Why the silence from the prophecy experts

It appears that Jeremiah 50 and 51 is being fulfilled right now. Why the silence from the experts?

Are they wrong?

Are they afraid to admit they were wrong?

Are they holding back the truth?

FYI Iraq is Babylon

Jeremiah 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain. 10 And Chaldea shall be a spoil: all that spoil her shall be satisfied, saith the LORD.

[edit on 25-2-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Please expand your theory more. What does it mean? I'm interested to know what else is said to come to pass during this time. Thanks!

So the war in Iraq solidifies this Bible passage as proven prophecy? A group of nations attacking a country in the Babylonian area, one of the most turbulent areas in world, now justifies this passage? How many previous wars or conflicts could be attributed to it? More information into your theory is definately necessary, but I'd be interested to hear it.

I don't even understand what you are trying to ask. You ask where are the prophecy experts...then you insinuate that the quoted prophecy is being fulfilled...and immediately say "are they afraid to admit they are wrong".

It doesn't make sense. Is who afraid to admit they are wrong? The prophecy experts? You? I don't understand what you're trying to imply. Can you please restate clearly?

[edit on 2-25-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Valhall
I don't even understand what you are trying to ask. You ask where are the prophecy experts...then you insinuate that the quoted prophecy is being fulfilled...and immediately say "are they afraid to admit they are wrong".

It doesn't make sense. Is who afraid to admit they are wrong? The prophecy experts? You? I don't understand what you're trying to imply. Can you please restate clearly?

[edit on 2-25-2006 by Valhall]

Sorry, I'm gunshy about having my first thread moved out of this forum.

To speak plainly, I believe we are witnessing the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51.

I know most experts believed that it was already fulfilled with the destruction of the city of Babylon.

I enjoyed your writeup about Gog and Magog, by the way.

Your thoughts on Jeremiah 50 and 51?

I think the most interesting parts of that chapter are the several notices of the king from the north and the fact that at least two times the writer intentionally refers to both the tribes of Israel and the tribes of Judah (i.e. the 10 lost tribes plus the modern day Jews) being reunited from being lost.

Also the reference that it would be uninhabitable afterward...that definitely hasn't taken place.

It's very interesting. I'm going to put a link to this thread in the Gog and Magog thread. Thanks for sharing.

I humbly and respectfully disagree. Iraq is NOT Babylon.


Good point Valhall.. It's pretty clear what the Bible says about Babylon. (The final one) She is pretty much burned to the ground.

Some other verses to consider:

Re 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


Hmm.. whore that sitteth on many waters with a multitude of nations and tongues? (Ahh.. the great melting pot that is America)

What exactly are these ten horns??

Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


I have a pretty good idea.

Don't be fools people, America is dying a slow, spiritual death. I'm so tired of the crowd who moans and groans and just can't accept the possibility that WE are indeed the end times Babylon that is spoken of in the Bible. I suggest you all open your minds because I think it's more than a mere possibility.




[edit on 25-2-2006 by TxSecret]

I humbly and respectfully disagree. Iraq is NOT Babylon.

Hi Txsecret. I believe that there is a Babylon and a Mystery Babylon.

Don't be fools people, America is dying a slow, spiritual death. I'm so tired of the crowd who moans and groans and just can't accept the possibility that WE are indeed the end times Babylon that is spoken of in the Bible. I suggest you all open your minds because I think it's more than a mere possibility.

First no matter how bad America has become, it is far and away the most giving and moral nation in the world. Have you looked at the other countries of the world.

I got in the other thread and read your link to the site talking about America being Babylon. If I may speak candidly, most of the writeup was complete and uttter nonsense. I kind of tire of these sites dreaming up stuff to fit what they want. It's a long write up and I could disprove it piece by piece, however, alot can be disproved in one swoop.

They took a whole lot of things from Jeremiah 50 and 51 and applied it to America. Sorry none of this is valid. Jer 50 and 51 has to do with the judgement of Babylon and the land of the Chaldeans for destroying God temple.This is judgement on their land. Likely, you are seeing that judgement right now.

Respectively, America is not Babylon.

[edit on 25-2-2006 by Sun Matrix]

[edit on 25-2-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Sun Matrix,



For some reason that just didn't make a lot of sense to me but it is late and I'll try and extrapolate it later.

Did you actually read through the entire text? Your response eems kinda' knee jerky to me.
I've been discecting that particular piece for some time now (with my Bible open) and still have not really gotten all the way through it. (I've read it all of course) Lots of other pointers 'pointing' towards us as Babylon. (Third iteration)





We'll deffinitely be disagreeing on this for the forseeable future.
(Kinda' makes these discussions fun now doesn't it?)

Jer 50 and 51 has to do with the judgement of Babylon and the land of the Chaldeans for destroying God temple.

Please explicate on this with something to back it up:

There is a lot of good argument about that the new Babylon in fact the USA.

We'll deffinitely be disagreeing on this for the forseeable future.(Kinda' makes these discussions fun now doesn't it?)

