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Can we establish a 'fact'?

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posted on Feb, 19 2006 @ 06:47 PM
I think it would be fair to say that as a resident of the United States I am under 'attack' by the majority of the representatives of the United States Government, and by the federal 'government' as a whole. It is clear to me that the overwhelming majority of this system's 'thought process' has been geared towards the industry, and they have no problem protecting the people who are conducting experiments on me.

If the unanymous decision of this forum determines the same thing, would it matter? or would it be a 'statement' that could be used properly to describe this governments actions towards us?

Or would it be a fact ? Something we would all have the right to 'say' and respond to their actions accordingly?

Regardless of your location-from what you can see, do you believe that as a Nation of people as a whole, Americans are being attacked by their own 'body' of representatives? their source of "freedom and protection"?

Your opinion is appreciated.

posted on Feb, 19 2006 @ 07:12 PM
I'm of the belief that even the hardest facts can be merely popular perceptions. It was a fact at one point that the world was flat. We can measure, double-check, verify, etc. but then we still have our senses to question. Even if a million people agree that something is a fact, they could conceivably be wrong. That leaves us with probability. Even probability, however, is dependent upon the number of variables we're aware of, and how comprehensive our understanding of those variables is. Even if we knew 100% of everything there was to know about all the perceivable and conceivable variables when trying to establish the probability of something, there would still remain the possibility that there might exist a far larger number of variables that would detract from or contradict that probability. Hence, we can't prove if what you're asking about is a fact or a supposition. I say this not because I believe a general truth is impossible to discover or unravel, but simply to illustrate the point that if facts depend – much like reflections – on angle and subjective perception, then even those we think we’re “in the know” by “realizing” or that we have fought hard to find, can be manipulated in the right hands.

That said, I personally feel that we, in as much as we are free thinking, autonomous human beings, are indeed under attack by certain forces within an entity or "movement" if you will. Note that I do not say "by our government," because I think if we were to know everything that was going on, we would find that the people we feel are most responsible for this "attack" are themselves under "attack" as well to the same extent that we are.

Consider the above suggested permeability of "fact" when combined with the wealth, influence, connections, and resources some people in the world possess and are capable of exercising, in the context of both we and those being used to attack us, being equally under attack. Belief is the most powerful force in the world. It can lay waste to civilizations, tear asunder the strongest loves and loyalties, and shake the foundations of reality itself. It is also a power that no one is immune to. If one believes anything, even in something as simple as the right to exist, then that belief can be used against them or against others, under the right circumstances. He or she who controls belief, and is practiced at playing the beliefs of everyone from presidents to pebbles against one another, controls the world.


posted on Feb, 19 2006 @ 10:16 PM
I must admit I'm curious: what kind of experiments are being done to you?

Other than that, I'll just say this: the republic is a rather efficient form of government. A chosen minority that makes decisions for the whole by the consent of the majority. Makes perfectly good sense because the average Joe isn't disciplined enough to make his own decisions. People are lazy by nature; look at the problems we have with murder, drugs, car accidents and theft. Hell, we can't even get Joe to vote. Don't blame your government, blame human nature.

I think it's odd that, despite the fact that members of our government have advanced education, records of military service and work countless hours of overtime, the average Joe demonizes the US goverment as a vector to corporate greed and widespread Satanism.

As far as a fact, well, no one here is accredited enough to make a fact. If ten beer buddies get together and decide that the Washington Redskins are the greatest football team in history, its still just an opinion. But if the RAND Corporation says the NY Giants are the greatest, well, I'll go with the Giants.

