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Why the silence from the prophecy experts

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posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 08:32 PM
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Produkt

"America is far less evil then your painting it. Now quit being non patriotic before I report you to DHS."





I hope your kidding, if not.. knock yourself out.


Sun, your right.. Let's simply things and focus on the thread.. But later I want you to help me 'outline' to the best of you ability "all" these Babylons in the Bible. (I don't think it's as simply as you say it is) There has been alot of assertions of oppinions here you realize this is Bible Prophecy we are talking about here right? More on this later..


Explain this scripture and what you think about it? (Going back to the topic)

Jer 50:12 Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.


Iraq has a mother? Who is she? (America has a mother by the way.. her name is England)

Also..

"behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert. "

Hindermost???? (To me this means 'last'.. last what?? last Babylon??? Wilderness, dry land, and a desert? To me this means UTTER destruction.. (I mean come on, Iraq was ALREADY a wilderness, dry land, and a desert before we got there) But.. what do you think it REALLY means..


You want to break down Jeremiah 50 and 51? Let's do it.




Lay it on me.


And Produkt.. I LOVE my country but If I want to point out the iniquity that pervades throughout and my oppinions on her coming judgement, I'll do it to my hearts content and there is not a derned thing you can do about it..






[edit on 26-2-2006 by TxSecret]




posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 09:29 PM
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Explain this scripture and what you think about it? (Going back to the topic)




Jer 50:12 Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.

Iraq has a mother? Who is she? (America has a mother by the way.. her name is England)


The mother being referred to is Semiramis




Also.. "behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert. "




Hindermost???? (To me this means 'last'.. last what?? last Babylon??? Wilderness, dry land, and a desert? To me this means UTTER destruction.. (I mean come on, Iraq was ALREADY a wilderness, dry land, and a desert before we got there) But.. what do you think it REALLY means..


Actually, Iraq was a very rich country with palaces etc due to the oil money.
What this verse means with hindermost is that after the destruction that Iraq suffers she will be an utter desolation. There will be no one living there. It will be the least of nations, the hindermost.



You want to break down Jeremiah 50 and 51? Let's do it.


Just read it and leave the U.S. out of it. Babylon is Iraq. If you have any questions, lay it on me.

I am also interested in hearing your take on all these Babylons. I'm really not quite sure what you mean. Do the Jer 50 and 51 first, then we will go there.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 09:54 PM
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I can't leave the US out of it, and to tell me to do that makes this debate a little unfair. I'll 'tone' it down a bit.. for now. Just because YOU say Iraq is Babylon does not mean that it is.. This is a debate.. remember? I like to get a little pushy sometimes too but give me a break.


So let me get this straight.. NOW you are saying that Iraq is going to be destroyed further than she is now?? Elaborate please. What is it going to take and what what Iraq have to do to make herself a 'desolation' as described in the Bible?


Also, would you expound a little further on Semiramis?? Bible references.. links with information on history?





[edit on 26-2-2006 by TxSecret]



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by TxSecret
I can't leave the US out of it, and to tell me to do that makes this debate a little unfair. I'll 'tone' it down a bit.. for now.


So let me get this straight.. NOW you are saying that Iraq is going to be destroyed further than she is now?? Elaborate please.



When this situation concludes, no man will live there.


Jeremiah 50:3 For out of the north a nation has come up against her; it shall make her land a desolation, and no one shall live in it; both human beings and animals shall flee away.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by TxSecret
I can't leave the US out of it, and to tell me to do that makes this debate a little unfair. I'll 'tone' it down a bit.. for now. Just because YOU say Iraq is Babylon does not mean that it is.. This is a debate.. remember? I like to get a little pushy sometimes too but give me a break.
[edit on 26-2-2006 by TxSecret]


Just because YOU say the USA is babylon does not mean that it is.


Where'd you get this idea that the babylon in the bible mean's USA anyways?