Yea, I look forward to the discussion. I expect the disagreement to be more short lived(I hope)


Jer 50 and 51 has to do with the judgement of Babylon and the land of the Chaldeans for destroying God temple.

Please explicate on this with something to back it up:

No problem. The Lord is taking vengeance for what Babylon did to the first temple of Israel. America was not around then. Iraq is Babylon and the land of the Chaldeans.

Jeremiah 50:28 The voice of them that flee and escape out of the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the LORD our God, the vengeance of his temple.

49 As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth. 50 Ye that have escaped the sword, go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind. 51 We are confounded, because we have heard reproach: shame hath covered our faces: for strangers are come into the sanctuaries of the LORD'S house. 52 Wherefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will do judgment upon her graven images: and through all her land the wounded shall groan.

Txsecret,

Read Jeremiah 50 and 51 and forget about America. America has not slain Israelis or destroyed Gods temple. Put Iraq there, the judgement of the Chaldeans. Remember what happened in Desert Shield and Desert Storm and continues now.

Not so fast Sun Matrix. (I'm not going to forget America in Jer 50 and 51)


Question:

From your understanding how many 'interations' of Babylon are there in the Bible? We first need to see if we agree on that one.. Let me give you a hint. The "final" Babylon is not the same as the first.


Let's go to Ezekiel:
(He is CLEARLY talking about the final Babylon.. after reading all of the versus in 30 which talks about Gog and Magog it is clear that the 'invaders' of Israel In the final war fall under the sword of the KING OF BABYLON.. THE SAME BABYLON THAT IS DESTROYED IN REVELATION)

Finally...

Eze 30:24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will break "Pharaoh's" arms, and he shall groan before HIM with the groanings of a deadly wounded man.

Eze 30:25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.

Hmm.. "when I shall put my sword in the the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of EGYPT" According to you.. Iraq is going to stretch her hand out over the land of Egypt.. NOT



Eze 32:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.


Ok Sun Matrix.. come again?


Also, please give us your deffinition of 'The Temple of Israel" as it is used in this instance?

[edit on 26-2-2006 by TxSecret]

errr... in case you guys haven't noticed, the historical Babylon and the 'new age' Babylon are both under control of the same King.

I guess you're both right.

Probe.. tell us how you came to that conclusion.

If historical Babylon is in Iraq and you believe the Babylon of Revelation is the US, isn't it a moot point since the USA invaded and occupies Iraq right now?

We control Babylon whether it's in downtown Baghdad or downtown Manhattan.



[edit on 2/26/2006 by mythatsabigprobe]

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
If historical Babylon is in Iraq and you believe the Babylon of Revelation is the US, isn't it a moot point since the USA invaded and occupies Iraq right now?

We control Babylon whether it's in downtown Baghdad or downtown Manhattan.



[edit on 2/26/2006 by mythatsabigprobe]

Even though the U.S. controls the land of the Chaldeans, the U.S. is not Babylon or Mystery Babylon.

Hi Txsecret, this should cover your corrent questions

Not so fast Sun Matrix. (I'm not going to forget America in Jer 50 and 51)

Well, Tx, you should, based on the reasons I have already given. It is clear the Chaldeans receive their punishment because of the destruction of the temple.

From your understanding how many 'interations' of Babylon are there in the Bible? We first need to see if we agree on that one.. Let me give you a hint. The "final" Babylon is not the same as the first.

If I understand your question correctly, the answer can be two, three, or four depending on how you want to look at it.

You have Babylon and Mystery Babylon

or any of the following.

Nimrods Babylon
Nebuchadrezzar l and Nebuchadrezzar ll Babylon
Modern day Iraq
Mystery Babylon

None of therse are the U.S.

Let's go to Ezekiel: (He is CLEARLY talking about the final Babylon.. after reading all of the versus in 30 which talks about Gog and Magog it is clear that the 'invaders' of Israel In the final war fall under the sword of the KING OF BABYLON.. THE SAME BABYLON THAT IS DESTROYED IN REVELATION)

TX., these versus have absolutely nothing to do with Gog and Magog. I'm not sure where you got this info. In Ezekiel 29:4, it talks about putting a hook in Egypts jaw just like the prophecy of Gog and Magog but it says nothing about going up against Israel with Russia and Iran. In Ezekiel 30:5 it mentions Ethiopia and Put just like in Gog and Magog but that's about it.

Ezekiel 29 and 30 is a prophecy that has already occured. It happened sometime in the area of 570 BC. To hit a few points, Ezekiel 29:19 says:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.

Ezekiel 30:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. 11 He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.

The versus of prophecy name Nebuchadrezzar specifically, and it happened.

Eze 30:24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will break "Pharaoh's" arms, and he shall groan before HIM with the groanings of a deadly wounded man.

Eze 30:25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.

Do you know any Pharaohs currently? What happened to the Pharaohs of Egypt?

