Palestinian PM: If Israel Withdraws To '67 Borders, We'll Establish Peace In Stages

Originally posted by ArchAngel
They are not asking that one group be given power over another.

They are asking for all to have their own representation, and for Israel to have a border.

Draw a line, and allow citizenship and equal rights for everyone.

Its hard for them to come out and say it so the Zionists dance around the issue, but everyone knows they lust the land the Palestinians are on, and if the world turned its back for an instant they would drive millions of people into the Dead Sea.

You got it backwards, Israel has bent over backwards to help Palestine.
Palestine is the one that wants Israel destroied.
Palestine is the one that wants to push Israel into the sea, the Mediterranean Sea.

Israel wants peace, Palestine wants MORE LAND, Israel gives up the gaza strip for peace, Palestine wants MORE LAND.
When Israel gives up more land Palestine will want more and more and more.
They will not stop until Israel is no more.

Deny it all you want, but this is what everyone knows Palestine wants.

Exactly. Give me a friggin break, this is Hamas for Pete's sakes, they say something which would put a smile on a Peaceniks mind to the West, then say this crap to their constituency:

The following are excerpts from an address by Hamas leader Khaled Mash'al at the Al-Murabit Mosque in Damascus. The address was delivered following the Friday sermon at the mosque, and was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on February 3, 2006. To view this clip, visit: www.memritv.org... ]

"We say to this West, which does not act reasonably, and does not learn its lessons: By Allah, you will be defeated. You will be defeated in Palestine, and your defeat there has already begun. True, it is Israel that is being defeated there, but when Israel is defeated, its path is defeated, those who call to support it are defeated, and the cowards who hide behind it and support it are defeated. Israel will be defeated, and so will whoever supported or supports it.

"America will be defeated in Iraq. Wherever the [Islamic] nation is targeted, its enemies will be defeated, Allah willing. The nation of Muhammad is gaining victory in Palestine. The nation of Muhammad is gaining victory in Iraq, and it will be victorious in all Arab and Muslim lands.

'Their multitudes will be defeated and turn their backs [and flee].' These fools will be defeated, the wheel of time will turn, and times of victory and glory will be upon our nation, and the West will be full of remorse, when it is too late.

"They think that history has ended with them. They do not know that the law of Allah cannot be changed or replaced. 'You shall not find a substitute for the law of Allah. You shall not find any change to the law of Allah.' Today, the Arab and Islamic nation is rising and awakening, and it will reach its peak, Allah willing. It will be victorious. It will link the present to the past. It will open up the horizons of the future. It will regain the leadership of the world. Allah willing, the day is not far off.

"Don't you see that they believe they are capable of using democracy to deceive the people, but then democracy is turned against them? Don't you see that they are spending their money in efforts to block the way of Allah, to thwart Hamas, to defeat it, and to help those whom they want, but that [this plot] is turned against them? They are not acting reasonably.

"They do not understand the Arab or Muslim mentality.

"Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing. Apologize today, before remorse will do you no good. Our nation is moving forwards, and it is in your interest to respect a victorious nation.

"Our nation will be victorious. When it reaches the leadership of the world, and controls its own decisions, then it will prevent this overt interference [in our affairs], and its pillaging of natural resources, and will prevent these recurring offenses against our land, against our nation, and against our holy places - then you will regret it.

"Before Israel Dies, it Must Be Humiliated and Degraded"

Mash'al: "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day. America will be of no avail to them. Their generals will be of no avail to them. The last of their generals has been forgotten. Allah has made him disappear. He's over. Gone is that Sharon behind whose back they would hide and find shelter, and with whom they would feel relatively secure.

Today they have frail leaders, who don't even know where our Lord placed them.

"Allah willing, we will make them lose their eyesight, we will make them lose their brains.

"Israel has begun to sense that its superiority has come to an end. Its army, which has superior conventional weapons - the air force, the armored corps, and the missiles - there are no longer wars in which these are used.

Added to this the words reported by Arutz Sheva (08/02/2006):

Terrorism specialist Matthew Levitt writes of a Hamas "incitement machine" in the Winter 2004 Middle East Quarterly, describing, for instance, a kindergarten graduation run by a Hamas charitable association. The event "featured 1600 preschool age children wearing uniforms and carrying pretend rifles. A five-year-old girl reenacted attacks on Israelis by dipping her hands in red paint, mimicking the bloodied hands Palestinians proudly displayed after the lynching of two Israelis in Ramallah."

