Palestinian PM: If Israel Withdraws To '67 Borders, We'll Establish Peace In Stages

Originally posted by Seekerof

What I advocate is something that has been put forth by the Bush Adminstrations Middle east policy makers, and that is that Palestine, Israel, and the UN simply accept the boundry lines as they currently are (with Gaza going to Palestine, as well), with the disputed Jerusalem becoming a UN protectorate and neither Israel or Palestine having any boundry claim to Jerusalem. Further, refugees will only return to the newly recognized state of Palestine.

This was about the sanest offering from the Zionist Front.

But I really doubt Israel would agree to this.

[edit on 26-2-2006 by ArchAngel]

Originally posted by ArchAngel


The Palestinians have been denied freedom for two generations

The Palestinians can say Thank You for this to their arab brothers:

After the 1967 war, an unmistakable response came from Khartoum, Sudan's capital, where Arab leaders issued a resolution on September 1, 1967 announcing the three noes:

no peace

no recognition

no negotiation

We have to see if a HAMAS-led government in the PA will be different and able to fulfill the benchmark that was set for them by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan:

Hamas has to

1. lcease its terror activity
   
   
2. recognize Israel
   
   
3. honor agreements existing between Israel and the Palestinians renounce terror and
   
   
4. change its platform calling for the destruction of Israel
   

ArchAngel, I have explained to you many times how the Arab world uses the Arab Palestinians as political tools and human weapons. I have also, as well as others, explained to you how the '67 War was not a sneakl attack, and you know this.
You know what I'll do? I'll create a thread somewhere, maybe in polical conspiracies, and I'll make it perfectly clear. Maybe also I'll make a list of every thread where you mentioned the "sneak attack", whether it is relevant or not, and illustrate how this myth has been explained away.

Please, rather than expect the same things to be explained to you in thread after thread, go and read the dozens of threads that have covered this, even if it was not relevant to the topic.
In the meantime, I will start knucklepounding the keyboard ONE MORE TIME and post something in political conspiracies for you.
I'm glad I got a full 8 hours of sleep last night since you plan on putting me to work first thing in the morning.

It just might be relvant to this thread!

AA!!!! I am very proud of you! You found a thread it is pertinent to!!



Sorry about the outburst, I'm just tickled about the occurance.

Back to the job you gave me, sir.

I have also, as well as others, explained to you how the '67 War was not a sneakl attack, and you know this.

As I have explained to you many times it was a Sneak Attack.

You just don't like the term.

Israel attacked first, and they did not stand up and say 'hey guys, we're attacking now!'.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Would Israel then withdraw from all the territories s

What do you think, why do we have e.g. Oslo agreements?




Or Taba, or Camp David or the Road Map?

[edit on 26-2-2006 by Riwka]

I got a great idea, build a massive wall 12 feet high all around the "occupied" areas.
Then evacuate everyone from them.
Then fill the area inside the wall with water.
Call it the Great Lake of Occupation

This makes about as much sense as Israel giving up their land to a nonexistant Palestine.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
As I have explained to you many times it was a Sneak Attack.
You just don't like the term.

Israel attacked first, and they did not stand up and say 'hey guys, we're attacking now!'.

Lets assume you are right.
Good for Israel, they won.
Why in god's name should they give land back to the losers?

Originally posted by mrjones

Lets assume you are right.
Good for Israel, they won.
Why in god's name should they give land back to the losers?

Why should Saddam have given back Kuwait?

The difference being that Saddam was going to give citizenship to the Kuwaiti people.

Saddam was more within his rights, and more generous that Israel.

Try putting the shoe on the other foot.

It hurts the feet, but opens the eyes so that you can see the other side.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Originally posted by mrjones

Lets assume you are right.
Good for Israel, they won.
Why in god's name should they give land back to the losers?

Why should Saddam have given back Kuwait?

The difference being that Saddam was going to give citizenship to the Kuwaiti people.

Saddam was more within his rights, and more generous that Israel.

Try putting the shoe on the other foot.

It hurts the feet, but opens the eyes so that you can see the other side.

no, it just hurts the foot...

