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NEWS: Iraq collapsing into civil war

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posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
TODAY's TV HEADLINES -

Fox - 'Curfew brings significant drop in violence'
CNN - 'despite curfew, violence escalates'
MSNBC - ran a Jackio O biography
regular NBC - 'Curfew brings significant drop in violence'


No wonder everyone's so confused, with headlines like that. To add to the confusion, here's BBC's headline:

Curfew fails to halt Iraq killing

Are you even more confused now?



A bit off topic here, but what's the difference between NBC and MSNBC? Is MSNBC owned by Microsoft?




posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
So there is a day or two with an uptick in violence.
The press jumps on it to get headlines so that
people will get uptight and watch their shows.
That's NOT a civil war.



Well Flyers the truth is that has been violence in Iraq from day one of invasion, is has been escalating and many of our troops has die because the insurgency.

Who is the insurgency? perhaps we should concentrate on the Iraqi people that are not happy with US invasion.

While they were busy targeting our troops they were not much into each other.

It only took a spark for them to turn around and do what they has been doing for centuries but has been on hold during the 40 years of Saddam rule.

Fight each other for power, land and the right to rule.




TODAY's TV HEADLINES -

Fox - 'Curfew brings significant drop in violence'
CNN - 'despite curfew, violence escalates'
MSNBC - ran a Jackio O biography
regular NBC - 'Curfew brings significant drop in violence'


Actually I find the news targeting the violence in Iraq more now perhaps trying to cover up the port deals.



Leave it to CNN to continue to feed the radical lefties (who are
the only viewers they have left) exactly what they want to hear.


Common flyers you can not believe that.



Here's some news for all of you who hope that there
is Civil War so you can, yet again, blame Bush ... two days
of uptick in violence is not a civil war. Having the press
'chat up' something for ratings doesn't make a civil war.



Actually many will blame Bush, I will blame the hasty approach to invading Iraq and the way that many things were taken for granted when it comes to the people, religions and views of the Iraqi people and the middle east historical facts.

But let's not forget that the administration knew that this was going to happen but they don't know how violent will turn.

One of the reason for the hurry to put in an Iraqi government was to establish a rule that people will respect.

But it was a problem with it, Iraq while majority Shiites they are not the only population in that country.

Sunnis has a very important role in the Arab world they may be minority in Iraq if you do not count Kurds that they are majority Sunni descendants and Turkish.

Sunnis are the majority tribal group in the Arab world with 4 sub tribes in Iraq.

Shiites wanted retribution and while they have been busy taking over the government with the help of US they also has been harboring the right to retaliate for the years of oppression under Saddam.

The retaliation was expected but the real issue is that Sunnis will fight back, for the Shiites will be their way to revenge, for Sunnis will be their right to take over the country again.

Is Bush at fault for the instability of Iraq? Well I will agree with many that said that Iraq to begin with was never stable, just on hold under the Dictatorship of Saddam.

The invasion broke the hold and Pandora box was left open.

What many forget is that the Bush administration goal was an united Iraq nation, but the sectarian sentiments will rule the people.

Civil war is inevitable in a historical point of view at the outcome and how violent and how long it takes we will see.

Now I wonder what will be the role of our troops and our own administration toward all these we just have to wait and see.








[edit on 25-2-2006 by marg6043]



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 11:47 AM
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Marg - You are quite right, civil war seems all but inevitable. History shows that whenever a dictatorship that has kept things "frozen" for decades suddenly disappears, accounts must be settled for people to move on. It was the case in Yugoslavia when Tito died, in Zaire when Mobutu died (and the Hutu and Tutsi are still dealing with the aftermath), as well as, in a lesser manner, when the Soviet Union broke up - look at Chechenya, for example.

Iraq is a bit like Greenland. Covered in ice, Greenland is the world's largest island - but if you take away the ice, you discover that Greenland is in fact an archipelago. Iraq seemed unified as long as Saddam was there to force that unity, but take away Saddam and you discover a fractious nation with diverging ethnic groups... that has to be taken into account when dealing with that country's journey towards freedom.

Expecting Iraqis to adopt democracy and be peaceful after a mere three years, and writing them off when that doesn't happen, shows a troubling lack of ability for long-term outlook. When dealing with mindsets and attitudes, change is measured not in terms of months or years, but decades and centuries. For example, how long did it take, after slavery was ended in 1865, for African-Americans to be deemed truly equal? And even after Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act, didn't there remain some prejudice?