He describes an Islamic school in which "11-year-old Palestinian student Ahmed states, 'I will make my body a bomb that will blast the flesh of Zionists, the sons of pigs and monkeys ...I will tear their bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they will ever know.'"

Taken from the Golden Report.

...and to a crowd cheering "slaughter the Jews" in the background. 5 hours later, this same guy was talking to CNN about how Hamas "want's peace".

So AA, are you still sure Hamas want's peace? I know living in Iraq and being an Iraqi will give you a natural bias, but don't believe your own propaganda. Hamas (and Islam) want's to drive the Jews into the sea, form a Caliphate, then turn on Europe and America. Make no mistake, that is Hama's long term goal.



[edit on 25-2-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by Nakash
Hamas (and Islam) want's to drive the Jews into the sea, form a Caliphate, then turn on Europe and America. Make no mistake, that is Hama's long term goal.
[edit on 25-2-2006 by Nakash]

We may be giving them a little too much credit.
They are a poorly organized terrorist organization.
I have serious doubts as to their ability to run a country let alone make a stand against some of the most powerful nations on earth.

You got it backwards, Israel has bent over backwards to help Palestine.
Palestine is the one that wants Israel destroied.

Israel wants all the land from the Jordan to the Med, and some of the Israelies want all of the land from the Nile to the Euphratese river in Iraq.

Israel wants Palestine destroyed even if they don't openly say it.

Israel has bent over backwards to make the lives of the Palestinians as difficult as possible.

PLEASE tell us all one thing they have done to help them.

It is simply absurd to suggest that the occupier is the helper in this case.

Israel is the oppressor.

Originally posted by ArchAngel


Israel wants Palestine destroyed

Interesting statement, since today, there is no "Palestine".

Israel wants a two State resolution - but Hamas does not, as we all know.

Their true intentions are written in The Hamas Charter - and up to now, they refused to change it.


On the destruction of Israel:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (Preamble)

The call to jihad:

"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)

"Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)

Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:

"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement...

Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam...

There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

"Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)

Just look at the HAMAS emblem - and you know they want ALL.


Nothing has changed - just like the old days.








.

.

[edit on 26-2-2006 by Riwka]

At one point the Israel offered to put in sewers in for the Palestine's and the mayor refused the offer. He was afraid of being killed if he accepted the Jew's help, so raw sewage runs down the ditches.

I know this from a friend.

Roper

Originally posted by Roper
At one point the Israel offered to put in sewers in for the Palestine's and the mayor refused the offer. He was afraid of being killed if he accepted the Jew's help, so raw sewage runs down the ditches.

I know this from a friend.

Roper

Got a link to support it?

There are many wives tales from Israel.

Israel does nothing to help the Palestinian people.

And to the others, what does it matter that Palestine is not a 'nation'?

Israel has no plans on representing the people so they have no right occupying.

AA I can figure out from your posts you hate Isreal for whatever your reasons but how can you ignore Hamas' stated intention of wiping out Isreal and then expect Isreal to pull back to pre-1967 lines and give them money. I truly don't understand how you can call this generous.

Dear ArchAngel,

What source do you use to cough up this garbage. Israel did not what to give Palestinians a homeland as to not create a hostile nation who would use their resources to fight Israel and push Israel (with the help of other hostile nations) into the sea.
Since 1993 Israel has tried to provide the Palestinians some sort of homeland but the fears of those who were defined as right wing fanatics has been proven to be true. Instead of peace Israel actually received WAR and terror. Statistics has it that Israel suffered more civilian casualties as a result of the 'peace process' than the time prior to 1993. This actually shows you of the Arab intent.

Regarding the 'generous' offer Hamas gave Israel I have the following to say:
1- If they are true in their 'GENEROUS' offer then they can first take the first symbolic step by ridding their charter of the clauses pertaining to the destruction of Israel and those references to the forgery 'the protocols of the elders of Zion'.
2- Their 'generous' offer included giving Palestinians all their 'rights'. What 'rights' are they talking about? Their 'right' to kill Jews? their 'rights' to subject Jews to their Dhimmi status.
The problem with the 'rights' issue is that it is very vague and purposly so as to hide the truth behind it. The truth is that when Palestinian offer peace for withdraw to 1967 borders they also speak of their 'rights' or 'right to return' meaning all Palestinian refugees (by UN definition meaning Arab who lived in 'Palestine' from 1946 to 1948 - this includes Egyptian, Sudanese, Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, etc. workers who resided in 'Palestine' at the time) can return to Israeli terrories (NOT Palestinian)
to live as equal ISRAELI citizens. This means that 'Palestine' in the 1967 borders is not enough but they need to dominate Israel as well. This is the form of 'peace' which they are talking about. Under current Palestinian interpretation of Palestinian 'rights' King Jordan's children (as well as himself) have a right to live as Israeli citizens in Israel since his wife is of Palestinian decent.