I do not want to get caught in the argument but this needs to be asked.

Can anybody in Isreal actually trace thier lineage to one of the twelve tribes? If they can, then they have a right to land there. But, most of the isreali's can not.

When I was going through hebrew school, I pissed a lot of teachers off by asking that very same question. Then, the day before my Bar mitzva, when I was done studying with the Cantor my last teacher pulled me in to her office and said no, most if not all Isrealis cannot trace thier lineage back to the twelve tribes. They are nothing more that converts to the religion. She then proceeded to tell me if anyone found out that she told me this, she would loose her job.

I also know that as a jew I could go to isreal and get a house and land, almost for nothing. But I never will, why? Becouse I can not trace my lineage back to a tribe. I do not belong there.

Please let me also mention that I do not agree with how the palestianians are handling this matter either. I truthfully think both sides have a lot of growing up to do. I have also had a couple of palestianan friends while growing up in New York and they told me that most of thier people are willing to live peacfully with the Isreali's, in Isreal. They just want peace. But unfortunately these people are drowned out by the few who do not want peace, from both sides. The majority of average joe palestianians just want to live thier lives without constraints, like you and me.

These same people cry every time there is a suicide bomb because they feel it sets them back. They also cry for the victim's of the attack. To them it is sensless murder and to them this is not what G-D wants. And in my opinion it makes the palestianan people as a whole look bad when in reality it is only a small percentage doing it.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Why should Saddam have given back Kuwait?

There are so many differences to the situation PA/Israel, that it is rediculous to compare this...


In the case of the West Bank (and Gaza) no internationally recognized sovereign control previously existed.

Describing The Territories as "Palestinian" or as "stolen land" may serve the political agenda of one side in the dispute, but represents a total denial of Israel's fundamental rights.

Under UN Res 242, Israel is only expected to withdraw "from territories" to "secure and recognized boundaries" and not from "the territories" or "all the territories" captured in the Six-Day War.

Taken together with UN Res. 338, it becomes clear that only negotiations would determine which portion of these territories would eventually become "Israeli territories" or territories to be retained by Israel's Arab counterpart.

The sooner HAMAS recognizes his nmegotiation partner Israel[/color and fulfills the above mentioned benchmaks set by the U.N., the U.S. and the EU, negotiations can begin

Ok, good, I don't have to write about that. You are aware of the fact that Israel had sustained over 100 raids against her between the start of the war and 1965, you are aware of the fact that Syria had attacked Israel in April, in which Israel shot down Syrian planes.
The Soviets gave the Syrians bad intel that the Israelis were building up the armies at the Syrian border, preparing for and attack, and you are also aware that the Israelis strongly denied this.

I have no doubt that you are aware that Syria invoked the defense treaty they had with Egypt, and you are aware that Egypt and Syria massed around Israel.
I also know that you know that after Nasser demanded the U.N. forces out of the Sinai, the Voice of Arabs aired this:
As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence

You know that the Syrians loved that proclamation, as they aired this:
Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation

You are aware that Egypt then shut down all traffic to Eliat, Israel's sea-pgoing connection ot the world, by not allowing traffic headed there to pass through the Suez canal. You know this was an act of starvation.

I have no doubt that you are totally aware that after this move, Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt, and afterward, Nasser made this statement:
The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations

Hey, I KNOW you are aware that the leader of Iraq even piped up and said, The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

I have no doubt that you know that Israel's forces have been on alert for nearly a month, and that Israel's forces is, in actuality, its population as it is a very small nation, unable to keep wartime footing for very long, whereas her neighbors who have much larger populations and armies.

The declaration of war had been made, the intention of removing Israel from, the map had been stated, and all the assets necessary to do so had been put in place.

Now, as I have outlined this very clearly, and have typed just about the same thing repeatedly, I can say this with no uncertainty if you type that the '67 War was started because of an Israeli sneak attack: You are stating a known lie in the attempt to spread propaganda and disinformation which is contrary to historical documentation and easily-gotten fact. I would like to think that you are simply operating under bad information and that you now see the error of your continuous mantra in always attempting to call the '67 War a "sneak Attack", but, as this has been stated time and again, I kinda doubt it.

