Palestinian PM: If Israel Withdraws To '67 Borders, We'll Establish Peace In Stages

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I have explained to you many times how the Arab world uses the Arab Palestinians as political tools and human weapons. I have also, as well as others, explained to you how the '67 War was not a sneakl attack, and you know this.

Thomas Crowne how have you proved at all Israel didnt start the attack in 1967 with the full intent of stealing the land it did?

If Egypt blocking a TRADE route is an act of war, then what do you consider what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians, blocking them from free travel, not letting them enter/leave there own country not letting them trade thru boarders..

Thomas Crowne maybe you could amuse us all by attempting to justify these crimes against the Palestinians?

Originally posted by jmilici
I do not want to get caught in the argument but this needs to be asked.

Can anybody in Isreal actually trace thier lineage to one of the twelve tribes?

Of course! For example try to be at the Kotel (Western Wall) during the Birkat Cohanim (Priestly Blessing) and you can see crowds of them.

Originally posted by jmilici

If they can, then they have a right to land there.

Oh, you would like to change the rights of citizenship in Israel? Unfortunately you are not entiteld to do so.

Israel's Nationality Law relates to anyone wishing to settle in Israel, as well as those already residing or born there, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex or political beliefs.

Citizenship may be acquired by:

Birth

The Law of Return

Residence

Naturalization

Originally posted by jmilici

Then, the day before my Bar mitzva, when I was done studying with the Cantor my last teacher pulled me in to her office and said no, most if not all Isrealis cannot trace thier lineage back to the twelve tribes.

Wow.

It took you that long to find out, that Ruth the grand-grand mother of King David converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed? (See See Ruth 1:16,)

Originally posted by jmilici

She then proceeded to tell me if anyone found out that she told me this, she would loose her job.

Must be a funny school where you have been in.

Traditionally, Jews all over the world read the Megillat Ruth on the second day of Shavuot, so everybody knows pretty well about converts to Judaism.

That is much better than trying to assert factual errors while politically flame-baiting while demanding questions be answered at your time line rahter than as this conversation naturally progresses.

Factual errors?
Please point one out...
And I am free to ask any questions I like, so long as they are relevant to the topic. This is a discussion board, not your private lecture platform, mod or not.

Do you deny that there were people living in an area called Palestine before the creation of Israel? Or was it a barren area totally devoid of human life before Jewish refugees from European persecution started showing up?

If a two state solution is not an acceptable compromise, there are a limited number of alternative options. You clearly don't favor a two state solution, so what do you think ought to be done instead? It's a perfectly legitimate question, and entirely relevant to the topic.

No, I will not. I will post as I post, and your answers will be given. As I said, you won't barge in and demand the tempo be changed by such a post.

Relax, I am sure they'll all come to light.
Back to the long knucle-pound in progress, now don't speak to me again until I get through and find bandaids for my fingers!

Riwka theres no need to fly that zionist flag below your posts, its easy to see your a jew after reading all those blatent lies about Israel...

Israel does not let anyone settle in its country, that just one of its BS lies aimed at tricking the international community into believing Israel is the poor victim, Israel, home of the jews who see themselves as above all others, Ever since ignoring then murdering there prophet, they have made up there own supremacist BS religion of lies. Why should i respect jews at all when they class me my family and almost everyone i know as sub human? That is why there will never be peace, not until the zionist jews realise they are the SAME as everyone, not chosen by god or special in any way but there abilities to lie and decieve.

JudahMaccabbi

Yes, I am for real. As far as the lineage is concerned, I will look at the links you posted. If I am wrong I will admit it.

As far as the palestianians are concerned I will stand behind my statement though. I talked many times with them about it and have seen them cry and pray for the victims. I am not talking out of my arse here. I will believe actual people and thier actions over a poll any day.

And an old family friend back in I think 88' moved to isreal. When he moved there he was given, yes given a house on 3/4 acre. All he had to do was pay taxes, (which by the way were discounted) I am not sure in what settlement but was given, all for moving and settling in Isreal. My parents never admitted to it but I think he tried to talk my parents into it as well.

I do not know why but I feel compelled to let you know that I am no longer a practicing Jew. As a matter of fact, I do not practice any religion. After living for 31 years and seing all this non-sensicle killing in the name of religion(all religions) or G-D I have a problem following any one of them.