HAMAS offers peace is stages but is actually a staged peace. Israel would need to first relinquish its military and over 250,000 Israeli citizens from what they claim is 'Palestinian' territory, return the wailing wall and absorb an estimated 7 million Palestinians (again an exaggerated number by the Palestinians) in order to acheive a 'peace in stages' before HAMAS removes its references to the destruction of Israel from its charter. Of course, this plan MEANS the destruction of Israel.

So thanks for the generous 'PEACE' offering but no thanks.

Originally posted by gallopinghordes
AA I can figure out from your posts you hate Isreal for whatever your reasons but how can you ignore Hamas' stated intention of wiping out Isreal and then expect Isreal to pull back to pre-1967 lines and give them money. I truly don't understand how you can call this generous.

You are not very perceptive, or so caught in the dichotomy you can't see any position not having hate.

I support Israel behind the Green Line in compliance with all international law, and the same for Palestine.

Equal rights for all.

The Stated intention of Hamas is no different than the Grand Intent of Israel.

Both are nothing more than thoughts.

You may as well ask for the Moon if you want the Palestinians to stop thinking and dreaming.

I call it generous because it is what Israel claims to want.

They claim to want an end to the occupation.

They claim that they do not want to steal land.

They claim to want an end to attacks.

They are being offered what they claim to want, which is very generous.

They may not get everything they want, but all the big things can be had now.

But, of course, as we all know Israel wants more than they claim.

That is the problem....

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Haniyeh: If Israel withdraws to '67 borders, we'll establish peace in stages

Meanwhile, Haniyeh said, The Washington Post apparently made an error in translation.


Haniyeh doesn't speak English, and Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told The Associated Press on Saturday that the prime minister-designate's remarks must have been mistranslated.

Haniyeh says he wants truce, not peace with Israel


Hamas has no intention of seeking a peace agreement with Israel, distancing himself from a published interview in which he said the group is ready for a deal.

Ismail Haniyeh said Hamas is interested in a long-term truce, but does not seek peace with Israel.

"I did not say anything about recognizing Israel," Haniyeh said.

Hamas does not talk about "peace in stages" but instead a "solution in stages" - and just take a look at the Hamas Charter or their emblem, and you'll know enough...

Ismail Haniyeh said Hamas is interested in a long-term truce, but does not seek peace with Israel.

A truce for a generation is far better than the current situation.

Give the next generation a chance to make peace.

There is no chance with Israel occupying Palestinian land.

How can anyone be expected to recognize Israel?

Without a Constitution, or defined border Israel is Un-Recognizable.

Israel needs to do things that make it recognizable.

Since 1993 Israel has tried to provide the Palestinians some sort of homeland....

This is an outright lie, and destroying this myth topples the rest of your agrument.

Israel has not ever done anything to provide Palestinians with 'some sort of homeland'.

Even the Gaza withdraw is conditional with IDF troops still on their land.

Israel has tried to further its expansion into the West Bank with continued settlement building.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Since 1993 Israel has tried to provide the Palestinians some sort of homeland....

This is an outright lie, and destroying this myth topples the rest of your agrument.

Israel has not ever done anything to provide Palestinians with 'some sort of homeland'.

Even the Gaza withdraw is conditional with IDF troops still on their land.

Israel has tried to further its expansion into the West Bank with continued settlement building.

