Cry WOLF

Masonic Light or any Mason

Are you allowed to reveal what degree that you are and if so what degree are you?

Yes we are. I am a Past Master under UGLE, and also a Royal Arch freemason. I'm not in the Scottish Rite (it's called the Ancient & Accepted in England & Wales) which is the side order that has the large number of degrees. ML may be able to help you out here.

Most freemasons have completed the 3rd degree, which is the highest degree available. It is not, however, the highest masonic rank, which is Grand Master. To the best of my knowledge there are no Grand Masters posting on this board, FYI.

Originally posted by Nygdan
good point, thats the practicing aspect of it. I wonder what happens with religions without holy texts? Anyone know of a specific example?

That's an interesting question. I'm not entirely certain as I know of no "main-stream" religion that doesn't have a holy book of some sort, but somewhere in the back of my mind I remember reading once that it has been the practice of some (non-U.S.) Lodges to have a single book with blank leaves in it to represent the holy book of one's choice. Personally I like that idea, it makes everyone more equal, so to speak...and that's a fundamental of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Masonic Light or any Mason

Are you allowed to reveal what degree that you are and if so what degree are you?

I'm a Past Master in my Lodge, and am currently serving my 4th term as Secretary. I am a 32° Scottish Rite Mason, and serve as Director of Work in my Scottish Rite Temple. In the York Rite, I am a Royal Arch Mason, a Cryptic Mason, and a Knight Templar. I also belong to several honorary and research bodies including Allied Masonic Degrees, York Rite College, and Grand College of Rites.

I'm 2nd degree (Fellowcraft). Quite a young 'un.

Originally posted by Appak

Originally posted by Nygdan
good point, thats the practicing aspect of it. I wonder what happens with religions without holy texts? Anyone know of a specific example?

That's an interesting question. I'm not entirely certain as I know of no "main-stream" religion that doesn't have a holy book of some sort, but somewhere in the back of my mind I remember reading once that it has been the practice of some (non-U.S.) Lodges to have a single book with blank leaves in it to represent the holy book of one's choice. Personally I like that idea, it makes everyone more equal, so to speak...and that's a fundamental of Freemasonry.

In my Jurisdiction, all Candidates are required to use the Holy Bible, regardless of their personal religious beliefs. This is because:

1. The Bible is the traditional book of sacred law in Freemasonry.

2. The Bible is a symbol of the Divine Will, i.e., it isn't necessary to literally believe every single word written in it to accept it as a symbol.

For the same reasons, people of all different religions are sworn in on the bible in courts of law in the United States.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Masonic Light or any Mason

Are you allowed to reveal what degree that you are and if so what degree are you?

Since you've now had several answers to your question, could you perhaps explain why you asked? And perhaps, since it's only fair, could you let us know how long you've been studying freemasonry and what your primary sources of information are?

Thanks

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Masonic Light or any Mason

Are you allowed to reveal what degree that you are and if so what degree are you?

Since you've now had several answers to your question, could you perhaps explain why you asked? And perhaps, since it's only fair, could you let us know how long you've been studying freemasonry and what your primary sources of information are?

Thanks

I asked because I didn't know the answer, and I thought it was important to know. I have not really been studying freemasonary though I looked into it years back. I determined that it was the wrong path. I think that it is important to have reasons to believe what I believe based on facts. I also think getting both sides of the story is the best way to learn. I don't really have any primary sources of information as it was a while back when I looked at Freemasonary. I guess if I had a primary souce of information, it would be the Bible.

I believe that you are on the wrong path, however, I have observed that the quality of the person that belongs to your organization is the cream of the crop.

Thank you for answering my questions.

Thanks for answering

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I determined that it was the wrong path.

Yeah, I hear this a lot. The path that freemasons tread and the path that anti-masonic Christians think they tread are two different things

I think that it is important to have reasons to believe what I believe based on facts.

Just be aware that you're getting an awful lot of opinion mixed in with fact on this website. The only way you're really going to know about freemasonry is (a) join or (b) talk to someone who has.

I also think getting both sides of the story is the best way to learn.

That's certainly true.

I don't really have any primary sources of information as it was a while back when I looked at Freemasonary. I guess if I had a primary souce of information, it would be the Bible.

The bible is certainly 'the rule and guide of our faith' (to paraphrase the ritual) and is the only book worth studying with regard to salvation and spirituality.

Unfortunately it doesn't help very much with the knotty issue of 'what is freemasonry?'. It is all to commonplace to develop a viewpoint and then use passages from the Bible to back that up. It doesn't work because a lot of the time the Bible is dealing with allegory (not unlike freemasonry) - fundies do understand that really but just pick and choose which bits they want to take literally as it suits.

