a mortgage, and then thinking that when they sell it and make 100k profit they say, "Yee ha!" ...What fools. But then, that's the lie of inflationary money. It's sustained by everyone's belief in it. A good term to research is "colored money", which is what Federal Reserve Tokens (dollars) are, actually. They used to be called "Notes", when they could be exchanged, but now they're just debt instruments, even tho' they still use the word note, it's not really a note.

Anyway, I believe the war of 1812, and the civil war, and ww1, and the crash of 1925, were irresistably encouraged if not engineered (and enjoyed) by the banksters of the world (less than ten families at the core) who are keenly aware of the sophistication-level of each nation on Earth, and are scheming globally against the less-educated (read: financially ignorant) world populaces, as the industrial age fades. The US masses are the enemy of these usurious-powers, because they hold in their hands the ability to overthrow the whole system with minimal loss of life. If the dollar were reformed, the rich would cry, but the aggregate wealth of America would multiply.

America could, just with its natural resources and innovative, benevolent population, produce abundance enough for the whole world, but how can this be allowed if the bankers don't get their 2-3% piece of it?

Actually, the nature of monetized credit, like America has now, is that everything is already paid for. US citizens give up their sovereign status at the moment their parents get them A: a birth certificate, and B: a SSN. Unless they step off that hamster wheel, they may even believe they'll have something when they retire after a lifetime of work and taxation. Sad, really.

[EDIT: Removed last bit. Way too preachy.]


[edit on 5-3-2006 by smallpeeps]

Very Very intresting.

First off a nuclear fueler is trained to follow specific proceedures to install fuel rods in a reactor. In different systems of operation or reactor types it is done differently but nonetheless there are very specific proceedures for conducting this operation.

By the way...I have been to Los Angeles ..and hope never to go back. There or San Diego either. Too many people in a small area. Same with New York City.

As to that accident you mention on a Navy Ship...It is true. This event I know about happened after the first Gulf War. The wrong grade bolts were installed in a large main steam flange ..the pipe being about 18 inchs or better in diameter. The bolts failed under high pressure and resulted in a huge blow out in a confined engine room or machinery room space and it was instant death. This is not the first time this type of event has happened in Naval History. It is very tragic when it happens. THese people were instantly pressure cooked. This is like very high volume 600psi saturated steam or 1200 psi dry steam. Either way it was instantaneous..and tragic. Someone goofed up in acquiring the wrong material. I have worked on this type of steam system on carriers and submarines ..very hard work.

As to this buisness of banks and credit..I make note of the fact that you have the basic outline much more accurately than the average American. Most havent a clue.

What I have noted is that the attempts of the money lenders is to have all nations on a credit system where they can control the value of the moneys. Phoney fiat money systems. This system can be traced to ancient times when the money lenders operated out of tables in the temples.
IN modern times they seem to quickly make governments thier subjects and hence the people of nations.
I suspect that the inflation of the 1970s into the early 1980s in Mexico was deliberately caused so that certain buisnesses could set up shop for pennys on the dollar in Mexico..and we see the chaos which is occuring today as a result of this. Especially the trade differences for which so many are screaming but dont have a clue that this was deliberately cultivated.
Same thing with the developement of China and the outsourceing of which so many today scream. This was deliberately caused..and banks and insurance companys who insure the loans helped in this ..they cultivated it.


Yes I have known that corporations are called persons...persons are corporations and have corporation numbers...called SSNs. I have known this for years now.
People who dont have corporation numbers are called individuals. Very few individuals left in this nation anymore. Another word for individuals is Citizens. Citizens verses ....subjects.
This is nothing more than Admiralty Maritime Law enroaching on land. The commercial law of the seas ...invading on land. The very thing our founders warned us about. This is also how you go from Constitutional law to statutes at equity..a different thing.

Also yes..it appears that many wars took place because one nation or another reniged on the loans made by these banks and the banks found themselves with having to call in the reposession man...to reposses whole nations. The repo man.
This is not how ones history books read.

Gotta go Smallpeeps. Thanks for a very intresting post.

Orangetom