A question for 9/11 Conspiracy believers

koji_K Im just going with the answer I always get when I simply ask why to all these 9-11 plots. Pretty much every time I asked I got so the US could justify the war in Iran or Afghanistan 9 out of 10 times Iraq SINCE Afghanistan is a arm pit of a country.

If you know of other reasons besides the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan I would honestly love to hear them.

Originally posted by Jack Tripper


Absurd. None of these claims are based on any facts or authoritative knowledge. You are purely making this nonsense up without having a clue of what you are talking about.

Oh yes Jack Tripper your right to smuggle and plant some WMDs into Iraq would require massive amounts of people. 10 C-5 galaxies a Divison of Marines a convoy 100 duce and a halfs and thousands of Iraq soldiers all on the take.

What was I thinking of course you would need a huge amounts of people and resources to plant and move some canisters of Chemicals

FYI I know enough about what it would take to plant evidence since im a third generation Cop Not that I ever did anything like that but I know how easy it could be done.

It really wouldnt be that hard even on that scale if you had the right resources which this cabal of 9-11 must surely have. Sure Saddam would cry foul those arent my WMDs but nobody would believe him since they were found in a bunker on his military base.

This whole post is a ridiculous attempt at debating who was behind 9/11. The 9/11 section is being degraded with this elementary logic.

You know what?

During WW2, the vast majority of captured American soldiers were not killed, but were returned alive (source).

Uh oh! But why would the Nazis return American soldiers alive when they were killing so many Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, etc.? Why not just make the Americans work in the concentration camps too, or just shoot them?

Welp, by your logic, Shadow, I guess the Holocaust never happened! Or all of those soldiers were actually returned dead and we're just being lied to about that.

Non sequitur logic tends not to be a very good angle to attack something. It would be more fruitful if you went to some of the posts outlining the physics of the WTC collapses, etc., instead of a totally irrelevant argument consisting of "Oh yeah? Why didn't we fake WMDs half the world away under international supervision then??"

[edit on 23-2-2006 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by bsbray11
This whole post is a ridiculous attempt at debating who was behind 9/11. The 9/11 section is being degraded with this elementary logic.

You know what?

During WW2, the vast majority of captured American soldiers were not killed, but were returned alive (source).

Uh oh! But why would the Nazis return American soldiers alive when they were killing so many Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, etc.? Why not just make the Americans work in the concentration camps too, or just shoot them?

[edit on 23-2-2006 by bsbray11]

Hmmm... let me think I wonder why most US troops were returned while Jews were killed? Perhaps because the US it self had large amounts of Nazi troops in their control that Germany wanted back someday. How many Nazi POWs did the Jews have in their control?

Our perhaps it was because Hitler never considered the US a subhuman race like the Jews. The US during WW2 actually had a huge german population and some fine looking " Aryan" people by any Nazi standard.

Ask yourself how well the Russian POWs did in the Nazi hands? Or the Polish POWs both consdier sub human in Hitlers eyes.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
koji_K Im just going with the answer I always get when I simply ask why to all these 9-11 plots. Pretty much every time I asked I got so the US could justify the war in Iran or Afghanistan 9 out of 10 times Iraq SINCE Afghanistan is a arm pit of a country.

If you know of other reasons besides the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan I would honestly love to hear them.

Well, I can understand that. I guess I'm not the best person to try to defend the argument though, since I don't think 9-11 was a plot to invade Iraq. Another reason (although I don't agree with this view completely, either) people give for 9-11 is that it was orchestrated so that the government could crack down on civil liberties for some evil purpose. But like I said before, in any event, we did end up invading Iraq... maybe if the public was more vocal than it was in opposing Iraq they would have eventually planted WMDs.... Could be the powers behind it all didn't realize how easy it would be to just change arguments rather than stick with WMDs...

My own view (which changes often) is that 9-11 wasn't deliberately orchestrated by our government, but that our government failed in such a massive way preventing it that they then turned around and tried to cover up that failure, making it look like a bigger conspiracy than it is (although still a big one, in that we don't really know still what exactly went wrong with the intelligence process).



[edit on 23-2-2006 by koji_K]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Hmmm... let me think I wonder why most US troops were returned while Jews were killed? Perhaps because the US it self had large amounts of Nazi troops in their control that Germany wanted back someday. How many Nazi POWs did the Jews have in their control?

Our perhaps it was because Hitler never considered the US a subhuman race like the Jews. The US during WW2 actually had a huge german population and some fine looking " Aryan" people by any Nazi standard.