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by Produkt

Originally posted by TxSecret
I can't leave the US out of it, and to tell me to do that makes this debate a little unfair. I'll 'tone' it down a bit.. for now. Just because YOU say Iraq is Babylon does not mean that it is.. This is a debate.. remember? I like to get a little pushy sometimes too but give me a break.
[edit on 26-2-2006 by TxSecret]


Just because YOU say the USA is babylon does not mean that it is.


Where'd you get this idea that the babylon in the bible mean's USA anyways?
Hey, don't get him thinking about that. I'm trying to break him of it. Lots of people think that the U.S. is Babylon. They are in error.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 11:45 PM
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I can't leave the US out of it, and to tell me to do that makes this debate a little unfair. I'll 'tone' it down a bit.. for now. Just because YOU say Iraq is Babylon does not mean that it is.. This is a debate.. remember? I like to get a little pushy sometimes too but give me a break.


I will debate any scripture that you provide that you think points to the U.S. being Babylon





So let me get this straight.. NOW you are saying that Iraq is going to be destroyed further than she is now?? Elaborate please. What is it going to take and what what Iraq have to do to make herself a 'desolation' as described in the Bible?
A civil war is going to break out.




Also, would you expound a little further on Semiramis?? Bible references.. links with information on history?


Tried link, I don't think it worked
www.ldolphin.org/semir.html



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 10:32 AM
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Produkt, remember this little statement you made in another thread?




"Now unless your a racist pig like god"


Now you're in here tag teaming with Sun Matrix.. You are an interesting creature indeed.
(I'm trying to figure out why I'm paying any attention to you at all)

In answer to your questions.. I thought I had made myself clear as to why I think America is Babylon.. I'm sure you've seen my posts in other threads?
(And one in particular on THE very subject)

Sun.

How on earth could a 'civil war', especially in this day and age, cause a 'desolation' ?? (Complete absense of people and animals)

Remember what the land that Israel now occupies was like before she came back?

Do you remember how Mark Twain in Innocents Abroad described it? (I'll see if you know)

HOW and why was this area a desolation? (The Bible also decribes the area Israel is on would be a 'desolation' before she returned)

So you can say that your 'prediction' of a civil war rounding out this prophecy is your oppinion? I still don't think you have the right Babylon.. SOOO.. I don't agree..



OK..

Jer 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

Its says an assembly of great nations from the NORTH.. not the WEST..
Or the 'world' as in this case. If I recall.. America is west of Iraq..

Jer 50:23 How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!

How was Iraq EVER the hammer of the whole earth?


Jer 50:46 At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations.

This is describing something FAR MORE severe than a 'simple' invasion of Iraq or silly civil war.

Jer 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

Now THIS as far as I'm concerned about is vengeance for the 'abomination of desolation' after the antichrist defiles the FINAL temple..(This all happens AFTER the Temple is rebuilt) This further reinforces my belief that this particular Babylon is the SAME one mentioned in Revelation.. and AGAIN I point you to this scripture. (Perfect harmony)


Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore (FINAL BABYLON), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, AND BURN HER WITH FIRE.

(This is nuclear folks, not some 'simple invasion' and civil war)


Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Since when did Iraq EVER reign over the kings of the earth???

Question Sun Matrix.. if the Babylon spoken of here is DIFFERENT than the Babylon spoken of in Revelation.. explain VERY explicitly why you think this is?


Ok, now for the juicy part. I've been thinking about this for some time but you want to honestly know what prophecy scripture is being fullfilled by events 'surrounding' Iraq?

Read Daniel 8: 1-17 very carefully..Couple of stand outs..

Da 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Da 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.


(To me this is talking about Sadam)


Da 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the WEST on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

(Notice how the Bible is indeed very GOOD at giving directions)

Da 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

Da 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

Da 8:8 Therefore the he GOAT waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


Now who on EARTH is this Goat that goes WEST and tramples on the Ram???


It's also pretty clear that the Goat is the Antichrist. (Correction.. one of the four notable ones towards Heaven that came up after the 'great' horn was broken is the Antichrist. ) Keep in mind that it seems the '4 notable horns' that came up towars the 4 winds of Heaven are OF the great horn that was broken. -I'm still analyzing Daniel-

Scary stuff indeed.