Really now, what kind of experiments?

posted on Feb, 19 2006 @ 10:37 PM
There is no way in hell the NY Giants are the greatest football team in history...everyone knows that's the Green Bay Packers...(I work for RAND by the way)

Okay, seriously now.
What exactly are these experiments we're talking about here? Military abductions? CIA abductions? Alien abductions? Dick Cheney abductions? I think the average American is actually quite normal, beelive me, watch enough political ads and political debate and I'll not give a damn either.
Human beigns are lazy, our society is no different from Rome's.
Just look at television, intelligent programming like the X-files, Soprano's and The Sheild are beign replaced with droll like American Idol and NY Giants games. (Sorry, can't help it)
And then there the kind of people who visit ATS all of the time and who live off of conspiracy theories. Butnow we're seeign a whole new breed of Americans.
Those who blame their government for all of the worlds evil yet refuse to do anything themselves to make the world better. These are the first people to shout from the rooftops that the US government is the parent of all the worlds death, famine, war, disease, poverty, strife, turmoil and overall depression. Yet they'll also be the first to whine for a handout when they refuse to better educate themselves and contribute to society because out there, they heard some ocnspiracy theory that the government was out to get them therefore they don't have to worry about contributing to the greater good, they now have a ready made excuse to be useless.
I like conspiracy theories too. Here's a list of those I beleive:
The US Civil War was never over slavery but rather over unfair tarrif taxes and the Treasury Departments greed.
Roswell was the crash of an Alien craft and the cover up continues to this day.
JFK was murdered by LBJ to get us into Vietnam despite the fact that LBJ was a Communist
Joseph McCarthy has been vilified by Hollywood and the media for decades because Hollywood and the media really ARE Communist
Robert Kenneddy was assasinated by a gunmen who was a project of MKULTRA
The Majestic-12 papers: If they themselves aren't legit, something like that has to exist.
Ted Kenneddy was really the stunt double for Jabba the Hutt
The NY Giants are all Reptilians.
One poster made a great point about our government not beign the true evil ones. Anyone who villifies Bush and co. yet praises the far left is obviously a hack for said political persusaion: I have far more respect for someone who distrusts all politicians then someone who simply distrusts the conservative ones.
It's a shame that in this society, military service, government service and the like is villified while selfish pursuits and the act of getting "laid" 24/7 is highly esteemed. As a whole, the American people have forgotten the precepts of honor, duty, nobility and gentlemanlyness and ladieness.
As afar as those who villify the industrial sector, remember, if it wasn't for the industrial sector, noen of us would live the fabulous life quality we now have. It's only because of ruthless businessmen and the like that we have the wealth that we do. And your ability to gripe nonstop about the evils of the US government are thanks to some redneck who proudly wears the stars and stripes on his shoulder and goes overseas to ensure that all of our wars ARE fought overseas and not on this soil.

posted on Feb, 20 2006 @ 06:01 AM
Indeed. It is the same "black or white" mentality we accuse our leaders of practicing that those "attacking" both us and them rely upon to keep us guessing, because they know we will be all too willing to demonize whatever party affiliation or political stance we disagree with the most. For the same reason that politicians in general cannot be trusted in the ways we would hope they should, we must also assume some of them can be and that the dividing line that determines which we do is not related to, or dependent upon, party affiliation at all. Everyone is born the same, but in different circumstances. It's the forces and domains we pass through and under the influence of in life - from the nameless nobody without a home to the leader of the "free" world - that can skillfully influence what we become, believe, and act upon.

If I were to stand here and proclaim my anti-war stance yet define any politician or political party that supports war in and of itself as evil or the root of the problems I'm opposed to, I would be the biggest hypocrite walking the face of the Earth. I can't exercise the belief in compassion on one hand, and hate someone on the other. On the flip side, one can't support war for the purpose of liberating an enslaved people, and hate everything that is even remotely liberal-seeming. We all need to think carefully about our hardened views if we are to have any hope of discovering for ourselves what's going on, and who is responsible - if that's even possible.

posted on Feb, 20 2006 @ 02:40 PM
After some research, I think this link alone would have been the best possible reply here today.
Simply, we do not know what we are eating, because 'they' will never admit to what is going into our food.

Originally posted by AceWombat04

That said, I personally feel that we, in as much as we are free thinking, autonomous human beings, are indeed under attack by certain forces within an entity or "movement" if you will. Note that I do not say "by our government," because I think if we were to know everything that was going on, we would find that the people we feel are most responsible for this "attack" are themselves under "attack" as well to the same extent that we are.

