Prions: the minority view.

I haven't made my mind up about this; I just noticed the discussion on Soficrow's excellent thread on sustainable population, and I noticed the number of people who are rightly concerned about BSE ("Mad Cow Disease" Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy) and Prions.

Let's see if I can give you a run-down without messing the basic ideas up.

1. BSE seems related to a range of other wierd diseases such as "scrapies" in sheep, TSE in native deer and elk populations, and Cruetzfeldt-Jakob Syndrome, which appeared originally among cannibals in Indonesia, and is otherwise similar to Mad Cow in humans.

2. One of the possible vectors for the spread of "Mad Cow" seems to be Prions, which are tiny protien particles much smaller than cells, which are non-living (are thus are similar to viruses). THis means that disinfection is practically impossible, and that prions may transmit between species in a way that cannot be controlled. Prions are not destroyed by alcohol, bleach or by boiling, 3 of the best ways to disinfect food-prep surfaces.


Now, to the point. There is a minority view that BSE/TSE is not being spread by these dreaded prions. This alternate theory is that prions are instead produced by neural cells which are infected by BSE. The actual vector is thought to be a bacteria which causes the cells to malfunction and begin producing prions.

Now, notice I'm not saying I believe this; but if it were true, it would mean that these encaphalopathies could be controlled much cheaper and more effectively when treated like a traditional illness, rather than responding to it as a sort of viral-like "prion plague."

Info On Bastian
Link to Article on Broxmire.

Frank Bastian is the leading proponent of this minority theory. He successfully showed that a specific bacterium he isolated was also present in BSE cow brains, when prions were present. He originally had funding from NIH, I believe for his research. But now NIH has said his theory is untenable, and has pulled his funding.


I became interested in this topic last November, as deer season started in Texas. I was concerned, because I usually look forward to providing my family with wild, antibiotic-free meat each year. I read that TSE (the deer form of mad-cow desease) had been found in several northern states.

What I discovered is that the TX dept of wildlife has begun a massive testing program, and asked to test some of my buddies' trophies for their files. For some reason, no cases of TSE occur in dear in southwestern states, except for mule deer in the mountains of New Mexico, Colorado, and Arizona.

I began wondering why deer, and cow populations seem more succepible in northern states. The US outbreaks of mad cow were all in the northern tier of states. When I started reading up, I discovered that Broxmire's background is in Tuberculosis, again a disease which is more prominent among northern cattle.

Additionally, there seem to be no BSE cases among North American Buffalo. This is extremely interesting since Buffalo are immune to brucelosis, and are suspected of being immune to tuberculosis as well. If true, this could highlight the connect Broxmire sees between TB and BSE.

Here's a link for another researcher, named Ebringer, mentioned in a more technical source:

Prion Page

Anyway, food for thought.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Additionally, there seem to be no BSE cases among North American Buffalo.

Many of the people who went into raising Bison were former cattle ranchers disgusted with the lack of regulation for animal byproducts being fed to the cows, etc., so they made sure to lobby to make that illegal with Bison. Thus, while a Bison rancher may be feeding those things to his herd to increase his profit, it is far less likely than with beef where it should be assumed to be the case. Bison simply aren't getting the same exposure to BSE, although wild bison could be exposed to infected deer and elk droppings.


[edit on 17-2-2006 by Paul of Nisbis]

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

For some reason, no cases of TSE occur in dear in southwestern states, except for mule deer in the mountains of New Mexico, Colorado, and Arizona.

Ground "zero" for the outbreak centers around the "rocky mountian bio-reasearch" facility run by the Univeristy of Colorado. This is a high security BSL-4 facility. Bio-research facilites for many years have discharged a bothersom bio-waste from their utlra-highspeed centrifuges. This "glob" of waste is almost 100% prion. Becuase prion can't be "killed" in the common sense, the waste found its way into the water supply. If you pull up the CDC's map showing the contamination zone. The center of it is within a few miles of the Rocky Mountain research center.

Originally posted by Paul of Nisbis


Many of the people who went into raising Bison were former cattle ranchers disgusted with the lack of regulation for animal byproducts being fed to the cows, etc., so they made sure to lobby to make that illegal with Bison. Thus, while a Bison rancher may be feeding those things to his herd to increase his profit, it is far less likely than with beef where it should be assumed to be the case. Bison simply aren't getting the same exposure to BSE, although wild bison could be exposed to infected deer and elk droppings.