I don't mean to get away from Jeremiah but I'm trying to shed some light for you here.. 'hopefully'
















[edit on 27-2-2006 by TxSecret]



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 11:07 AM
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Tx,

Yes I remember that comment, unfortunatly it doesn't really apply to this thread. Secondly, I haven't seen your other post's, else I would've replied to them. But no.. I don't think you've made it clear from what I've seen in this thread alone.



Jer 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

Its says an assembly of great nations from the NORTH.. not the WEST..
Or the 'world' as in this case. If I recall.. America is west of Iraq..


Uh ok... So from that quote your assuming babylon means america? What's north of where babylon used to sit? Not america ... What's north of america today? Canada... But wait, that's just one nation, not great nations




Jer 50:23 How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!

How was Iraq EVER the hammer of the whole earth?



Back in those day's, the whole world was the region they lived in. The culture's of that region had a flat earth cosmology. They didn't follow a big huge sphere with a large landmass that would later be called america cosmology. So technically, that region was the hammer of the whole earth, the whole earth as THEY knew it back then, not as WE know it today.




Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore (FINAL BABYLON), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, AND BURN HER WITH FIRE.

(This is nuclear folks, not some 'simple invasion' and civil war)


I'm puzzled ... where are you reading nuclear in this text? The people of those time's knew nothing about nuclear technologies, not to mention the text is obviously seperating eat her flesh AND burn her with fire. Your reading into the verse with a modern mindset.




Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Since when did Iraq EVER reign over the kings of the earth???


Humm, since when did your american version of babylon reign over the kings of the earth? America doesn't control the world, as hard as it might be for you to believe from what I've seen you posting thus far.




Read Daniel 8: 1-17 very carefully..Couple of stand outs..

Da 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Da 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.


(To me this is talking about Sadam)


That's cute... Saddam is a goat? Pretty vauge interpretation there. You could easily interpret it to be anything you wanted.




Da 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the WEST on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

(Notice how the Bible is indeed very GOOD at giving directions)


West from which cosmology? You gotta remember, the cosmology in those time's didn't consist of a spherical earth with a large landmass that would later be called america.




Now who on EARTH is this Goat that goes WEST and tramples on the Ram???


It's also pretty clear that the Goat is the Antichrist.



Perhaps from YOUR interpretation it may be percieved as that, but then again your giving modern knowledge to these ancient people who wrote these down. I suspect your interpretation is completly wrong.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 11:47 AM
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Wow, you hit it hard, I'm going to answer this a piece at a time.
By the way TX., no tag team here, I'm on your side, we just have different opinions.



How on earth could a 'civil war', especially in this day and age, cause a 'desolation' ?? (Complete absense of people and animals)


No food, no water, disease, destruction, chemicals, poisions, radiation etc.




Do you remember how Mark Twain in Innocents Abroad described it? (I'll see if you know)
Heard it, don't remember though. (I could look it up and impress you)




Jer 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.




Its says an assembly of great nations from the NORTH.. not the WEST..


Originally, it was a coalition of nations most of which are north of Iraq. North America etc.




Jer 50:23 How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!





How was Iraq EVER the hammer of the whole earth?
Now you are arguing with God. I didn't say it, God did. TX. if you understood what was really happening in the world you would understand this. Iraq is the place where the lie that blinds the world originated. You might do a little research on the "Queen of Babylon" Semiramis. Alive and well, unfortunately, she is today.










[edit on 27-2-2006 by Sun Matrix]



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 12:39 PM
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Produkt.. hehe. I'm sorry dude but your statement DOES have a bearing on this thread on any other thread of this 'type'. We are deffinitely LIGHT years apart on the spiritual plane so I can't really debate this with you. (I might try keeping you out of the afterthought dept but we'll see)

Sun, we didn't come out of the gate very well but I'm enjoying this debate with you.. You have shed some light for me as well. continuing....


No comment on Daniel Sun? (No pun intended) lol


You don't have to try and impress me.. your doing a good job just being yourself. There are no perfect debaters in the world.


I just find it interesting how Mark Twain described the land of Israel before she came back..


You can find what he said in this link:

www.christadelphia.org...