Ask yourself how well the Russian POWs did in the Nazi hands? Or the Polish POWs both consdier sub human in Hitlers eyes.

But see, that's exactly the point: those two things are not comparable. There are circumstances and conditions and etc. that are exclusive to each set of events.

Similar with 9/11 and Iraq's WMDs.

That's why arguments like this aren't very solid.

Im asking this question in relation to 9-11 theories that have the motive of them being the Invasion of Iraq. Perhaps I should have made that more clear from the start. In that case they are very much related since they serve the same role accept one would have been som much easier to pull off.

koji_K rasied a good and very valid point about the why of 9-11 having nothing to do with Iraq and that was new to me. Thats a whole different take on 9-11 and my question has really nothing to do with such a theory.

But the vast majority of 9-11 theories I have come across give getting public support for Iraq as the reason for the whole thing. Going along I cant understand why they didnt plant any WMDs its a valid question too those conspiracies.

Ive been given one decent theory that those WMDs will turn up in another country in the future and thus be the justification for a future invasion. I can buy something like that it could make sense.

But answers like this group wouldnt have the resources to plant some WMDs in a country they control after having the resources to pull off 9-11 thats a weak answer.

[edit on 23-2-2006 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
But answers like this group wouldnt have the resources to plant some WMDs in a country they control after having the resources to pull off 9-11 thats a weak answer.

[edit on 23-2-2006 by ShadowXIX]

But don't you see - once 9/11 happened - they didn't *need* to plant any evidence. In the CBS report I linked to in my post above. Just hours after 9/11 - indeed effectively minutes, after the attacks. Sambone was already noting that Rumsfeld was asking that both Bin Laden and Hussein to be linked with the attacks - whether they had any firm evidence or not.

What was Rumsfeld's quote (as confirmed by the subsequent FOIA application) ? 'Go massive - sweep it all up -related or not' Once that connection had been made in the minds of most of the American public - then it didn't matter whether wmds were found or not. Imho, the WMD lies were made to sell the war overseas - to us in europe, and elsewhere.

And has been noted elsewhere - PNAC had declared the need for a 'new Pearl Harbor' precisely to enable the steps towards war to be made. IMHO, 9/11 has never been about Iraq or Afghanistan but the country in the middle.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
But still thats a important factor to the war we are still in since its the entire basis for it, and its not "not necessary" as some people claim. Public support without the WMDs crashed and keeps getting lower all the time. If it gets low enough a rerun of Vietnam can easily happen and the US pulls out due to public pressure.

Maybe when the ratings get low enough, that's when we will mysteriously find WMD? Just a thought. Maybe they don't need to find them yet. Let's say that in 2 years we (regular people) start protesting the war and such. Wouldn't finding WMD's after all that time be the best thing they could do to help bolster the war?

I don't follow too much 9/11 muckety-muck. Theories are great because they can fuel the imagination enough to really investigate the great mysteries. However, when you start hearing that aliens living underneath Denver International Airport helped to build devices to make the towers fall...you really have lost track.

Osama bin Laden is/was a billionaire. He owned property in Afganistan. For whatever reason, Osama stopped obeying requests from the CIA. The CIA thought the right idea to bring Osama back on board was to launch missles at Osama's property.

A CNN news correspondent was there for one of the attacks. Just like magic: CNN cut to a commercial and this news correspondent changed the tale.

Osama asked the CIA to stop attacking his property. They didn't listen. He warned the CIA that he would enact revenge.

I do not justify the deaths of thousands on 9/11. Frankly, there is no measure of justice here. Osama, if he still lives--should be brought to trial. However, should this ever happen, you can imagine the tales Osama would tell.

This may be why he hasn't been captured.

Your thoughts?

ShadowXIX
Where was this uber powerful secret cabal when no WMDs in Iraq showed up? Planting a few WMDs would have been childs play compared to most of these 9/11 Conspiracies.