[edit on 17-2-2006 by Paul of Nisbis]

I worked on a ranch that considered raising bison. The biggest problem is corral and transport costs. We talked to several drivers who wouldn't haul them--buffalo could sense the way the suspension moved in the trailer, and would behave as a group to rock side-side until the trail was threatening to fall over! Plus, you need corrals they cannot see through. They will push each other THROUGH bob-wire fence if you crowd them. The fact that we were so far from markets precluded the venture.

Anyway, the points you make are all certainly true. It may be that bison have merely not yet been exposed to enough prions. Certainly, this would seem like something for Broxmire to research, if he thinks prions are caused by an L-TB bacterium; since Bison are suspected of immunity . . .

As far as the research labs dumping prions, if this were the disease vector, one would expect the mule deer to transmit TSE to cervids in the rio grande and permian basin. TX p & w has done a lot of testing in those regions, and has yet to find any evidence. .. .. .



[edit on 17-2-2006 by dr_strangecraft]

Originally posted by thermopolis

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

For some reason, no cases of TSE occur in dear in southwestern states, except for mule deer in the mountains of New Mexico, Colorado, and Arizona.

Ground "zero" for the outbreak centers around the "rocky mountian bio-reasearch" facility run by the Univeristy of Colorado. This is a high security BSL-4 facility. Bio-research facilites for many years have discharged a bothersom bio-waste from their utlra-highspeed centrifuges. This "glob" of waste is almost 100% prion. Becuase prion can't be "killed" in the common sense, the waste found its way into the water supply. If you pull up the CDC's map showing the contamination zone. The center of it is within a few miles of the Rocky Mountain research center.

Well if this is true then the same should show up in UK where they got hit far harder and earlier then we are currently being hit. Also please post some sources to your research please.

1. BSE seems related to a range of other wierd diseases such as "scrapies" in sheep, TSE in native deer and elk populations, and Cruetzfeldt-Jakob Syndrome, which appeared originally among cannibals in Indonesia, and is otherwise similar to Mad Cow in humans.

It's also been linked to Parkinsons(don't know wether I believe that) and Alzheimers(ditto). Have you also looked up the Nanobacteria angle in all of this?

[edit on 17-2-2006 by sardion2000]

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Houston Chronicle article from 2002 (calls TSE "CWD (chronic waisting disease)" in deer)

Texas Parks and Wildlife Fact Sheet

A whole list of pages and papers dealing with Mad Cow, CWD and hunting

A wisconsin hunter webpage about deer and CWD. (wisconsin, a northern state, has had numerous CWD positive deer)

Isn't google wonderful. To live in such times.

Err...thanks! I was sort of directing that request to thermopolis though. Should have been clearer.

Bastian:

Deerfarmer.com (careful! Definitely conflict of interest issues)

UPI story about Bastian

quote from the above linked article

At the time, Bastian allegedly was unable to distinguish infected scrapie brains from normal brains by testing for the Spiroplasma bacteria.

Bastian disputed that assessment, however, and said he correctly identified infections in 80 percent of the samples.

Despite Bastian's contention, the negative view of the study -- which was conducted in Dr. Robert Rohwer's lab at the Veterans Administration hospital in Baltimore -- has circulated among TSE scientists and perhaps has overshadowed the data Bastian has accumulated since then in support of his bacteria hypothesis.

Asked to comment on Bastian's recent research, Rohwer brought up the unpublished study and told UPI, "We saw no evidence of any bacteriological contamination of these brains."

Rohwer added, "I really question the quality of his research, and I think it's unfortunate that Dr. Bastian continues to ignore his own data. He's not convinced, but I certainly am, that there's nothing to his story."

Bastian claimed that Rohwer's lab technician found evidence of the bacteria in one of the samples, but Rohwer did not mention this when he later made a presentation to National Institutes of Health officials dismissing the bacteria hypothesis.

Bastian said shortly after the test Rohwer was awarded a $2 million NIH grant while Bastian did not receive any funding.

"I think (Rohwer is) totally dishonest," Bastian said, charging that Rohwer attempted to dismiss his hypothesis to get a grant from the NIH.

"If Rohwer has anything to say about that study, he should publish the data rather than making unsupported statements," he said.

emphasis added by dr_strangecraft

Info on Broxmire and a link to Tuberculosis:

Article from May of 2005

2004 article by Broxmire: "Is mad cow disease caused by a bacteria?" (pdf)

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P.S. I just think it's really cool that I looked all this stuff up back in October, and forgot to bookmark any of it at the time. Yet 4 months later, I can still find the same articles. So somebody tell me why you are not allowed to cite interweb source for research papers, unless the source is ultimately a paper periodical???
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[edit on 17-2-2006 by dr_strangecraft]

www.utah.edu...

This will help point the way for you, also check with Soficrow