Originally posted by HiddenReality

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I have explained to you many times how the Arab world uses the Arab Palestinians as political tools and human weapons. I have also, as well as others, explained to you how the '67 War was not a sneakl attack, and you know this.

Thomas Crowne how have you proved at all Israel didnt start the attack in 1967 with the full intent of stealing the land it did?

If Egypt blocking a TRADE route is an act of war, then what do you consider what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians, blocking them from free travel, not letting them enter/leave there own country not letting them trade thru boarders..

Thomas Crowne maybe you could amuse us all by attempting to justify these crimes against the Palestinians?

Your refusal to recognize anything but simple reality (it isn't hidden, you just refuise it as you don't like it) doesn't mean I haven't made it clear enough to understand.

As far as the Palestinians, I am in the process of writing a new thread, rather than allowing this one to be hijacked by an off-topic discussion.

Stand by, and when I am done, I will give you the link. See, this is my attempt of leading by example in regard to being somewhat on-topic.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Nothing you said disproved that the 1967 Israel attack was not a sneak attack.
Israel attacked first, and they sneaked when they did it.
There were reasons for the sneak attack, but there always are.
You did well to explain some of the reasons why Israel invaded in a sneak attack, but did nothing to excuse it.

Would you consider the present 'occupation' to be legitimate had the Egyptian armoured coloums crossed into Israel and raised a few jewish cities ?
The difference in the exact time of attack doesnt negate the intentions of the parties involved. I would think that you know all this as most of it has been explained already in great detail yet you choose not to accept it.
Whether Israel attacked or Egypt, war was inevitable in 1967. The results that followed the war were due to the strategies of the individual nations.
Israel's drive to survive and the Egytpian drive to destroy, of these the former was evidently greater and thus the result.

Well, all these off-topic conversations aside, I would like to ask everyone in this thread a question...

What demands would you make of Palestine to return to the 1967 lines, or what conditions would you make of Palestine for the establishment of a state within the Gaza Strip and limited portions of the West Bank?

Surely, you can't expect a military occupation going on forever, plus, these are a people without a state.

Here's the hard part, answer it without advocating genocide.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Well, all these off-topic conversations aside, I would like to ask everyone in this thread a question...

What demands would you make of Palestine to return to the 1967 lines, or what conditions would you make of Palestine for the establishment of a state within the Gaza Strip and limited portions of the West Bank?

Surely, you can't expect a military occupation going on forever, plus, these are a people without a state.

Here's the hard part, answer it without advocating genocide.

Easy, stop killing in the name of palestine and G-D.

And no I do not mean find other reason to kill either. Do not want my words to get twisted.

[edit on 26-2-2006 by jmilici]

Ok, the Jewish Occupation of Arab Lands is that! SMaller then RHode Island, compared to larger then Texas, Texas being Arab and Rhode Island being Jewish, what the heck kind of occupation is that?

Also, haven't they done this before? "Give us these lands and we'll stop." Two days later... "BOOM! Kill all those evil Jewish 4 year olds on school buses who suppress us! Bam Bam Bam, shoot up that evil Jewish Old Folks home where those evil 80 year old jewish people suppress us live!"

How come they never go after the military? Only kids, women, and old people? ANyways, on Palestinians...

My brother is so fat it takes two suicide bombs to blow himself up.

[edit on 26-2-2006 by DevinS]

jmilici,

I do not want to sound racist because it is not a racial issue but a cultural one. Arabs tend to tell you what you want to here. It is not because they are liars but because they are culturally tuned to being socially correct. Arabs are very warm people and this makes them both very nice socially and mean when you get on their bad side. I have encountered many Arabs who tell me to my face one thing and generally it is what I want to hear (be it in university in the US, in Israel with Palestinians or in the Sinai on vacation). On the other hand I know (or sensed) that in different social circles they'd say something else. When I say this I am talking about the commoners not their political leaders who are very admant about their views. Therefore, do not always believe what you are told. People from different cultures view differently their social obligations. Israelis are generally 'in your face' honest which seems to frighten people. It is a cultural thing - no one way is better it is just the way it is.

In 88 prices where much cheaper in Israel then they are now so it is possible that in 88s prices land seemed like nothing. It is possible today to get land for really cheap but it is in very remote locations and under a list of conditions.