I totally agree with you, sometimes it feels as if our representatives had the ability to make decisions based on the long term future of their own children that they would. But the 'gene giants' don't control their minds, they just threaten to take money out of their pockets. So our representatives are not 'helpless' against this entity, they have chosen to become this entity's whores.

Recently Senator John McCain appeared on the 'Late Night' show with David Letterman, and I only caught part of the interview.
I would like to find the transcript for the entire conversation because the words he used to describe our 'situation' were very unique.
Early in the discussion he did state that 'this system is broken', and in his closing remarks made this comment " I cannot take responsibility for what is happening to us ".

If anybody know's how to access the transcript of this conversation, I would greatly appreciate it, their dialog alone was very enlightening.

The experiments that I'm talking about are the one's being conducted by our major drug companies. Not that MONSANTO represents the only labratory conducting these test, but since this one company has taken over such a large amount of 'control' at the white house, I will use their recent activities as an example.
Also keep in mind that MONSANTO and DUPONT are two names, one entity.
"The GENE Giants" ,
instead of the NY Giants.

It is understandable to perceive that this government does not have the ability to regulate a company when it possess such a tremendous amount of influence worldwide, then again they wouldn't have the ability to force their will upon the rest of the world without the direct support of this administration.

Enter .... Donald Rumsfeld.

Instead of adding my own colorfull commentary about this mongrel, the information in this link should prove that his primary concern is defending this government and protecting MONSANTO from their actions against 'the people'.

Prior to being the Supreme Court Judge who put GW Bush in office,Clarence Thomas was Monsanto's lawyer.

When this man was being interviewed, "sexual harassment" allegations dominated the questions prior to his appoinment. Congress had no problem with his previous employer or the fact that his former employer was one of the most controversial DRUG Dealers in the world.
They not only have the ability to do so, they are taking full advantage of this opportunity to manipulate our genetic structure. They 'influence' approx. 80% of the seed and planted crops in the WORLD.
All of this was irrelevant compared to his sexual advances towards Anita Hill.
Here is an outline of the controversy they 'showcased' to hide the fact that he worked for our primary source of MAD-Science.

Former U.S. Secretary of Agriculture (Anne Veneman) was on the Board of Directors of Monsanto's Calgene Corporation.
Anne Margaret Veneman is the Bush administration's choice to be the next Executive Director of the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)."
The Executive Director of UNICEF !
the following took place under her 'watch'.....

In order for the FDA to determine if Monsanto's synthetic bovine growth hormones were safe or not, Monsanto was required to submit a scientific report on that topic. Margaret Miller, one of Monsanto's researchers put the report together. Shortly before the report submission, Miller left Monsanto and was hired by the FDA. Her first job for the FDA was to determine whether or not to approve the report she wrote for Monsanto. In short, Monsanto approved its own report. Assisting Miller was another former Monsanto researcher, Susan Sechen. Deciding whether or not rBGH-derived milk should be labeled fell under the jurisdiction of another FDA official, Michael Taylor, who previously worked as a lawyer for Monsanto.

The U.S. Dept of Justice files charges against MONSANTO, and this is how they handle it.

Monsanto faced both criminal and civil charges from the Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) in the United States. The MNC agreed to pay $1 million to the Department of Justice, adopt internal compliance measures, and cooperate with continuing civil and criminal investigations. It will also pay $500,000 to the SEC to settle the bribe charge and other related violations.

Basically, they 'officially' pay off the Dept. of Justice to settle bribery charges.

Somebody asked me earlier, "why don't you just buy another brand of milk?"

The US FDA not only refuses to require labelling of hormone-laced products, but in 1994 published a rule that effectively barred dairies from printing 'BST-free' on milk products.

I understand the examples that both of you gave showing that a 'fact' is almost impossible for people to establish. But would it be possible to prove that this administration is opening the door for the GENE GIANTS to molest our genetic structure to their greatest advantage?
They not only open the door, they have created what is commonly known as "The Revolving Door" .