Iraq's journey towards freedom and its own, homegrown form of democracy will take a long time, necessitate an evolution in mindsets and most probably include setbacks like a civil war. This is an undertaking that will take decades.



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by Otts

Iraq's journey towards freedom and its own, homegrown form of democracy will take a long time, necessitate an evolution in mindsets and most probably include setbacks like a civil war. This is an undertaking that will take decades.


I agree with you Otts, we saw it coming and many of us knew the facts involve and the troubles ahead, I believe that the Bush administration saw the same thing, but as usual other agendas were prioritized over.

I only hope that our troops will not become targets in the whole deal.

So far our troops seems to be taking a side line approach to the violence.

One thing is to be targeting insurgency and now the insurgency is the Iraqi people getting at each other.

I still wonder what the role of our soldiers will be now in Iraq.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Who is the insurgency?

Those who killed and threatened to kill the Iraqis who went to their first free elections in 40 years. Those who blow up the oil pipe lines so as to ruin the Iraq economy. Those who plant car bombs to kill freely elected officials, school children, families in the market place, police lining up for pay, children receiving candy from soldiers. It is VERY easy to see who the insurgents are. Iraqis know that if the insurgents would stop, then Americans could go home.


perhaps we should concentrate on the Iraqi people
that are not happy with US invasion.

Why concentrate on them? They are a miniority. Remember
the Iraqi lady who said that anyone who hated Bush could
go to hell?
www.exposetheleft.com...


Common flyers you can not believe that.


ABSOLUTELY I believe that. CNN doesn't just lean to the left,
it is the altar upon which the radical left worships. CNN's ratings
are pathetically low as a result.


Civil war is inevitable

I still disagree. But only time will tell which of us has
guessed correctly on this.

[edit on 2/26/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
but what's the difference between NBC and MSNBC?
Is MSNBC owned by Microsoft?


I don't know what the ownership difference is ... if any.
MSNBC is an all news/all day channel. NBC is a network
with news sometimes and entertainment the rest of the time.

Your BBC headlines was interesting. CNN and BBC have the
violence continuing to grow despite the curfew. Fox, NBC and
now CBS and MSNBC have it declining.

I haven't watched the ABC news so I don't know what they
are claiming.

I tuned in CNN and watched as the reporter claimed that the
violence was growing ... and yet the streets behind him
were empty and quiet.


I have come to the conclusion that a straight and truthful
NEWS report is impossible to get on this planet. It is all
spin and bias and agenda. The truth can't be found.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 07:12 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
I have come to the conclusion that a straight and truthful
NEWS report is impossible to get on this planet. It is all
spin and bias and agenda. The truth can't be found.



Ain't that the truth!


And now, the latest development brought to you by the BBC:


Iraq leaders see hope of progress

Political and militia leaders in Iraq say they have made progress in talks aimed at curbing sectarian violence.

At least 165 people have been killed since Wednesday in unrest sparked by the bombing of a major Shia shrine.

Sunni clerics and one of the main Shia militias have agreed to work together to prevent further sectarian bloodshed.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


I like BBC News, it's not too left-leaning, not too right-leaning. Relatively fair and balanced to me, but that's not to say it doesn't have it's own agenda



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 07:46 AM
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~~...Civil War...

...just as expected...

the 'democracy' our administrations strategists held out there, was the 'carrot-on-a-stick' ploy!!

the real prize or unifing-force is not the type of gov't , be it a Democracy or a Representative form of democracy or a Parlimentary-democracy et al...
the focal point is the 'Constitution', which is given a Life-of-its-own, a document that becomes an Entity...by the will & consent of the masses

Iraq is torn & divided because they had not surrendered their allegience to the concept that an
agreed upon Constitution would become their "God" in their earthly enterprise called Government...
The 2 major sects of Muslims still considered their spiritual 'Allah" as their supreme law & government here in the world of earthly living.

imo, this is one reason why the US is called the GreatSatan...
the Constitution document itself is the Apex=Supreme Meme (call it a god)
the democratic processes in organizing a representative govt is only a stepping stone in perpetuating the Entity called 'The Constitution'
(as you all can see right now, that even our democratic system has morphed into life-long political classes, elites, special interests, oligarchs, etc)
All of which can be tolerated, because the Supreme document that has become an Entity, is much larger than democracy or ethical representation or even the mutated processes of '1 man 1 vote' theology we have today.

