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Muslims - Moderate or fanatical in disguise?

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posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 10:11 AM
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I think Laz is referring to the fact that something like 15 of the 19 supposed highjackers on 9/11 were Saudi, and not one was Iraqi. Anyone who has seen Faranheit 9/11 knows the little game being played there. That movie was good for opening "those" eyes.

So by this logic, we should be starting war with SA, because even though they have friendly leaders (kinda), they are a huge offender of human rights, womans rights, and they harbor a buttload of bad-guys.




posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 10:30 AM
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Lets break it down for your freedom for sum...

Saudi, not iraqi people were the actual terrorists that attacked us, yes?
(even some of the ones from UEA were originally from SA)

Suadi terrorists got there plan from the Mullahs at wahhabi mosques, that are the true rulers of the Saudi people... (the guys we talk to are just the fragile figure heads).
It is a very religious and extremist country...

the King and all his princes are a cardboard monarchy... they only exist due to allowing the Mullahs to do there worst (to us) it is the only thing that prevents a civil war. The Mullahs must support the King to get this trade of "goods/actions"
it keeps them in power, where they like to be, while they sell us off for more wealth.
We have asked SA royalty to stop the Mosques hateful terrorist teachings... they told us they cant (without civil uprising)
So the Saudi sponsored (extremist training camp) mosques INSTEAD become more prevalent in the USA, instead of less.
how did that work? because the SA king cant say NO.

So tell me now why we are their freinds? because we happen to hold hands with a blackmail weakened leader?
or is it because the basis of the state required religion wahhabi calls for our death at every chance?

neither reason does it for me... I still say we attacked the wrong ones... the saudi extremists are required to attack us... by religious law...
Iraqis have no such compulsion... (until now obviously)

The Saudis caused 9-11. they continue to sponsor soft sell terrorism schools (mosques) in America.
by the article you posted, they are teaching terrorism. Plain and Simple
You call "encourage your children to die as martyrs and attack the western satan" and showing movies of martyrs and how they prepare to die/attack just child abuse...
man... that is soft...
I call it indoctrination into extremist Islam against the west.
and it is something that i have not heard of from shia based islamic churches in the USA.

again... I ask you... do you see the enemy...?
so now do you also see who that enemy hates(ed).. (and who attacked it earlier)?
now do you see who we attacked and removed from power?
Is the picture coming clear
maybe this will help.

saudi and iraqi relations- not good

elephants in the living room... not just for thirdworlds anymore.

President Bush outlined for us very clearly who the enemy was (the extremist wahhabi muslims)
He forgot to mention that SA is their homeland and origin, or that it is the State Sponsored Religion required by law.
duck, before that one hits you on the forehead... it could hurt.


And I do apologize for some of this coming across argumentative or smug...
It is not meant to put you down in any way...
merely confidence of which I speak.

I truly feel that since YOU are the one that enlightened me to this very point, that we are probably on a very close page... same book at least.

As far as the option of who could be in charge of SA... how about not the king, or his terrorist pawns... but the good ol USA, with a little chunk of the holy land going to egypt (mecca/medina).
And i honestly have no problem with the wholesale genocide of suicidal terrorist thugs... anyone who doesn't want to convert to (relatively peaceful) shia, can line up and we will pay for the bullet.



[edit on 28-2-2006 by LazarusTheLong]



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by DaFunk13
Anyone who has seen Faranheit 9/11 knows the little game being played there.


Dafunk;

Fahrenheit 911 was a comlete fraud orchestrated by an extreme-left spinster. Almost every salient point he attempted to use to foist his extreme left liberal ideological veiws have been completely debunked as total lies and spin!!
This is why the only publicity he's been getting lately is whateve he can muster from his website. Even liberals have separated themselves from this slob.

If you're going to make points, please back them with legitimate sources.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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I am well aware that Michael Moore is a turd my friend.

The movie did do well at illustrating the past and current relationships we have with the Saudis, did it not?

Everything else is indeed crap, but so is Fox News. Everything your little electronic picture box tells you is more than likely a lie conceived only to deceive your cognitions...and your wallet.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 01:47 PM
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Just an aside...

I didn't get my info from the movie...
I got it from the horses mouth...
Bushes speeches

he just forgot that we aren't stupid and could connect two simple dots

Ohhh... and for the stats on Saudi Religion being the very religion that Bush told us all to hate (extremism- specifically wahhabi)
here ya go...I am done with ya...
let TIME tell you the story.
Wahhabi- toxic religion



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 01:59 PM
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Although I doubt it was intended for me...thanks for the link Laz. I learned something. And to whomever is "instructing" me of the legitamacy of THAT movie....we are all aware that it is as left-leaning as it gets. That has been beat to death. Anyone who learns politics from more than CNN, Fox, or that movie knows that it is to be taken with a grain of salt.