Your definition of homeland differs from that of the rest of the world. homeland is where Palestinians can live under their laws not that of a foreign country.
In Gaza, Jericho, Nabalus, Jenin etc. there were NO Israeli troops until the Palestinian Authority decided to start its terror reign in 2001. Palestinians only saw Israeli troops when moving to areas outside area "A". The OSLO accords came to initiate a peace process under which Palestinians (among other things) prove their peaceful intentions. It should be remembered that the Palestinian Authority was actually a supposedly 'reformed' terrorist organization, the PLO. The OSLO accords spoke of agreements which provided Palestinians with the infrastructure to lead their own people and in a staged manner while building confidence and ongoing negotiation Palestinians would be given a country recognized by the world.
The Palestinian leadership renegged the agreements to suite their needs and stole Palestinian money for themselves and to wage war against Israel. The confidence building never occured.
When the Palestinians where trusted to protect the tomb of Joseph they did the opposite - Palestinian police were also part of the deseration and the celebrations afterwards.
When the Palestinians were expected to protect Israelis who enter their territory they do not.
When Palestinians are required to comply to extradition requests they do not.
When Palestinians are required to arrest, try and jail terrorists in their file and ranks or in their populace they do not.
When Palestinians are required to stop state-funded anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli incitement they do not.

These actions do not contribute to peace or to building of confidence. As a result the feeling within Israeli circles (both of the people and the leadership) is that the Palestinians do not want peace and cannot be trusted to establish a state with peaceful intent.

In conclusion, Israel bent over backwards to provide Palestinians with self-rule and provide an atmosphere for peaceful a resolution under the agreements signed while retaining their right to protect its citizens from Arab aggressions. These precautions were necessary in light of the PLOs past.


[edit on 26/2/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Ismail Haniyeh said Hamas is interested in a long-term truce, but does not seek peace with Israel.

A truce for a generation is far better than the current situation.

Give the next generation a chance to make peace.

There is no chance with Israel occupying Palestinian land.

How can anyone be expected to recognize Israel?

Without a Constitution, or defined border Israel is Un-Recognizable.

Israel needs to do things that make it recognizable.

ISRAEL has to do nothing - Israel is recognized by most of the world and the UN. Israel's needs are an internal matter. If Palestinians want a homeland 'Palestine' needs to recognize Israel and behave in a peacefull manner in order to make itself recognizable as a country. Until then 'Palestine' will remain nothing but what it is, an entity with no relevance.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

How can anyone be expected to recognize Israel?

Israel needs to do things that make it recognizable.

No.

That is wrong.

The Jewish State of Israel - a long-standing member of the United Nations - does not need to do a single thing to be 'recognized' from others.

Future financial aid to the Palestinian Authority will depend on a Hamas-led government's willingness to meet several conditions - they know they must recorgnize Israel, they do not have any other chance

The earlier they do it, the better for the people in the PA. Without recognizing Israel, there will never be a new Palestinian State as new neighbour of Israel.

And not only Hamas knows this, but also the people on the street in the GazaStrip and the WestBank.

Your definition of homeland differs from that of the rest of the world. homeland is where Palestinians can live under their laws not that of a foreign country.

And Israel has not ever done this let alone offer it, nor have they ever withdrawn from the West Bank.

All of your points are moot.

The ONLY thing Israel could do do give them an independent State is to withdraw, and they refuse.

Despite being the gracious hosts as you imply Israel has been the despotic imposer.

The Palestinians have been denied freedom for two generations, and it is Israel denying they their freedom.

The Palestinians are the victims with the Israelies as the vitimizers.

Really? Israel is the victimizers, ArchAngel?
Must I remind you again how theArab Palestinians became without a home, and must I remind you of who doesn't take their brothers in, uses them as human political pawns against the Israelis as well as human bomgs by offering them explosives belts instead of real aide?

The earlier they do it, the better for the people in the PA. Without recognizing Israel, there will never be a new Palestinian State as new neighbour of Israel.

And supposing the PA and Hamas did agree to recognize Israel, and change their charters.

Would Israel then withdraw from all the territories stolen in the 1967 Sneak Attack?

Or would they want more?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Really? Israel is the victimizers, ArchAngel?
Must I remind you again how theArab Palestinians became without a home

Because Israel invaded in a sneak attack, and has occupied for two generations.

and must I remind you of who doesn't take their brothers in

You mean who does not enable the ethnic cleansing of of more than four million people.

In order to 'take them in' someone would have to first 'drive the Palestinians into the Dead Sea'.

uses them as human political pawns against the Israelis

Please explain how anything the Arab nations is using the Palestinians.

They are not the ones occupying.

Israel is using the Palestinians as their pawn.

as well as human bomgs by offering them explosives belts instead of real aide?

Israel offers no aide while the Arab nations do offer aide.

How much of the hundreds of millions of dollars were spent on explosive belts?

Was it more than 0.0001%?

Where does the rest of the money go?

It goes to make life better for those suffering under Israeli oppression.