I have observed that the quality of the person that belongs to your organization is the cream of the crop.

Not all are 'cream of the crop', but everyone is expected to try and be a better person than they were yesterday. If you're applying that comment to me then I'm deeply flattered, but to God goes the glory, my friend.

Trinityman,

I am somewhat puzzled by some of the responses that I read on this board regarding the Masons(from the Masons). I probably undersold my hand quite a bit about what I know about Masons. That being the case, it has been eating at me about these responses

I realize that you are bound to secrecy in most of these responses, but what bothers me is, doesn't some of that bother you. Also when you read some of this, as you call it, anti Mason stuff, doesn't that make you question what you believe?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Also when you read some of this, as you call it, anti Mason stuff, doesn't that make you question what you believe?

Sorry SunMatrix, I know that was directed at trinityman but I had to jump in here.

So far, no one on this board has posted anything that has made me question my belief in Freemasonry for a number of reasons.

Firstly, the majority of what is posted is so ridiculous that I just can't take it seriously (ie. Freemasons conjuring demons and all having telepathic powers).

Secondly, all of the people who come in here with anti-masonic information are not Freemasons themselves. They have always got their information - "from a friend of a friend", or from the internet (god knows thats a trustworthy source of info....) or from one of the numerous Anti-masonic books that are in print.

None of them have any direct experience with Freemasonry - and those that do, generally fit into the first category of people I mentioned.
(For example one guy was telling us that masons were harrasing him and blowing up his toilet - cos apparantly we dont have better things to do than blow up peoples toilets )

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Trinityman

Hi

I am somewhat puzzled by some of the responses that I read on this board regarding the Masons(from the Masons).

I'm sorry to hear that. I'll see if I can shed any light on the situation.

I probably undersold my hand quite a bit about what I know about Masons.

That's an interesting comment. Why would you do such a thing? I think it is important to be entirely transparent otherwise one could be accused of having a hidden agenda. Come to think of it, I have been accused of having a hidden agenda anyway so perhaps it doesn't matter . Either way, I'd be grateful if you could elaborate on the additional knowledge you hold - it is very difficult to hold a genuine debate on a subject when one half is 'holding back'.

I realize that you are bound to secrecy in most of these responses, but what bothers me is, doesn't some of that bother you.

I am not bound by secrecy in any way. I have promised not to reveal the modes of recognition and I won't, but I have consistently answered all questions asked of me, notwithstanding fast-moving threads where I might have missed something. So what exactly do you think I might be bothered by?

Also when you read some of this, as you call it, anti Mason stuff, doesn't that make you question what you believe?

About freemasonry? Absolutely not. Much of the anti-masonic postings are either

(a) assumptions based on someone elses false views,

(b) genuinely held but wrong views about the Craft based on a misinterpretation of scripture and a misunderstanding of what freemasonry is all about, or

(c) a confusion between freemasons and freemasonry.

If someone has a problem with freemasonry that makes sense based on the reality of the organization then there is an opportunity to discuss that. Freemasonry isn't perfect, and the biggest (genuine) critics are to be found within the fraternity itself. Just visit any of the masonic discussion boards to see what bugs masons. I understand the viewpoints of spiritual incompatibility, and of concerns of masonic influence in government, but when I am told that I am taught astral travelling (for example) in freemasonry then I'm afraid I start to lose interest in the discussion because there is no common ground between my viewpoint and experiences and those kinds of claims.

SunMatrix, I know you addressed this to Trinity, but I'd like to add a couple of things:

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


I realize that you are bound to secrecy in most of these responses, but what bothers me is, doesn't some of that bother you.

As Trinity mentioned, we are not so "bound to secrecy". Non-Masons who get their ideas about Masonry from anti-Masonic websites, without any real practical knowledge of either the fraternity or its members, often come away with some strange ideas regarding the entire subject. They tend to view it as some sort of top secret cabal. It's not. It's a fraternal organization, members identify themselves as such to the public, we go to Lodge meetings because we enjoy it, and we aren't sworn to keep any of the fraternity's teachings or symbols a secret (actually, Masons have been publishing books on everything in the fraternity for centuries).

Also when you read some of this, as you call it, anti Mason stuff, doesn't that make you question what you believe?

Many Masons read anti-Masonic material for entertainment purposes, for a laugh. Since Masons know from their own experience that anti-Masonic material is not true, it would certainly not change our beliefs.

What interests me, however, is why some people who are not Masons are prone to believe the anti-Masons instead of us. We calmly and rationally answer all of their questions, but many seem to prefer the wild imaginations of the other side. Perhaps the truth is boring, and they prefer the excitement of make believe, I don't know.