Now, I will go and put together something something for the Arab Palestinian plight and how their "brothers" are the ones who cause their problems.

Also, here is a very good outline, much better than mine, that was assembled in the poster's usual, factual manner:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 26-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

I wonder how enthusiastic our rightwingers would be if a group of immigrants started moving to a Western country en masse, declared their own country, and kicked out the people who'd been living there before at gunpoint...

Beyond all the rhetoric that's essentially what Israel is, to the Arabs.

As for the "Palestinians don't exist" canard, what a lame rhetorical trick. There was a place called Palestine, whether it was a full fledged nation state or not. There were people living there. The people living there were called "Palestinians" - duh.

Now, Israel is a fait accompli, it exists and will continue to exist.
However they're never going to have peace unless they come to some kind of arrangement with the Palestinians - OTOH the Palestinians' lives will never improve if they can't work out some kind of compromise with the Israelis.

I still think Hamas's election victory is an opportunity to defang the fanatics, or rather let them defang themselves. After Hamas is in power for a while, and the Palestinians see that they're making things worse, not better, the electorate will turn on them just like they did on Fatah.

Again I ask a question the rightwingers never seem to want to answer - other than a two-state solution, what do you propose as a solution? Continued military occupation? Expulsion of all Arabs from the West Bank & Gaza? Industrial scale genocide? Maybe the Israelis need to stock up on Zyklon B?

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Why should Saddam have given back Kuwait?
The difference being that Saddam was going to give citizenship to the Kuwaiti people.

Why should he have given it back ?
The USA opened a huge can of Whup'ss that's why !!
And add to that a shamefull defeat that saw the US troops within a day's distance of Bagdad with nothing to stop them.
okay, how in the world can you compare Iraq/Kuwait and Israel/PA ? They are so different that its something akin to comparing Gandhi and Pol Pot !!

Saddam was more within his rights, and more generous that Israel.

Oh really ? Attacking a nation and pillaging its populace is well within his rights ? Tariq Aziz himself admitted that had they captured the Emir of Kuwait they would have 'done things to him that are not proper' ! As for development:
I guess Saddam turned the dust bowl that was former Kuwait into the sprawling metropolis that they have today ?
Or maybe brought them free healthcare, education, water, electricity, ... in essence 'civilization' to the Kuwaitis ?


[edit on 26-2-2006 by IAF101]

Now, as I have outlined this very clearly, and have typed just about the same thing repeatedly, I can say this with no uncertainty if you type that the '67 War was started because of an Israeli sneak attack:

Nothing you said disproved that the 1967 Israel attack was not a sneak attack.

Israel attacked first, and they sneaked when they did it.

There were reasons for the sneak attack, but there always are.

You did well to explain some of the reasons why Israel invaded in a sneak attack, but did nothing to excuse it.

It was a hostile action that does not justify the continued occupation.

To say they more than four million people should be denied sovereignty just because Israel knew Arab nations were going to attack almost 40 years ago is below weak.

Spend less time justifying the illegal occupation, and more time considering alternatives that don't include ethnic cleansing.

xmotex, if you throw in "rightwinger" one more time, that will cost you a polical troll warn, which is pretty expensive. Heed the warning.
I think maybe your questions will be answered if you simply sit back, keep your political baiting to yourself and read what comes along, if you prefer not to do the research yourself. That is much better than trying to assert factual errors while politically flame-baiting while demanding questions be answered at your time line rahter than as this conversation naturally progresses.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I will continue my response to the Arab Palestinian plight question Arch Angel asked.

xmotexut a gun to your head and I tell you that I am about toblow your brains out and you sucker-punch me, that was not a sneak attack on your part. You are being EXTREMELY intellectually dishonest in order to pervert the truth, and you are FULLY aware of this. No rational or sane man could think otherwise, and you know this. Nothing has ever led me to believe that you are not sane, so my belief is the only logical one.