Sun, I'm not going to argue with God. (Lest he put me in time out) lol

I'm just going to take his word for it. Now I'll admit, I have not got it all figured out 100%. I'm not sure completely why I've been so passionate about prophecy lately. I've been praying for wisdom from the Holy Spirit and what he has been 'showing' me is really disturbing. (You know you can't really get what your supposed to get out of the scripture unless you have the Holy Spirit by your side?)


Tell me more about what you think about Daniel.. Daniel 8:1-17 in particular.

I'm looking into the 'Semiramis' angle. Will get back to you on that. All in all.. you do realize that Babylon, like the Antichrist is not just a nation/city/person but a SPIRIT. You do realize that there is a huge battle going on, on the spiritual level. You have heard the term 'spiritual warfare' and the unseen hand of God and Satan working in the 'background'. Was sort of hard to grasp this concept in the past but now I'm starting to get it and things are making alot more sense. (Everything that happens on this plane is inexorably intertwined with the spirit realm, what you do here effects the 'other side') It talks about in the Bible that the antichrist spirit is alive and well WAY before the antichrist 'head' shows up. (manifested in a person).

Something to think about.



[edit on 27-2-2006 by TxSecret]



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by TxSecret







This statement illustrates your current 'level' of understanding (or interpretation if you will). Mines not 100% of course but you are deffinitely light years off. 2.. 3.. or 4 versions of Babylon? Come on.. you can do better than that.

Consider these scriptures:


Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.


Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I WILL SAVE THEM FROM AFAR, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.


so what do you think these scriptures are talking about and where do they fit in on 'your timeline'?
(Hopefully it will help you with your 'time line')






[edit on 26-2-2006 by TxSecret]


Again, they have already happened. You seem to lack proper historical knowldge, so I shall enlighten you.

The Israelites DID return to Israel and reclaim their land long after Babylon sacked Jerusalem and burned the temple. They returned and rebuilt the temple.

In 70 A.D., the Romans kicked them out and burned the temple again. The Diaspera. That was the last time before the formation of modern Israel that the Jews had their own nation.

So the prophecies in Jerimiah already have been fullfilled long before Jesus was even born.

Not that I believe in the bible or its prophecies. It is more of historical interest to me than of forecasting. Biblical prophecies have been interpreted by so many people to mean so many things. Its all a matter of individual perspective.

For example, I have heard that the New Babylon in the bible refers to the Vatican. This makes sense as well, when you think about it. The Catholic church spans the whole globe, many waters, many tounges. While it does not have a conquering army of its onw in name, it has enough influence on many nations and has enough wealth that it doesnt need one.

Ive also heard the US named the modern day Rome. This also makes sense really.

So its all a matter of perspective really.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 01:49 PM
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Skadi

"So its all a matter of perspective really."



I can't disagree but I much prefer the 'perspective' that the Holy Spirit provides.

I found this on Yahoo search.. break this down for me.

www.konig.org...

You're trying to say this all happened 2000 years ago?


Sun, I found this also on Yahoo search.. (Your link came up first)

home.earthlink.net...



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 02:58 PM
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Tx Secret, I like the way you think, and you are free to push the America angle (despite what others think). Go for it. I'm with you all the way.

No way, Sun Matrix!
Question: Before you read Revelations do you pray to the Holy Spirit to "enlighten" you?

What is Babylon?
It is a city or place of great luxury, sensuality, and often vice and corruption.
This is not Iraq at all......it's the USA, USA, USA USA..........