I am sorry to here that you are not a practicing Jew although you stlll write G-D which is a Jewish thing. I myself am relatively secular but with plenty of respect for Judaism. Judaism like every religion has flavors and sometimes people seem to have more of an appeal to one flavor than the other. In Israel, seeing historical Jewish sites, reading about archeological finds and Jewish history fascinates me. Hearing stories about the sacrifices Jews made (friends, family and friends families) throughout history in order to retain their Jewish heritage and religion is what pushes me to believe and practice, however minimally, so that I can pass it on to my children.

On another off note - Some of Israel's enemies are also historically Jews without their knowledge (the ex-Taliban regime are part of the Pashtun tribes which have uniquely Jewish traditions and are decendants of one of the ten lost tribes, it is also speculated that some modern day Syrians, Palestinians, Saudis and Iranians are historically Jews who were forced to convert).

this sounds like a good plan!

it will finally force ISRAEL to make concessions in one of the compromises

Originally posted by Jamuhn
What demands would you make of Palestine to return to the 1967 lines, or what conditions would you make of Palestine for the establishment of a state within the Gaza Strip and limited portions of the West Bank?

I dont really understand the question but here goes anyway;
The conditions/policies that Palestine must be under:
1. Accept the Jews right to exsist.
2. Accept the exsistence of the Israeli state and its borders as legitimate.
3. Accept that terrorism is integral part of Palestinian ideology and move towards alienating such elements and acting as per international laws.
4. Seperate the ideology of a Palestine state from that of religion.
5. Speed up economic and social progress and wean away people from fundamental ideologies.
6. Accept the Jewish right to Jeruselem and grant Jews rights to other religious sites across Palestine

These are basicaly a broad idea of what they need to be forced into accepting so that a new PA state might be established with the exsisting areas. As for the pre-1967 Palestinian state, that will remain a distant dream as that state died in 1967.

Perhaps what the most puzzling thing about the Palestinians is why they dont go and settle in Jordan, Syria or any of the many wealthy arab nations in their vicinity if life is truly so hard for them in Palestine? Is it right to condemn generations to a life of misery and destitution for some idillic vision, a hope against hope ?

JudahMaccabbi

I do agree with your last post, especially the last section.

I do need to make this quick, I need to go for now.

I need to say that I was lucky enough to get close enough to see them with friends and other family members talking about the crisis as well as other issues. Never once, either of use did we ever hold back on feelings. We are no longer in contact, for about 15 years now but when it came to that I for some reason always believed them. I never once got the feeling they were telling me what I wanted to hear. Although I could be wrong I was young and naive at the time.

Yeah the way I write G-D, for some reason that has been something that has always stuck with me. I believe it is a respect thing. I never actually gave it much thought. Although I do not follow religion I still love & respect Him. I just show it in different ways as apposed to gowing to temple and celebrating the Sabbath. I try to live my life,(morals, values, the way I treat other people, etc..) the way I think He wants me too not only for Him but myself as well. Although to this day I do things that I know He disapproves of, but I am only human and still growing and learning (and still love to have a good time if you know what I mean)

Love thy neighbor, no matter who they are or what they believe in.

I think I have been off topic long enough. By for now.

Perhaps what the most puzzling thing about the Palestinians is why they dont go and settle in Jordan, Syria or any of the many wealthy arab nations in their vicinity if life is truly so hard for them in Palestine?

Would you leave your homeland just because someone was making life hard?

Many have left and not returned because of the Israeli occupation.

I think the real question you are asking is how bad does Israel have to get before the Ethnic Cleansing of four million people happens....

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
this sounds like a good plan!

it will finally force ISRAEL to make concessions in one of the compromises

Funny, why is it that Israel needs to conceed? The problematic points about a settlement in general seems to be that:
A- Palestinians do not agree to forgo with their 'right to return' which effectively means to allow every Palestinians, who wishes to do so, residence and citizenry in pre-1967 Israel. This in essence means the demographic annhilation of the Jewish homeland.
B- Palestinians want the Jews most holy site - the temple mount. Palestinians have already destroyed archeological artifacts from the time of the first temple in attempt to build an additional mosque in the area.
C- Palestinians never effectively showed their commitment to peace. Other that the late Netanyahu era and the early Barak era terrorism was rampant with no effective attempt by Palestinians to curb the terror campaign.
maybe the Palestians should conceed on these issues. It is quite obvious that a Jewish state is unviable with 'right to return'. Jews cannot accept ceceeding the temple mount with no say on the matter and without wholehearted commitment to peace and fighting terrorism what good is peace?
D- PM Ehud Barak agreed to concessions that included over 90% of the West Bank, all of Gaza but this was rejected and all the while Yassir Arafat suggested nothing!