The West Bank was not a state called Palestine before the war, so declaring that it must be made as such now has no merit. Not that it cannot be done, but it has no merit.
By the way, Rather than throwing rocks at the Israelis (Pardon the Arab Palestinian reference made by accident), you might think about being glad that the Israelis didn't decide to annex that land that was taken during defensive actions.

Back to the Palestinian Plight knuckle-pound.
I should do this with PodPeopleCasting; this writing is killing my three typing fingers!

PS, you might want to explaion the "ethnic cleansing" charge, as I see evidence of Arabs ALL OVER the Middle East.
Thanks in advance for your explanation.

[edit on 26-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

The West Bank was not a state called Palestine before the war, so declaring that it must be made as such now has no merit. Not that it cannot be done, but it has no merit.

The West Bank was not a part of Israel at any time before the 1967 Sneak Attack so Israel occupying it has no merit.

Israel has not at any time offered citizenship to the people of this land so their presence has no merit.

Originally posted by jmilici
I do not want to get caught in the argument but this needs to be asked.

Can anybody in Isreal actually trace thier lineage to one of the twelve tribes? If they can, then they have a right to land there. But, most of the isreali's can not.

When I was going through hebrew school, I pissed a lot of teachers off by asking that very same question. Then, the day before my Bar mitzva, when I was done studying with the Cantor my last teacher pulled me in to her office and said no, most if not all Isrealis cannot trace thier lineage back to the twelve tribes. They are nothing more that converts to the religion. She then proceeded to tell me if anyone found out that she told me this, she would loose her job.

I also know that as a jew I could go to isreal and get a house and land, almost for nothing. But I never will, why? Becouse I can not trace my lineage back to a tribe. I do not belong there.

Please let me also mention that I do not agree with how the palestianians are handling this matter either. I truthfully think both sides have a lot of growing up to do. I have also had a couple of palestianan friends while growing up in New York and they told me that most of thier people are willing to live peacfully with the Isreali's, in Isreal. They just want peace. But unfortunately these people are drowned out by the few who do not want peace, from both sides. The majority of average joe palestianians just want to live thier lives without constraints, like you and me.

These same people cry every time there is a suicide bomb because they feel it sets them back. They also cry for the victim's of the attack. To them it is sensless murder and to them this is not what G-D wants. And in my opinion it makes the palestianan people as a whole look bad when in reality it is only a small percentage doing it.

Are you for real????

I stopped even trying to respond to Arch angel since he seemed to be locked into his mindset without ever even attempting to question the vast historical inconsistencies in his arguements. I've seen this kind of mindset already and it is hopeless.

Now for you. As a Jew who studied in a provate Jewish school in the states we were never taught this. On the other hand, from personal discussions with friends I found out that there is a feeling amonst Ashkenazi Jews that they (Ashkenazi Jews) are not historical Jews. I am a Sephardic Jew from Uzbeki/Iranian backgroud so I was never exposed to this.
On the bright side there were genetic tests that were done of Jews from all areas around the world. IT was uncovered that virtually all Jews share common genetic markers on the Y chromosome with non-Jewish populations of the middle east (Noteably the palestinians) meaning that they share similar paltrilinear ancestry (Abraham?)-

See this and

Regarding Ashkenasi Jews it has been determined that those Jews seem top be authentic jews from that finding. see www.csulb.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink">this as well.

TO kill off any additional feelings of
fraud you may have here is another study regarding the similarity between Jewish groups.
Hope this settles that.

One more point that seems to bother me is the statement that says that palestinians are saddened when an Israeli is killed. A poll conducted among Palestinians showed that the vast majority approved of suicide killings of Jewish civilians as pointed out by Riwka (I think it was her) in previous posts.

Finally you said that as a Jew you can have a house and land for almost nothing. I live in Israel. Try to buy a house in Tel-Aviv of Jerusalem and see how much land you can get there. This is very far from true. A small new 4 room apartment in a medeocre sub-urban area around Tel-Aviv (Hod hasharon, Yehud, Kyriat Ono) can run you around $250K. In my book that is expensive.