Hmm.. "when I shall put my sword in the the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of EGYPT" According to you.. Iraq is going to stretch her hand out over the land of Egypt.. NOT

No, according to me, it has already happened. Check history.

Eze 32:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.

see above.

Ok Sun Matrix.. come again?

What else you got TX......... Now go back and read Jeremiah 50 and 51 forgetting about the U.S. and using Iraq.

Also, please give us your deffinition of 'The Temple of Israel" as it is used in this instance?

The first temple, Solomons Temple.......Hope you had a good weekend, I await your reply.




[edit on 26-2-2006 by Sun Matrix]

No, according to me, it has already happened. Check history.

This is where we are not going to agree. It HAS not happened yet.

If I understand your question correctly, the answer can be two, three, or four depending on how you want to look at it.

This statement illustrates your current 'level' of understanding (or interpretation if you will). Mines not 100% of course but you are deffinitely light years off. 2.. 3.. or 4 versions of Babylon? Come on.. you can do better than that.

Consider these scriptures:


Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.


Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I WILL SAVE THEM FROM AFAR, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.


so what do you think these scriptures are talking about and where do they fit in on 'your timeline'?
(Hopefully it will help you with your 'time line')


No matter what you say, Israel coming back into her land is an 'indisputable' marker in the Bible and it might help you build your 'timeline' around that instead of your own ideas.

TX., these versus have absolutely nothing to do with Gog and Magog. I'm not sure where you got this info. In Ezekiel 29:4, it talks about putting a hook in Egypts jaw just like the prophecy of Gog and Magog but it says nothing about going up against Israel with Russia and Iran. In Ezekiel 30:5 it mentions Ethiopia and Put just like in Gog and Magog but that's about it.

Think again:

How do you know who the 'kings of the north and south' are going to be?
Sounds like you need to REALLY read Ezekiel.

Check out these 'theories'.. (They are good ones)

www.contenderministries.org...

(Pay PARTICULAR attention to the Russian theory)

You've got the 'wrong' Babylon and your timeline is off.. This is understandable because Ezekiel is 'all over the charts' if you will.


I'll debate with you more on Gog/Magog in Ezekiel later when I have time.. but you have something to chew on for now.



[edit on 26-2-2006 by TxSecret]

This is where we are not going to agree. It HAS not happened yet.

Ezekiel 29 and 30 is about Nebuchadnezzar attacking Egypt and the Pharaoh. Just like it says. You can dream all kinds of stuff up, but it's already happened, just like it said.

This statement illustrates your current 'level' of understanding (or interpretation if you will). Mines not 100% of course but you are deffinitely light years off. 2.. 3.. or 4 versions of Babylon? Come on.. you can do better than that.

Maybe I don't understand your question, or you are dreaming stuff up. Be specific and I will answer accordingly

Consider these scriptures:Eze 37:12, Jer 30:10, Jer 30:11--so what do you think these scriptures are talking about and where do they fit in on 'your timeline'? (Hopefully it will help you with your 'time line')

These scriptures are about the restoration of Israel and have nothing to do with who Babylon is or the prophecy in Ezekiel 29 and 30 that has been fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzars destruction of Egypt.

No matter what you say, Israel coming back into her land is an Indisputable marker in the Bible and it might help you build you timeline around that instead of your own ideas

I never mentioned Israel or a timeline, we were talking about Babylon and Jeremiah 50 and 51. We were also discussing who is Babylon. Lets get back on track to what we were talking about.

As far as my own ideas, I am backing my position with historical fact not something I made up. Check the facts.

I'll debate with you more on Gog/Magog in Ezekiel later when I have time.. but you have something to chew on for now.

I checked the website and it was good, however, it was all talking about Ezekiel 38 and 39 which is Gog and Magog. There is nothing in there about Ezekiel 29 and 30 which is about Nebuchadnezzar attacking Egypt around 570 BC.

You are jumping all over the place, time lines, restoration of Israel, Gog Magog, Babylon past and current. Let's stay with one topic if we can.

I say Jeremiah 50 and 51 is happening right now. You say, I think, not so because the U.S. is Babylon.

I have given you facts from the scripture. God said I will take vengeance on Babylon for destroying the temple and killing Israelis. Facts. That vengeance is happening now. The U.S did not destroy the temple or kill Israelis.

TX, there is no Babylon past, present or future that is the U.S.

TxSecret,

As much as I don't believe in this ... stuff. SunMatirx is right. Your pre-assuming that babylon mean's USA. There's nothing indicative in the bible about babylon being the USA. And as SunMatrix has repeatedly tried pointing out to you, the USA never destroyed the temple, as the USA didn't exist back in that time period. Nor do those verses even discuss anything pertaining to USA soil. It's all dealing with the culture's of that region and that region alone. If you'd kindly quit pre-assuming that the text in question is discussing a non-existant land at the time of it's writting, you can clearly see SunMatrix is correct on what the prophecies are saying. America is far less evil then your painting it. Now quit being non patriotic before I report you to DHS.