This said...the movie at least opened a lot of eyes. It offered a perspective, albeit skewed a bit, of a side that was growing more and more silent. A little liberal whining does wonders for a nation. How many average citizens even knew about our dealings with SA prior?



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Saudi, not iraqi people were the actual terrorists that attacked us, yes?
(even some of the ones from UEA were originally from SA)


WRONG!!! Those who have and continue to attack us are individuals who wear no uniform, represent no nation, and carry no flag. They claim no institution of law as theirs except Islam. The hijackers of 911 were Al Qaeda; a group led by an ex-Saudi as he was ostracized by, and forced to leave Saudi Arabia.


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Suadi terrorists got there plan from the mullahs...


This is also incorrect. The 911 terrorist attacks were planned and executed by Al Qaeda.


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
We have asked SA royalty to stop the Mosques hateful terrorist teachings... they told us they cant (without civil uprising)
So the Saudi sponsored (extremist training camp) mosques INSTEAD become more prevalent in the USA, instead of less.


Irrespective of what's happening in SA, we need to focus on what's happening here.


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
So tell me now why we are their freinds? because we happen to hold hands with a blackmail weakened leader?


Who said we're friends? They are an ally, but only because we have a vested interest in SA: We are engaged in commerce with them; sort of like having to pay the utilities bills. I don't like paying for electricity and if I had my choice, I wouldn't. But I need electricity in my home, as an example. In return, we agreed to provide security for SA if they were ever to be attacked. I agree with what you said earlier: That if we could somehow ween ourselves from foriegn sources of energy, I think many arab nations would fall apart and implode.


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Iraqis have no such compulsion... (until now obviously)


If you choose to ignore the threat Saddam Hussein posed; well, that's you're choice.


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
The Saudis caused 9-11. they continue to sponsor soft sell terrorism schools (mosques) in America.


Let's say an American Skinhead goes on a murder spree and kills 10 black people, including children. Do we then round up all skinheads we can because of their ideology of hatred? What crime could they be charged with?

I agree with your sentiments. But if we attacked SA the backlash from our western friends would be extreme as our actions would directly affect their oil imports. You think some countries are mad at us now? How many do you think would be mad at us then?


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
You call "encourage your children to die as martyrs and attack the western satan" and showing movies of martyrs and how they prepare to die/attack just child abuse...
man... that is soft...


What other crime could they be charged with before they commit an act of terrorism? There are no laws against the expression of hatred.


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
again... I ask you... do you see the enemy...?
so now do you also see who that enemy hates(ed).. (and who attacked it earlier)?


Yes. And they are within our borders and are a growing threat!!


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
elephants in the living room... not just for thirdworlds anymore.


Yep. So I suggest focussing on those elephants in our living room. Not someone else's.



Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
He forgot to mention that SA is their homeland and origin, ...


Your forgetting that there have been a few terrorists who were born and raised here in the US: Jose Padilla, Adam "Gadahn", and John Walker Lindh to name the most notorious. Adam Gadahn is still at large and likely commiting acts of terrorism. Let's say he kills 500 people in England in an attack. Should England then attack us because he was indoctrinated in his extremism here?



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 03:08 PM
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Skinheads, black panthers, flying monkeys with yellow hats...
if they are openly training men how to attack us in training camps then yes, that is outlawed...

I now get your point on the attackers... but ask yourself what AL Queda is... Bush told us it was born from extremist islam... Wahhabi. Which he also pointed out is the main recruiting group for AQ... sorry for leading the cart there... but they are the same vehicle... one is the horse, one the cart...

Of course we all know by now, that it was originally a creation of the CIA during the USSR occupation of Afghanistan...
but hey... I wont argue with the president.


[edit on 28-2-2006 by LazarusTheLong]



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 06:36 PM
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Fjordman: Muslim Rape Epidemic in Sweden and Norway - Authorities Look the Other Way

fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/muslim-rape-epidemic-in-sweden-and.html


I don't want respect and i don't give respect, i just want to be left alone, and if muslims come here and rape and kill then they must not be shocked if they get kicked out before being punished the right and hard way.



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Winterhammer
Fjordman: Muslim Rape Epidemic in Sweden and Norway - Authorities Look the Other Way

fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/muslim-rape-epidemic-in-sweden-and.html


I don't want respect and i don't give respect, i just want to be left alone, and if muslims come here and rape and kill then they must not be shocked if they get kicked out before being punished the right and hard way.