So I guess instead of saying that we are being attacked by our government, wouldn't it be fair to say that our government is 'affording the opportunity' for the drug industry to attack, or molest all of us?


Here is a great link that will answer the majority of your questions concerning (GE) crops.

Who ensures that GE crops can be safely eaten by humans or animals?

The FDA is responsible for ensuring that all the foods we eat are safe. However, the FDA does not have any special legal authority to approve GE crops before they are commercialized. Thus, FDA regulates GE food and feed crops through a voluntary notification process rather than by a mandatory pre-market approval process. In that voluntary process, the developer of a GE crop submits to FDA a summary of data that shows that the GE crop is substantially equivalent to its traditionally bred counterpart. FDA reviews the submitted data and alerts the developer to any concerns it has about the developer's food safety assessment.

The company's disregard for corporate social responsibility is summed up in a quote from Phil Angell, Monsanto's director of corporate communications, to the New York Times, October 25, 1998: "Monsanto should not have to vouchsafe the safety of biotech food. Our interest is in selling as much of it as possible. Assuring its safety is [the U.S. Food and Drug Administration]'s job."1

Since the FDA does not regulate (GE) crops, and MONSANTO does not take responsibility for their products,
doesn't that prove THIS Government is providing the opportunity for a GENE GIANT to attack US?

Originally posted by SpecAgentDW
As afar as those who villify the industrial sector, remember, if it wasn't for the industrial sector, noen of us would live the fabulous life quality we now have. It's only because of ruthless businessmen and the like that we have the wealth that we do. And your ability to gripe nonstop about the evils of the US government are thanks to some redneck who proudly wears the stars and stripes on his shoulder and goes overseas to ensure that all of our wars ARE fought overseas and not on this soil.

Remember, 1 in 2 American men and 1 in 3 American women will develop some form of CANCER in their lifetimes, and CHILDREN living in major metropolitan areas have lost 80% of their LUNG FUNCTION.
This information is provided to US by the USG, so if you take into consideration the amount of 'truth' they are sharing with us, the facts about our health is even more frightening.
It might suit you to blame it on the 'rednecks' if you believe it is beneficial to the American people to have all of our wars fought overseas. But who is to blame when we find ourselves in a situation where the American people will not fight for themselves ?
The WAR I am explaining to all of you, is the most deadly event that this world has ever known. The worst part about it is that the 'enemy' has not even been identified with yet, and most Americans, the victims of this war, are not willing to discuss what is killing them,
much less entertain the possibility of making them STOP!

Everybody is 'afraid' to speak out or discuss the potential of saving their own lives.
THIS War has not even started.

posted on Feb, 20 2006 @ 03:51 PM
"We are confronted with the most powerful technology the world has ever known, and it is being rapidly deployed with almost no thought whatsoever to its consequences."
Dr Suzanne Wuerthele, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) toxicologist

If you are reading this thread, would you say this woman's description of MONSANTO's actions could be described as an 'attack'?

posted on Feb, 20 2006 @ 04:08 PM
I tell ya submers...

If you want true conspiracy...
The FDA and EPA are rife with it...

but it isn't as sexy as Terrorism, or Aliens... so most wont get excited about it...

but if you want to do something good for america... then keep spreading the word...

posted on Feb, 20 2006 @ 10:26 PM
I can't remember where i read it, but I read something to the effect that by the time were in our fifties EVERY American male will have at least one form of cancer.
It's pretty obvious considering all the damned chemicals we eat in our food. We're embalmed before we even die.
submersible, I finally get what you meant by beign experimented on. But it's not by the US government, it's be corporations and certain secret cabals of power who hope to one day fully control the US government.
My own government doesn't scare me, it's the guys I don't hear about that do.

posted on Feb, 20 2006 @ 11:41 PM

I have no idea what the opening statement was about, something about a consensus creating a fact by a show of hands.
The next post by the initiator seemed to indicate this should be in medical conspiracies.
What I do know is that it is not a WoT thread.
If the convolution belongs elsewhere, please take it there.

posted on Feb, 21 2006 @ 11:18 AM
this thread is about the American people being drugged and molested like sheep tied to a stump, and the USG is holding the rope.