Do you really think the merchants of the world will mourn when your "Iraq/Babylon" falls/burns?
Why......because of lost oil fields? Make us laugh! I hardly think so.
You act like Iraq is the cultural center of the world (not that I am tootin' the USA's horn here).
Get a grip dude! Guess what???? IT'S NOT!!!
I beg to differ because:
a.) if Iraq fell and burned many nations around the globe would literally rejoice and celebrate...not mourn at all. And Iraq is not the mother of prostitutes or of abominations......that sir, would be our f*cked up good ol USA. We started the whole sexual revolution...we even have cities that have legalized prostitution. Homosexuality is all over the tube nowadays. Does Iraq have this? Nooooooooooooo.....
Morally, we've dragged the whole world down the tubes.

b.)"I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow"
Your Iraq does not sit like a queen (more like a wart on the ass of the world). She's been seeing war, death and sorrow since day one.

c.) "And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning"
I suppose again, you're thinking oil here. You need to tell me who's gonna mourn when Iraq falls. A couple oil barons and maybe the Bush family, that's about it. Again, NO ONE is going to "bewail" or "lament" if Iraq sinks. Are you? I'm certainly not going to. In fact, for the most part nobody's heart would skip a beat if Iraq slid under the desert and disappeared for good.

d.) "And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men."

All the merchandise here is metaphor, dude. I don't think John was up on words like "technology, internet, cel phones, SUV's, etc." What John is saying is that Babylon "has the best". It has everything. It has it all. America, yes. Iraq, no. You want the best, you gotta go to Babylon, because the rest of the world can't hold a match to her. What it's describing is wealth and riches - America. Again, Iraq is not the center of the universe on this planet. When another country is in trouble, Iraq doesn't come to the rescue (America does!). Merchants of the earth shall not weep or mourn for this terrorist breeding ground burning up into flames. People will rejoice!

e.) "And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!"
Hahahahahahahah, Iraq!! Yeah, right.
Since when does any city in Iraq, outshine New York City.
Hmmmmmmm, "What city is like unto this great city?" - 3 words - New York City - most influential, powerful city in the world.

f.) "And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;"

This is all about entertainers, artisans, musicians, actors, etc. Our entertainment industry (multi-billion) outshines all others in the world. Our motion pictures set the standard. If any artist in the world wants to truly make it big, he comes to America.

Again, are you blind? You are so off base with your interpretation it's not funny...
...actually, it is funny. LOL!

The bottom line is that if Iraq blew up right now......
nobody would care at all (unless you were an Iraqi)

the Antichrist doesn't show up in Revelation til after Babylon burns...and the only way an Antichrist could take over this world is if the "world police" (USA) are gone and burned to the ground. Once the USA is destroyed, it's going to be a mass war for world domination, and the biggest baddest guy is going to take over like a new bully on the block. I would not want to be on this planet when the USA is destroyed. The world will catapult back into the dark ages, no one will come to anyone's rescue..........and when the USA goes up in flames of mushroom clouds.....
yes indeed, the world will mourn, and many will lament and cry.....many a merchant will cry.....and yet not a soul will help us because here....all will be radiated and poison.





[edit on 27-2-2006 by zerotolerance]



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 03:00 PM
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Jer 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.




Now THIS as far as I'm concerned about is vengeance for the 'abomination of desolation' after the antichrist defiles the FINAL temple..(This all happens AFTER the Temple is rebuilt) This further reinforces my belief that this particular Babylon is the SAME one mentioned in Revelation.. and AGAIN I point you to this scripture. (Perfect harmony)


The main problem people have with prophecy is they stray from the facts. These are facts that God has given us. Let's stay with the facts. God says that he will raise the spirit of the Medes. In Jeremiah 51:28, it says, "Consecrate the nations against her, the king of the Medes, etc......" Find out who the ancient Medes are and you will understand why we are talking about Iraq and not Mystery Babylon.

Again, stick with the facts. How can this temple be after the 'abomination of desolation' if the temple destroyed was clearly destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. People stray from the facts of scripture and that is why they come up with all these incorrect theories.


Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore (FINAL BABYLON), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, AND BURN HER WITH FIRE.




(This is nuclear folks, not some 'simple invasion' and civil war)


You again have the wrong Babylon. This is not Iraq, it is Mystery Babylon.




Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.




Since when did Iraq EVER reign over the kings of the earth???
Again, you have the wrong Babylon. This is not Iraq, but Mystery Babylon.