It would not have been. The reason's pretty simple:

Any Iraqi WMD findings, in order to be confirmed, would have come under international scrutiny. As Iraq's weapons programs were pretty well documented, there wasn't much room for miracles. Remember the Anthrax prior to the Patriot Act? It was identified as the Ames Strain and traced back to few possible origins (all domestic, btw). It wouldn't have been possible to simply dump some WMD in Iraq and expect international experts not to notice. In contrast, 9/11 was only scrutinized by internal governmental agencies, all of which seemed eerily uninterested in everything deviating from the quickly established official tales. Take WTC7, for example.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX


But my question stems for the "why" of these 9/11 conspiracies.
# 1: Most often the answer I get for why is so the US would be justified in the publics eyes in invading Oil rich Iraq.
# 2: Afghanistan in the resource department is a undeveloped dirt ball compared to Iraq so thats rarely the answer to why I guess.

your asking for a complex and multi-layered answer...which would have to start with understanding that the whole web of fabrications & plots & conspiracies involving 9-11 and the War-On-Terror(ism) was not laid-out in some master-plan created by the PNAC neo-cons or
President GHW Bush the Elders' loyal cadre who have resurrected themselves into power with the current President GW Bush administration.

'WMD' or the imagined 'threat of WMD'
is one of these fabrications which is designed/intended to confuse reason and to become ingrained into our citizens' collective conscious.

A desire to seize or occupy 'Oil rich Iraq' did not cause 9-11 to be planned.
the 9-11 attacks led to US/UK troops in the middle & near east.

A desire to control Afghanistans' poppy crop or future caspian-oil-corridor
did not cause 9-11 to be planned or set into motion by PNAC or any other elites, either!

just like the 1993 WTC bombing (which failed) the 2001 WTC attack was done entirely by a small group of 8 zealots...who for the most part kept the operation secret to the cell members only, asking only for funds and extra personnel from certain 'sponsors' or 'benefactors'...with the vow that the
operation must be trusted "Praise Be Allah"...al-Qaida & OBL were only incidental in accomplishing 9-11
~So, begins the web of conspiracies, because the USA couldn't have been brought to its knees by a group of 8 zealots in 4 commandeered aircraft
aided in the hijacking by a dozen radical terrorists.(except for 1 no-show)
No, the US had to fabricate that a world-wide, highly structured & organized, terrorist/radical-fundamentalist/Islamic-Jihadist/evil-dooers had worked for 7 or more years to devise and organize the diabolical and inhumane undertaking....

'they' are quick to exploit every opportunity, and there actually has grown
a Jihad against the WesternWorld....basically because 'they' got found out,
it seems the CIA plots to exterminate the anti-soviet mujahadeen fighters
and the plans to disarm & eliminate them became evident...which in turn set in motion the Fatwas & Jihadson a much grander scale. Until that time Muslims/ Islam were in a state of slow burn against the Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine prior to Israeli statehood in 1948...

another cover-up conspiracy was needed to deflect the complicity of US because black budgets funded Arab cells throughout the world, the rationalization was that some agents could be inserted into cells, the intel agencies wanted to develop protocols for tracking the movements & migrations of cells, groups, individuals too...
many Arab men were trained in flight schools, Phoenix-Scottsdale comes to mind, thats where Hanjour led school groups for 10 years....

this is way too lenghtly, i suggest getting familiar with:
www.fas.org...
Executive Summary: Mindsets of Mass Destruction
Paper: The Sociology and Psychology of Terrorism

or in easy pdf format:
www.loc.gov...


--> there is a interview with 3 (three) scientists tonight on

Coast-to-Coast AM, & they have a new take on
The War-on-Terror.....today is Thursday night 23 Feb 2006

SU SU SUDIO!

Do you really beleive that or are you just putting us on?

The notion that 8 guys did this is beyond ridiculous!

such lively and considered debate about planting of WMD in Iraq.



I am sure many will find this quote from WAYNE MADSEN REPORT.COM of interest



November 11, 2005

" ...... According to U.S. intelligence sources, the White House exposure of Valerie Plame .........was intended to retaliate against the CIA's work in limiting the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction....... the CIA Counter-Proliferation Division prevented the shipment of binary VX nerve gas from Turkey into Iraq in November 2002. The Brewster Jennings network in Turkey was able to intercept this shipment which was intended to be hidden in Iraq and later used as evidence that Saddam Hussein was in possession of weapons of mass destruction"




See full story here (scroll down) :


www.waynemadsenreport.com...

.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX

If you know of other reasons besides the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan I would honestly love to hear them.

What part of PERMANENT GLOBAL WAR do you not understand? Iraq is nothing compared to the true scope of the pretext that 9/11 serves.

Did you even read the article snippet i posted in my first reply? That spells it out perfectly and is all the proof you need that Iraq is a miniscule reason for 9/11 in absence of the cold war threat. So go back and read that and then read this article which I guarantee will make it crystal clear for you:

Hyping Terror For Fun, Profit - And Power

Oh yes Jack Tripper your right to smuggle and plant some WMDs into Iraq would require massive amounts of people. 10 C-5 galaxies a Divison of Marines a convoy 100 duce and a halfs and thousands of Iraq soldiers all on the take.