The 3 divisions of indigenous(?sp) Iraq will not adopt a 'Constitution' which has any type of supremacy over their Prophet or Allah...
i suspect the regime planners/neocons/PNACers et al, understood this dynamic...& the 'carrot' of democracy was for WesternWorld consumption and a 'carrot' to lure some Muslims which have a leaning toward political leadership (but no inclination or opportunity to join in the clerics learnings)

do-be
a good citizen today



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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We (the US, maybe UK, as well) are lead by a group of non-thinking, self-absorbed, arrogant and delusional fools. And WE, the People, who elected them are no better.

Any idiot could have foreseen this outcome from the get-go. I know this one did. You don't just go in and totally destroy an entire country, ripping apart it's infrastructure, trash a culture that has a far longer and richer history than your own, kill it's citizens by the thousands and then ask them to cheerfully comply to your demands and wake up to a new reality of your own choosing. Life doesn't work that way. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you give up your life as a Christian Fundamentalist, Baptist, Jew, or whatever you are, and become a devout servant of Allah and supporter of the new, foreign political regime, hand-picked by the rulers of the foreign invaders? I mean, that is what we're asking of them, isn't it?

IMO, we (US & UK) have no business in the Middle East, had questionable intentions when we went in back in 2003, and have commited actions since then that fall into the caregory of crimes against humanity.

IMHO, when Bush finally does leave office, I hope he does so in handcuffs ...



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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The Unseen Epidemic


Originally posted by netbound
We (the US, maybe UK, as well) are lead by a group of non-thinking, self-absorbed, arrogant and delusional fools. And WE, the People, who elected them are no better.

Indeed. The more certain of our own righteousness and infallibility we are, the more susceptible to this fate we become.

How fortunate for us all that we, as critics, are immune to the ravages of this grievous affliction.





Edit: Fallible.


[edit on 2/26/2006 by Majic]



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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Come on netbound don't hold back, why don't you tell us how you really feel. Then when you've finished venting your emotions all over the place perhaps you can take a more objective look at everything and post something that can withstand scruitny and debate.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 06:24 AM
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BBC is reporting 1300 deaths in Baghdad alone, that figure provided by the Baghdad morgue. Iraqi Police say 1,020 but the last count I saw in this thread was 165 just two days ago.. as usual, we're not being told the full story.


news.bbc.co.uk...
On Tuesday, the Washington Post reported that the Iraqi police said 1,020 people had been killed in violence following the bombing of a Shia shrine last week, but officials at Baghdad's morgue told the newspaper they had logged 1,300 deaths.

US and Iraqi officials have said the media exaggerated the figures.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 07:42 AM
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Is it a civil war yet? -Washington Times
Iraq — civil war at last? -Middle East North Africa Financial Network, Jordan
Iraq's Anarchic Civil War -AlterNet
Iraq teetering on threshold of civil war: think-tank -Gulf Times, Qatar
Is Iraq in a state of civil war now? How do you tell? -TMCnet
Iraq's mini-civil war: At least 1,300 killed -uruknet.
Sunni leaders prepare to fight -Detroit Free Press



An Iraqi resident inspects the Sunni Hurriya mosque after it was damaged by a bomb attack in Baghdad February 28, 2006. Interior Ministry sources said that a Sunni Arab mosque was damaged by a bomb early Tuesday morning. The attack came after the bombing of a Shi'ite shrine last week set off reprisals against Sunni targets and plunged Iraq into its deepest crisis since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.


Iraqi soldiers walk among the rubble of the Sunni Hurriya mosque after it was destroyed by a bomb attack in Baghdad, February 28, 2006. Interior Ministry sources said a Sunni Arab mosque was damaged by a bomb early Tuesday morning. The attack came after the bombing of a Shi'ite shrine last week set off reprisals against Sunni targets and plunged Iraq into its deepest crisis since the fall of Saddam


Cars burn at the scene of a car bomb attack in Baghdad's Karrada district February 28, 2006. Bombs killed at least 32 people in Baghdad and wrecked the tomb of Saddam Hussein's father on Tuesday as the ousted leader was in court for the first time since days of sectarian violence pitched Iraq toward civil war.


raqis inspect damage at the site where a car bomb exploded in central Baghdad. Bombers killed more than 30 people, including two British soldiers, in Iraq as tanks guarded Sunni mosques amid fears of a new outbreak of sectarian violence.