Question Sun Matrix.. if the Babylon spoken of here is DIFFERENT than the Babylon spoken of in Revelation.. explain VERY explicitly why you think this is?
Babylon is Iraq, simple as that. God promises to take vengeance on the Chaldeans for what they did to his temple by Nebuchadnezzar. It's right in front of you happening now, how can you not see it?????????????Iraq does not sit on 7 hills and is not dressed in scarlet and purple. Neither is the U.S.




Ok, now for the juicy part. I've been thinking about this for some time but you want to honestly know what prophecy scripture is being fullfilled by events 'surrounding' Iraq?


Tx, lol, I'm not getting into Daniel other than to say, you are likely correct except about the antichrist comment.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Produkt
Back in those day's, the whole world was the region they lived in. The culture's of that region had a flat earth cosmology. They didn't follow a big huge sphere with a large landmass that would later be called america cosmology. So technically, that region was the hammer of the whole earth, the whole earth as THEY knew it back then, not as WE know it today.

West from which cosmology? You gotta remember, the cosmology in those time's didn't consist of a spherical earth with a large landmass that would later be called america.


What you gotta remember is that Revelations was written for "the end times".
It wasn't some cartography lesson for it's time.
It's about a vision John had regarding the end times.
The Bible (if you place any trust in it) was Divinely Inspired by God.
God, therefore new about the globe and it's landmasses.
God knows everything, remember? (if you believe)
John isn't just dribbling over the lands that he is aware of.....
remember, his vision was from God (who was well aware of the size of this planet and what it looked like....oh I guess, since he created it).


We're dealing with God's "cosmology" here.
Not yours, mine or anyone else's.

[edit on 27-2-2006 by zerotolerance]



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 03:27 PM
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o.p. by Sun Matrix
Iraq does not sit on 7 hills and is not dressed in scarlet and purple. Neither is the U.S.


I've heard tell this city may in fact be Rome. I'm kind of leaning toward Amsterdam as Mystery Babylon myself, though. 'There is something rotten in the State of Denmark.'

I have to agree with you, Sun Matrix, that Jer. 50-51 is referring to modern day Iraq. I posted my reasoning, if you want to call it that, to the Gog/Magog thread.

I'm a Bob Marley fan and all, but I just don't see the US as Babylon.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 08:52 PM
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What is Babylon?
Iraq




It is a city or place of great luxury, sensuality, and often vice and corruption
You are talking about Mystery Babylon



This is not Iraq at all......it's the USA, USA, USA USA..........
It's neither. Neither sit on seven hills and are dressed in scarlet and purple.




Do you really think the merchants of the world will mourn when your "Iraq/Babylon" falls/burns?
You have the wrong Babylon


againWhy......because of lost oil fields? Make us laugh! I hardly think so.
Wrong Babylon again





You act like Iraq is the cultural center of the world (not that I am tootin' the USA's horn here).
Neither, you are referring to Mystery Babylon




a.) if Iraq fell and burned many nations around the globe would literally rejoice and celebrate...not mourn at all. And Iraq is not the mother of prostitutes or of abominations......that sir, would be our f*cked up good ol USA. We started the whole sexual revolution...we even have cities that have legalized prostitution. Homosexuality is all over the tube nowadays. Does Iraq have this? Nooooooooooooo.....morally, we've dragged the whole world down the tubes.
Wrong Babylon again. You are talking about Mystery Babylon, not Iraq or the U.S.



b.)"I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow"
Your Iraq does not sit like a queen (more like a wart on the ass of the world). She's been seeing war, death and sorrow since day one.
Wrong Babylon again.




c.) "And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning" I suppose again, you're thinking oil here. You need to tell me who's gonna mourn when Iraq falls. A couple oil barons and maybe the Bush family, that's about it. Again, NO ONE is going to "bewail" or "lament" if Iraq sinks. Are you? I'm certainly not going to. In fact, for the most part nobody's heart would skip a beat if Iraq slid under the desert and disappeared for good.
Still wrong Babylon



d.) "And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men."
Still continue to have the wrong Babylon