You may not want respect but you will give it here, as accords our T&C.

BTW, are you Fjordman?



posted on Feb, 28 2006 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Beachcoma said

most muslims just go to the mosque to pray


Yes Beachcoma ... but this is what they listen to each time they go -
www.freedomhouse.org...


Really? How many times have you gone to the mosque? Do you know how we pray? It's not like church you know, where you sit around and listen to sermons. I've told you, sermons are only on Fridays, 30 minutes at that, hardly each time. Also, this isn't like Catholicism where you HAVE TO GO to the house of worship. You can pray at home, except on Friday during Dzuhur (afternoon, one hour on average) for males.

Even the Maghrib sermons are not a guaranteed occasion, not to mention it's not compulsory.I don't deny that there are occasions where the sermons are about "the infidel Zionists" or the "corrupt west", I've mentioned this before. It happens occasionally, not each time as you have said. And as I have said before, most of it is baseless and most people go to the mosque to pray. Not to listen to how evil the America is -- your government's doing that job all on it's own through their actions in the middle east, no need for sermons to show us.

Please, don't speak of Islam as though you are the foremost expert on the subject. With those kind of generalizations, is it any wonder us muslims tend to generalize you westerners?

[edit on 28-2-2006 by Beachcoma]

[edit on 28-2-2006 by Beachcoma]



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
how evil the America is -- your government's doing that
job all on it's own through their actions in the middle east,


Oh yes .. big bad evil America.


Americans have died to liberate Kuwait.
Americans have lost limbs, sight, hearing and health to liberate Kuwait.
Americans have died to liberate Iraq.
Americans have lost limbs, sight, hearing and health to liberate Iraq.
Americans have stopped Saddam from stealing billions in $$ from Iraqis.
Americans have stopped the genocide of Kurds.
Americans have stopped the mass rape/rape rooms in Iraq.
Americans have stopped the torture of Iraqi Olympic athletes.
Americans have spent (and continue to spend) BILLIONS in AIDS research
for Africa - which includes the middle eastern country of Egypt.
Americans have given billions in aid to Egypt and the Palestinians
and has 'forgiven debt' that Egypt accumulated with American companies.
Americans have spent billions of dollars our own money to help
those in the middle east - and many have given their very lives.

We should cut all aid. All financial and physical aid. Cut it.
Let those of 'the religion of peace' have at it. Wonder what
would be left? Who cares anymore. It would take care of
most of the world's problems. Let them go it on their own.

Not one American penny more! Not one more American life!
No more aid. No more help. Sounds great to me.


[edit on 3/1/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Americans have died to liberate Iraq.
Americans have lost limbs, sight, hearing and health to liberate Iraq.
Americans have stopped Saddam from stealing billions in $$ from Iraqis.


Please! "Liberate Iraq"? Have you looked at a news item lately??? The US may have stopped Saddam from stealing money but now they're doing it! Same with rape and torture! Yes, Americans are now raping and torturing Iraqis.

Regardless of the good America (the US government and military) has done around the world, that does not negate the fact that it has done more than its share to attract the hatred of the people of the middle east.

Your excuses sound suspiciously like those of a battered (but loyal) wife. "Yes, he beats me and the kids, but he loves us and pays the rent! He takes care of us. He's a good man! He takes care of his mother."

When will she realize that the man doesn't care about her and the best thing for her to do is leave him?


Originally posted by Beachcoma
Not to listen to how evil the America is -- your government's doing that job all on it's own through their actions in the middle east, no need for sermons to show us.


Notice, FF, it's the government that Beachcoma criticizes. Not "America". They're 2 different things. The sooner people realize that, the better.



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 08:41 AM
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There you go again, FlyersFan, that's the second time you've given a knee-jerk response through an out-of-context quote to what I've wrote. :shk:

Let's see what I said, again, shall we?


Originally posted by Beachcoma
I don't deny that there are occasions where the sermons are about "the infidel Zionists" or the "corrupt west", I've mentioned this before. It happens occasionally, not each time as you have said. And as I have said before, most of it is baseless and most people go to the mosque to pray. Not to listen to how evil the America is -- your government's doing that job all on it's own through their actions in the middle east, no need for sermons to show us.


Now in it's context can you see how that bit fits? In a nutshell: there is no need for sermons on how America is doing the middle-east wrong. You can arrive at that conclusion by just watching the news. How many countries have America invaded in the middle-east now? What about those you plan to invade? Or threaten to invade?

No need for sermons. The newspaper is enough.