What was I thinking of course you would need a huge amounts of people and resources to plant and move some canisters of Chemicals

When did I ever say how many people it would take? Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? All I am saying is that it was not operationally necessary to take the enormous risk of getting caught.

FYI I know enough about what it would take to plant evidence since im a third generation Cop

Not that I ever did anything like that but I know how easy it could be done.

Oh right. So because you are a street cop you are supposed understand what it takes to pull off an international covert illegal operation involving globally banned wmd? That's pretty comical. Sorry but you might have a point if we were talking about smuggling donuts.

Sorry Shadow but Trippers right. We will be involved and on the ground in the Middle East longer than anyone of us will live. Until there is a removal of the Neocon [aka zionist] control of Washington we will do Israel's bidding for eternity. Between A.E.I. , P.N.A.C. and AIPAC the U.S. has become a Zionist puppet !

These statements will be followed by claims that I am a self hating jew and/or anti-semetic. I'm neither. I'm just an old bastard who has no time for more b***s*** !

Originally posted by Jack Tripper

When did I ever say how many people it would take? Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? All I am saying is that it was not operationally necessary to take the enormous risk of getting caught.

You were clearly implying this operation could not be done with the resources I stated. And questioned my authority on such comments.

But please since you said my explanation of how such a operation could be conducted is "Absurd" Lets hear why you are such a authority on the subject.

Originally posted by Jack Tripper
Oh right. So because you are a street cop you are supposed understand what it takes to pull off an international covert illegal operation involving globally banned wmd? That's pretty comical. Sorry but you might have a point if we were talking about smuggling donuts.

Again what makes your opinions on planting evidence so much more qualified? What do you do for a living? How many resoures are need to smuggle some cans of chemicals into a country oh great expert of covert illegal operations.

BTW a donut joke about cops classic did you think that all up by yourself.

Originally posted by Lumos

It would not have been. The reason's pretty simple:

Any Iraqi WMD findings, in order to be confirmed, would have come under international scrutiny. As Iraq's weapons programs were pretty well documented, there wasn't much room for miracles. Remember the Anthrax prior to the Patriot Act? It was identified as the Ames Strain and traced back to few possible origins (all domestic, btw). It wouldn't have been possible to simply dump some WMD in Iraq and expect international experts not to notice.

But see most international intel had these Phantom WMDs places in Iraq. It was not just US intel but also UK, Russian and France for example.

You mention being able to Indentify Anthrax strains thats true but Anthrax is a Bio weapon Chemical weapons which are still WMDs have no strains. You cant look at some VX gas and be like this is a US strain. Not as if the international communty has samples of US Bio weapons to match up to any presented to them.

Even besides that fact once again faking WMDs even Bio weapons to look like the came from Iraq is now beyond the power of this super powerful cabal behind 9-11? Its not impossible to create a new strain of say Anthrax and not tell anybody about it. It would only be a unidentified strain of Anthrax then if it popped out somwhere.

ShadowXIX, are you familiar with PNAC?

It calls for "a new Pearl Harbor" to get the American people behind invasion of Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Iran, then other countries. Funny how it's gone in that order so far, save the latter. But don't worry, they're working on that now.

Thats the whole point of this thread no WMDs in Iraq would hurt those future plans. Now when they present intel on why Iran is a threat it will be questioned and scrutinized so much more since the Iraq intel they thought was such a "Slam dunk" was flawed.

If WMDs were found then WOW US intel was right on the money and the public would buy any future intel on say Iran alot easier.

Not that I take whats posted on a the Project for the New American Century website as gospel or even the truth. You really dont think a secret Shadow goverment would have a website and be posting their plans on it do you?

[edit on 25-2-2006 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by thepresidentsbrain
November 11, 2005

" ...... According to U.S. intelligence sources, the White House exposure of Valerie Plame .........was intended to retaliate against the CIA's work in limiting the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction....... the CIA Counter-Proliferation Division prevented the shipment of binary VX nerve gas from Turkey into Iraq in November 2002. The Brewster Jennings network in Turkey was able to intercept this shipment which was intended to be hidden in Iraq and later used as evidence that Saddam Hussein was in possession of weapons of mass destruction"

There's something that should definitely be looked into here at ATS.

Anybody up for starting another thread for it?