All the merchandise here is metaphor, dude. I don't think John was up on words like "technology, internet, cel phones, SUV's, etc." What John is saying is that Babylon "has the best". It has everything. It has it all. America, yes. Iraq, no. You want the best, you gotta go to Babylon, because the rest of the world can't hold a match to her. What it's describing is wealth and riches - America. Again, Iraq is not the center of the universe on this planet. When another country is in trouble, Iraq doesn't come to the rescue (America does!). Merchants of the earth shall not weep or mourn for this terrorist breeding ground burning up into flames. People will rejoice!
Continuation of having the wrong Babylon



e.) "And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!"Hahahahahahahah, Iraq!! Yeah, right. Hahahahahahahah, Iraq!! Yeah, right.
Since when does any city in Iraq, outshine New York City.
Hmmmmmmm, "What city is like unto this great city?" - 3 words - New York City - most influential, powerful city in the world
Still have the wrong Babylon. This is not Iraq but Mystery Babylon like all the other posts.



f.) "And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;" This is all about entertainers, artisans, musicians, actors, etc. Our entertainment industry (multi-billion) outshines all others in the world. Our motion pictures set the standard. If any artist in the world wants to truly make it big, he comes to America.
More of the same. Still wrong Babylon





Again, are you blind? You are so off base with your interpretation it's not funny......actually, it is funny. LOL!
Well let's see. Babylon is Iraq. It's judgement is in Jeremiah 50 and 51. Mystery Babylon is in Revelations along with it's judgement. I don' t think you are following






the Antichrist doesn't show up in Revelation til after Babylon burns...and the only way an Antichrist could take over this world is if the "world police" (USA) are gone and burned to the ground. Once the USA is destroyed, it's going to be a mass war for world domination, and the biggest baddest guy is going to take over like a new bully on the block. I would not want to be on this planet when the USA is destroyed. The world will catapult back into the dark ages, no one will come to anyone's rescue..........and when the USA goes up in flames of mushroom clouds.....yes indeed, the world will mourn, and many will lament and cry.....many a merchant will cry.....and yet not a soul will help us because here....all will be radiated and poison.


The U.S. is not Babylon.

I'm not quite sure you will yet understand, but there is the effort. Have a good day Zero.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 02:47 AM
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Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.


Skadi gets the golden ring here for being the first to mention whom it is; it is Rome...

The Seven Headed Beast.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Rome is the city of the seven hills, it has been known as this since before Johns time, and is still know as such. This Seven headed beast is the Roman Empire, under the Caesars.


Women druken with the blood of the saints.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


The US, for all the things it has done in the world and for all its worldliness, has yet to begin to martyr Christians, to be drunk with the blood of the saints, yet Rome did this. Not only under the Caesars, but also later on under the Popes through the infamous Spanish inquisition. I have seen it quoted that if it were ever know how many non-Catholic Christians that Rome killed under the Inquisition that it would utterly dwarf the Jewish Holocaust in sheer numbers and methods of torture. So at this point, they are the only ones that are drunk with the blood of the saints; the mating of the Whore, The Catholic Church, and the Beast, the Roman Empire.

the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rome existed first under the Caesars, then later under the Popes, but now not only as a political power but also as a religious one. That beast was given a mortally wounding blow when its political power was taken from it by Napoleon sometime around 1798 and returned to the people of Italy. So finally the beast that was, was not, yet it still exists to this day as a Religious organization, and it still exerts its influence in the halls of power in countries around the globe.

Here is a link to a good further explanation of the topic:
www.historicism.com...



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 12:41 PM
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Hey Sun,
I don't care what you say, the Babylon referred to in Revelation 18 is the good ol' USA.
You will never convince me otherwise. Your theories are weak and contrived at best.
Whatever you want to call it, hon.
Babylon, Mystery Babylon, whatever........my point is Rev 18 is America.
Hopefully you'll be around to see it....

Cheers!


I'm not the only one who thinks the USA is the Babylon of Revelation 18.
Surprisingly lots of other religious folks believe this too:

www.cuttingedge.org...

www.escapeallthesethings.com...

yahushua.net...

bibletools.org...

perhapsidid.blogspot.com...

www.calvaryprophecy.com...

www.bible.org...

www.tnnonline.net...&18/index.html



[edit on 28-2-2006 by zerotolerance]



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