As for the good that America has done and why it appears to go unnoticed, well, here's a quote by a fellow ATSer that sums this phenomena up pretty well:


Originally posted by LoganCale
The good things people do usually go unnoticed and the bad things are called to public attention. And there's good reason for that. Because when good things are happening, there's no problem. When bad things are happening it's a problem and the bad things need to stop.


Now do you get it?

Anyway, back on topic, muslims go to the mosque mainly to pray. Ocassionally there are sermons. And occasionally the sermons contain anti-American or anti-Zionists tones. Just occasionally, maybe like out of 20 sermons, 1-3 have some of those sentiments.

Sermons don't happen each time, as some have asserted here. And not every sermon is about America or Zionists or whatever else is going on in the world -- that's the arena of the news media.

P.S. - BH is absolutely right, I view the American government and the American people as two separate entities. And I don't care whether it's Republicans or Democrats controlling your government, to me they are one and the same. They are just split into two to give the American people the illusion of choice. I can't speak for how other muslims feel about it, but that is what I believe.

[edit on 1-3-2006 by Beachcoma]



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Yes, Americans are now raping and torturing Iraqis.


BH;

I'd like to respond to your post in its entirety; but first, we need to resolve this seemingly emotionally based outburst of yours of which I cannot find any evidence. Please post a legitimate link where it shows Americans are raping and torturing Iraqis.

FFS



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 09:06 AM
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Deleted my link...dont want banned....

[edit on 1-3-2006 by DaFunk13]



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Please post a legitimate link where it shows Americans are raping and torturing Iraqis.


DaFunk13, I appreciate your support of my statements, but I think you should U2U that site to FFS and take it out of your post. I think it's against TAC.

Thanks.



[edit on 1-3-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
...Not to listen to how evil the America is -- your government's doing that job all on it's own through their actions in the middle east, no need for sermons to show us.


So Beachcoma;

You believe my government is evil? Keep in mind that while the government is an institution, of which I am a part, it is also made up of hundreds of thousands of peacefull and freedom-loving Americans. What evidence/reasoning do you have that supports your belief that the US government is evil?



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 09:40 AM
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Beachcoma...
I personally appreciate your perspective on this, and your intellectual review...

I would pose one thought that might help focus where Muslims can critisize.

I am not bothered by Mosques that occassionally tell of how this administration, and some past ones. have caused conflict and have tampered with middle east policy. It has been an elephant in our living room as well. But I am bothered by the talk of the west being the great Satan, that must be abolished (dont laugh, that is what we are taught).

back to the topic:
But to be specific, this administration is more war mongerish, and more tied with the military industrial complex than any other in past history. We have so many players that make bucks off the war... and at relitively high positions of decision making. I am not even talking about Bush... but his string holders specifically.
Our past presidents have warned us what would happen, if we allowed the military industrial complex to have too much play... and now look... surprise surprise... they went to war.
arms dealing has long been a cash cow for America (but more so for other countries) but now, the greedy military industry has the power, and they are gettin while the gettin is good.
all at the civilian populations expense.

I understand where Muslims would be angry, and would protest... but Americans have trouble understanding why some mosques have an open and agressive policy of terror training...

From reading the perspective of the undercover reporters article, It seems rather blantant that there is a "network" of these "after prayer" meetings that encourage attacks, and even encourage martyrdom for children.
I grant you... these were saudi mosques...
but (and i dont know if you read the article) honestly, can you say that the mosques you are familiar with, haven't encouraged attacks on America? (government, or the country, and its people)

Also: do you feel that muslims are more angry of our administrations actions, or jeolous/angry of our freedoms, and prosperity, and even sins of those freedoms.

the point of which being: Do you feel that the west and islam could be at peace, if the west stopped getting involved in middle east policy (with the exception of normal trade, and support of Israel within limits).

anyone else feel free to chime in...



posted on Mar, 1 2006 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
So Beachcoma;

You believe my government is evil? Keep in mind that while the government is an institution, of which I am a part, it is also made up of hundreds of thousands of peacefull and freedom-loving Americans. What evidence/reasoning do you have that supports your belief that the US government is evil?


Ah yes, it is of course an institution, but who are the ones leading the institution and making the policies? Those are the ones I find despicable. The one's pulling the strings and making the big decisions. And I don't find them evil, just despicable. You took my words out of context as well. Care to read my post again? See where the word "evil" fits?

I don't really want to get into this, it's rather off-topic. But on topic, your government leaders' policy of interference in many muslim countries in the middle-east under all kinds of false pretext (missing WMDs, spreading democracy, et. al) has a lot to do with the general anti-American view some muslims have.



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