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Subverting Democracy

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posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Be sure to let us all know when the government propose to remove your vote, ok?
[edit on 16-4-2006 by sminkeypinkey]


I wont be able to vote for my regional Euro MP if they put me on yellow rating on my ID card. No point voting in the general election because they just rubber stamp Europe.




posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by AdamJ
I wont be able to vote for my regional Euro MP if they put me on yellow rating on my ID card.


- Yeah, very interesting idea you have in your own head there.......not that you'd be able to refer to any actual British law that says that, hmmmm?


No point voting in the general election because they just rubber stamp Europe.


- Interesting take on events that one, of course you might care to explain exactly how the (long) history of opt-outs and derrogation(s) are just one long tale of "rubber stamping", huh?



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 04:27 PM
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i like to look at the future, i suspect very much this is what will happen. There is no law yet because the future hasnt happened yet.

We have such a history of opt-outs yet we are deeper in the EU than any point before? somethings wrong with your understanding. I suppose the EU just doesnt exist and we do what we want.

[edit on 16-4-2006 by AdamJ]



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by AdamJ
i like to look at the future, i suspect very much this is what will happen. There is no law yet because the future hasnt happened yet.


- So what it boils down to is that you're making claims which are solely based on you just playing a little game imagining and inventing any situation you find frightening, no matter how unlikely or remote the possibility?

Sorry but I find reality is demanding and difficult enough without that kind of groundless fantasy.


We have such a history of opt-outs yet we are deeper in the EU than any point before?


- If you mean our level of cooperation is greater than ever before then yes, it is.
And so what?

That is a perfectly natural (and actually desireable) effect brought about by decades of real cooperation and shared values the resultant convergence that has brought.

It does not indicate any kind of dictation or powerlessness.

The UK has full representation and voting rights at every level of the EU.


somethings wrong with your understanding.


- From your previous comments I suspect your understanding is clouded with silly notions of a super-powerful fascist state (despite the reality being the exact opposite) out to get you at every turn.


I suppose the EU just doesnt exist


- What? Where do you get that from? Why do you say such silly things?

Of course the EU exists.


and we do what we want.



......and yes, when it comes down to it we do choose to "do what we want", actually.

'We' are (as 'we' have been for decades now) offered the choice to vote for national political parties either 'sceptical' of Europe and the EU or even those utterly hostile and with the stated objective of leaving.
We, as a nation, choose to reject that choice, everytime.

'We' continue to choose to benefit to a greater degree than 'we' could alone by agreeing common standards, working together and cooperating to mutually benefit from that collective action with our EU partners.

'We' could leave at any time, but thankfully 'we' are still a democracy and 'the people' show no sign whatsoever of taking such an insane and self-harming step.


[edit on 16-4-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 07:25 PM
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I just think you live in a fantasy land.
You are biased by your political beliefs so you make up these arguments to support them.

The colour coding on ID cards comes from a reliable source but im not about to disclose it. I didnt just pull it out of thin air.

I dont believe this ID card has been introduced to benefit me, i think its been introduced for a different reason and we are being lied to again by government.
Everywhere i turn thats the way it looks.



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by AdamJ
I just think you live in a fantasy land.
You are biased by your political beliefs so you make up these arguments to support them.


- Well the thing is AdamJ that I have some actual political experience, it is not just a question of mere 'belief'.

You can call that fantasy all you like but (whether you believe it or not) I have met several Government Ministers (tory and Labour) over the years and have been involved (in a small way) in British politics.

Your daydreams of an all-powerful controlling state is, frankly, far off of the mark.
Politicians simply do not have the degree of control you imagine and if they did they surely would make a far better 'fist' of their time 'in power' than they actually do.

But to keep to topic;
you originally accussed me (in a sideways comment to Lanton and Astronomer68 and not one actually put to me) that I was "spouting rubbish for some reason" when I pointed out that this Bill had been publicised in the British newspapers and that it would be amended if Parliament thought it appropriate.
As it turns out it has been and I was not the one just "spouting rubbish" afterall.

You are now trying to broaden things out with silly claims about the EU (and 25 nation sized organisation you believe to be so 'powerful' yet it actually operates on a budget of around £590 - £600billion, compared to a British budget of approx £507 Billions!)

(Treasury figures show the British 'budget' at £507billions in 2006 - www.hm-treasury.gov.uk... )


The colour coding on ID cards comes from a reliable source but im not about to disclose it. I didnt just pull it out of thin air.


- Sorry but 'secret sources' backed by mere assertion hold no water with me.


I dont believe this ID card has been introduced to benefit me, i think its been introduced for a different reason and we are being lied to again by government.
Everywhere i turn thats the way it looks.


- I suspect no matter what happened you'd probably take the same attitude.

I do not suggest governments are purer than pure (politics is often afterall a grubby and dirty business of compromise and deals) but I am often surprised at those who will rush to clutch any conspiracy theory out there with far less scrutiny than the efforts they will go to to condemn their politicians.

In the UK we are lucky enough not have travelled so far down the road of 'immoveable corporate politicians', all the British parties are crying out for people to get involved in them, why not join the one closest to your ideas and go and see the reality of British politics close up?



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 10:40 AM
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You can read quite clearly what my whole comment was. I disagree with your take on it.
You ignore that the bill exists in the first place. Was your political experience spin doctoring by any chance.

The EU is very powerfull and if you cant see that more fool you.



Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Your daydreams of an all-powerful controlling state is, frankly, far off of the mark.
Politicians simply do not have the degree of control you imagine and if they did they surely would make a far better 'fist' of their time 'in power' than they actually do.

...In the UK we are lucky enough not have travelled so far down the road of 'immoveable corporate politicians',


What do you mean by all powerfull. Politicans have no control thats the problem. They are increasingly just administrators of global policy. Why dont they manage to come up with any ideas of their own.

"In the UK we are lucky enough not to have travelled so far down the road..."

Thats exactly where we are travelling, down the road. Im trying to stop it, i dont believe its a good thing. What are you doing.

Which country has immoveable corporate politicians? We have two parties which are almost the same, they both just adore PPP! Thats pretty close to what you said

[edit on 17-4-2006 by AdamJ]



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