It starts anew: so much for that feel-good horsecrap propagandist news about it being over.

36 killed as 4 explosions rock Baghdad -Dallas Morning News



I'm wondering if declaring it's civil war is like admiting your an alcoholic in that you remain in denial till you fall so deep in the hell hole you finally snap out of the stupor.

[edit on 28-2-2006 by Regenmacher]



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by Regenmacher
I'm wondering if declaring it's civil war is like admiting your an alcoholic in that you remain in denial till you fall so deep in the hell hole you finally snap out of the stupor.


Or lose everything you own; all your money, house, car, job, family and self-respect... Then you either crawl back up or die.

Yeah, I think it's exactly like that. A classic case of denial. It's not the FACTS that matter, it's what you SAY about them that matters. That's the BushCo way! "Mission Accomplished"!



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 08:33 AM
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Great stuff everyone. Thanks. (Came late.)



You have voted marg6043 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 01:14 PM
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After the curfew in Iraq I just heard on MSNBC that 4 dozen people were just killed in sectarian fighting and bombing. Total reported dead, l300.

Maybe this isn't civil war; but it's real close. If this violence continues will the neo-cons admit mistakes and that it is a civil war or continue to blame the strife on "insurgents?"

I just hope our military people don't get caught up in a situation that seem to be spiraling out of control.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 02:23 PM
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Sir Jeremy Greenstock, who was London's senior representative in Baghdad until 2004, thinks that while he calls Iraqi sectarian confrontations a low level civil war he agree is a civil war happening.


He fears local communities will look increasingly to militias for protection rather than the central authorities in Baghdad.



This will probably take the Iraqi tribal groups into a division that may actually impair the US dreams of a Unified Iraq.


"The unity of the country, the forward progress of the country would be lost," Greenstock said.



One of the things that go on in countries with sectarian divisions is that they do engage in assassinations all the time. They are called silence assassinations.

This would not stop in Iraq is part of the way these people live and act by.

They are also known from getting rid of minority communities to cleanse their cities, I truly believe that the Shiites wants to have a free somewhat democratic Iraq with plenty of foreign business and free markets to bring prosperity to the country.

The only stepping stone is the Sunnis, not only they are a rival tribe but also they were in power under Saddam retribution is in order and Shiites probably feel that they deserved.

Also we have to understand that most of the struggles and insurgency in Iraq is has been credited to them.

Perhaps Shiites wants to clean their cities from the Sunnis once and for all.

I believe the low scale civil war but one that is going to be on going for many years to come.

www.wdnn.com...


[edit on 28-2-2006 by marg6043]



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 02:54 AM
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Now it is revealed that the administration was warned about the insurgency problem 2+ years ago. More than likely, they planned to see Iraq escalate into civil war, so there's a PNAC democracy for you.

A democracy served up burnt and rotten with a big facade.


Intelligence agencies warned about growing local insurgency in late 2003

WASHINGTON - U.S. intelligence agencies repeatedly warned the White House beginning more than two years ago that the insurgency in Iraq had deep local roots, was likely to worsen and could lead to civil war, according to former senior intelligence officials who helped craft the reports.

Among the warnings, Knight Ridder has learned, was a major study, called a National Intelligence Estimate, completed in October 2003 that concluded that the insurgency was fueled by local conditions - not foreign terrorists- and drew strength from deep grievances, including the presence of U.S. troops.

The existence of the top-secret document, which was the subject of a bitter three-month debate among U.S. intelligence agencies, has not been previously disclosed to a wide public audience.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 11:34 AM
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uk.news.yahoo.com


VIGILANTE ACTION

In some districts, residents have formed armed patrols and thrown up barricades. Sunnis fear Shi'ite militias nominally loyal to parties in the U.S.-backed interim government, while Shi'ites worry about Sunni insurgents whose past attacks have targeted Shi'ite civilians as often as U.S. or Iraqi forces



So the press are allready started segregating the different peoples and giving them labels.



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 12:30 PM
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What is going on with media coverage of this?

Here is a quote from Foxnews



The government said 379 people had been killed and 458 injured as of Tuesday afternoon in nearly a week of sectarian violence tied to the Askariya bombing. Another 30 died Wednesday.


That is taken from this article. Not 1300, not 1000+ only 379. Are we even getting the real story on this?

I am linking the article if you want to read it.

www.foxnews.com...



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