But in any case, if you look at what the anti-Masons claim closely, you will always find circular reasoning that falls apart under scrutiny. Something like "this is the secret of the top level Masons, the lower levels don't know anything about it".

Anyone who makes such a statement would obviously be as naive as he is gullible. If this "secret" is only known to "high level Masons", how does he himself know about it, when actual Masons do not?

He may then claim to have read it in a book by a "high level Mason" like Pike or Hall or Mackey (anti-Masons always make Masonic authors they like "high level Masons", while those they don't use in their propaganda they call "dupes").

But this argument also falls completely apart. If Pike or Hall or Mackey had some sort of great super-secret for "high level Masons", why would they all publish it in books (and spend hundreds of pages dissecting and examing their various ideas)?

This is why I say that anti-Masonry was a scam when it started, and it remains a scam today. People use it as a modern type of yellow journalism, and folks who like to read the National Enquirer will often fall for it. There are big bucks in anti-Masonry and other such things, as there's always some pious Chicken Little who believes the world is coming to an end, and will shell out ten or fifteen bucks for an anti-Masonic book or tape that will make them feel like they're right. As P.T. Barnum once said, there's a sucker born every minute.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Trinityman

Hi

I am somewhat puzzled by some of the responses that I read on this board regarding the Masons(from the Masons).

I'm sorry to hear that. I'll see if I can shed any light on the situation.

I probably undersold my hand quite a bit about what I know about Masons.

That's an interesting comment. Why would you do such a thing? I think it is important to be entirely transparent otherwise one could be accused of having a hidden agenda. Come to think of it, I have been accused of having a hidden agenda anyway so perhaps it doesn't matter

. Either way, I'd be grateful if you could elaborate on the additional knowledge you hold - it is very difficult to hold a genuine debate on a subject when one half is 'holding back'.

I realize that you are bound to secrecy in most of these responses, but what bothers me is, doesn't some of that bother you.

I am not bound by secrecy in any way. I have promised not to reveal the modes of recognition and I won't, but I have consistently answered all questions asked of me, notwithstanding fast-moving threads where I might have missed something. So what exactly do you think I might be bothered by?

Also when you read some of this, as you call it, anti Mason stuff, doesn't that make you question what you believe?

About freemasonry? Absolutely not. Much of the anti-masonic postings are either

(a) assumptions based on someone elses false views,

(b) genuinely held but wrong views about the Craft based on a misinterpretation of scripture and a misunderstanding of what freemasonry is all about, or

(c) a confusion between freemasons and freemasonry.

If someone has a problem with freemasonry that makes sense based on the reality of the organization then there is an opportunity to discuss that. Freemasonry isn't perfect, and the biggest (genuine) critics are to be found within the fraternity itself. Just visit any of the masonic discussion boards to see what bugs masons. I understand the viewpoints of spiritual incompatibility, and of concerns of masonic influence in government, but when I am told that I am taught astral travelling (for example) in freemasonry then I'm afraid I start to lose interest in the discussion because there is no common ground between my viewpoint and experiences and those kinds of claims.

Trinityman,

Thanks for being so candid. I know what's bugging me. I can tell your heart is as big as the state of Texas, but I know you are on the wrong path. For some reason that has been bothering me. It's like looking out the window and seeing someones house on fire and not being able to do anything about it.

Something just doesn't fit right. When you make a statement like," I understand the viewpoints of spiritual incompatibility", that just doesn't fit.
If you understand that, doesn't that bother you? If not, do you really understand?

I had planned on just keeping a low profile and just kind of picking up a few things in this forum, but when I see the quality of people in here, I just had to make a thread. Anyway, give some thought to this spiritual incompatibility that you mentioned and hope good things for you. I'm sure I'll run into you later.

Sun

Sun Matrix

Thanks for the kind comments.

I really ought to clarify my comments on 'religious incompatability'. The main complaints against freemasonry from some Christians is either that there is a masonic God, or that freemasonry somehow encourages Christian members to pray to another god. There are other complaints too, but the reason I am not bothered by any of them is that they are untrue.

My words were meant to convey the following... "As a Christian, I understand where you are coming from. Why do you not understand where I am coming from?" I suspect it may because you have closed your mind to the possibility that freemasonry is not all that its (Christian) critics claim.

I recognize that it is virtually impossible to 'prove' anything on a discussion forum. However I'm not here to necessarily 'change your mind' about freemasonry - it's not for everyone and it's far more important that you come to Jesus than come to lodge. I [am here to give an alternative viewpoint, the viewpoint of an individual with mine own views on many things who just happens to be a freemason. I am also a Christian, a husband, a father, a son, an employee. I have an interest in Space, technology, architecture, history, genealogy, politics and (yes) conspiracy theories to name but a few.

And I just REFUSE to stay in my nicely-labelled box.