But since Thomas Crowne doesn't think it belongs in the WOT thread, I guess it is appropriate to bury these facts in a forum that is very unlikely to be read.

Good Job T.C.

The American people appreciate you effort to keep them burried in your ignorance!

WE are dropping off like flies dude ! What is your problem ?

posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 01:00 PM
The truth get's fired

Letter from Representative Karen Clark:
Friends, last week the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency forcibly retired Dr. Fardin Oliaei from her 16 years of employment there in a mediated settlement. Dr. Oliaei is a highly respected research scientist, whose work on PBDEs, PFCs, and other emerging toxic contaminants is pioneering research that has been invaluable to other scientists and citizens throughout the world.

The Minnesota Pollution Control Agency placed extreme obstacles in the path of Dr. Oliaei's scientific work and ultimately forced her to resign. This politicization of science robs our society of the benefits of scientific inquiry, whether in public health or protection of the environment. Without our knowledge, Minnesotans have been exposed to these highly toxic, bioaccumulative, and persistant chemicals that 3M has been manufacturing and dumping waste from for the last 50 years. These persistent PFCs have ended up in the Mississippi River, in residential well water, fish, soil, air and consumer products, and yet Minnesotans have been denied the right-to-know their particular exposure risks by an agency that is supposed to provide that protection. Even though 3M stopped manufacturing this chemical in 2002, its persistence in our environment is extremely high, as found by Dr. Oliaei's recent research. Unfortunately, 3M has left a dangerous legacy for generations, but if the public knows about it we can begin to invest in clean-up and hopefully in effective prevention efforts. We urge that the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency not be allowed to get away with their unacceptable and unethical behavior in this situation. Since the MPCA did a pre-emptive press release last Friday, February 3, it is important that the public respond immediately.

posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 06:09 PM
I have a comment about facts but first I want to say this to Wombat04.
"Wombat04 this is BatCave6, do you copy?, over."
Your response, I just read, to the question of 'facts' was a really well written and obviously thought-out response. It was one of the best I've read in here and there are some clever folks on this site.
Einstein put it best for my money when trying to explain relativistic concepts to a writer.
I will paraphrase to save space:" Vell, I zupose zat for most peoples [reality] is a matter of perception, Ja?".
I think that time "whatever that may be" (Hawking) effects the qualified definition of a fact. Fact: the sun always rises in the East! We have known from which directions the sun rises for thousands of years but have only recently discovered the reason it appears to do so. Will the earth always rotate in the directioin we have arbitrarily decided is to the East? Probably, but there is no gaurantee that it will and if it were to change suddenly we would surely all perish. It it were to change change slowly we would likewise perish but it would take longer for us to burn so that there would be no-one to freeze when rotstion ceases. But, for now (time) it's a fact that the earth rotates to the east.
So, what we call a fact, just like WonBat04 says, changes when new information is verified. At the time new information is verifird which changes our original assumption we throw out the old and adopt the new. But, we only do this if we are liberal. Fubdamentalists ("conservatives") are unable to make such a redical change because they do not possess the basic intelligence to understand the need do so. This is why the term "liberal is a derisive term only to stupid people. You might see who uses liberal as an insult next week and count the times and remember the people. There is knowledge in observation. This method of thinking is also known as...the scientific method...and accounts for every advance in human thinking throughout history. Obviously some advances are made by accident and even mistake but to reccognize them and understand them we must change our old (incorrect) assumptions and adopt a new understanding.
I'll tell Ya one fact, The Dallas Cowboys is the bestest football team in the hole, intire NFL. Oh! another one, President Bush is a leader, or is that leeder?. Oh! another one, Dick Cheney is not a girly-boy!
I have other facts if you like.

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