In conclusion, in order to make peace both sides need to make concessions. Some issues cannot be conceeded though. In light of the above the only concessions that need to be made in order to arrive at peace are the Palestinian demands for the annhilation of the Jewish State through the right to return needs to be removed. Sharing the temple mount with Jews needs to be enacted, stop terror aggression (militarily, religiously, verbally and economically).
Israel already agreed to enough concessions and, in general, I do not accept all those concessions but the decision is not mine to make.

A- Palestinians do not agree to forgo with their 'right to return' which effectively means to allow every Palestinians, who wishes to do so, residence and citizenry in pre-1967 Israel. This in essence means the demographic annhilation of the Jewish homeland.

You are neglecting the compensation possibility.

Israel stole the land from almost a million people, and should provide compensation.

The refused to allow them to re-enter Israel, and become citizens in defiance of UN Resolutions.

Of course, it would be America footing the bill, but it should be done.

B- Palestinians want the Jews most holy site - the temple mount.

Al Aqsa is there now.

They want what is theirs.

And there is some debate as to what is the true site of the ancient Temple of Israel.

No doubt where the Dome of the Rock is though....

C- Palestinians never effectively showed their commitment to peace.

And Israel never withdrew.

You expect them to not fight for their freedom?

There were many long periods without violence, but never one where the Palestinians were free.

D- PM Ehud Barak agreed to concessions that included over 90% of the West Bank, all of Gaza but this was rejected and all the while Yassir Arafat suggested nothing!

That was no offer, it was attempted Armed robbery.

Israel gave themselves a Veto in the Palestinian government, an endless free lease over the entire Jordan valley, Control over the borders, Control of Al Aqsa, and numerous other things not compatible with Sovereignty.

If Israel had truely offered a full withdraw, and full independence Arafat would have accepted.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Would you leave your homeland just because someone was making life hard?

Just look at history, there are examples of migration everywhere. People leaving for better pastures from places of hardship, take the jews for example, they moved all over the world and spread themselves when remaining in "palestine" was too difficult. America is another prime example. Many nations are better off today due to this sort of immigration than the would have been had this not occured.

The conditions in palestine are not simply 'hard' but wreched to say the least. Life is hell because the Palestinians have made it hell. The palestinians have turned it out to be about religion when it was about people. Granted excesses were made on both sides but the palestinians today are living for a dream that will almost never be possible. Even if the US doesnt support Israel anymore militarily, Israel has enough industry and military might to stand for itself. Plus they are nuclear !
Israeli popluation has grown so large now that even if the Israeli govt wanted they wouldnt be able to return all these detainees. Plus these detainees wont be able to integrate into Israeli society anymore. They have to face facts and realize that their situation will not get any better for no matter how long they fight. Rather than condemn their entire people to lives of misery, the wisest thing would be to cut their losses and build on what is left.

I think the real question you are asking is how bad does Israel have to get before the Ethnic Cleansing of four million people happens....

I am sure you know that this is an impossibility. There are Jews still alive today that know what 'Ethnic Cleansing' really means and I am sure the generations that have come after them are wise enought to learn about this.

As for the 'bad' of Israel, if you mean acts like Israel's pullout form Gaza then at the rate the Palestinians are going, I doubt we will see much more of the same in the future.

The truth is you can't trust Muslims. You can't make peace with them until they leave the Caliphate mentality. Byzantium signed a peace treaty with Arabs 5 centuries ago, and they paid the price in a sneak attack. Never trust Islam. May Constantinople be a lesson for the Israelis, a lesson on how Islam will lie, slander, and force it's victims into a bogus false peace/ covenant of death, then kill and enslave everybody in treachery. Don't make the same mistake of Christendom, you don't want the tall beautiful buildings of Tel Aviv converted into dirt pits 50 years from now (in the same fashion Constantinople, jewel of the East was turned into a land of slime and mud huts after the slaughter). Learn the lesson- no peace until they are serious.


[edit on 26-2-2006 by Nakash]