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It's easy to look at the Method, and ignore the Motive

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posted on Feb, 16 2006 @ 11:16 PM
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I've been thinking about the terrorist problem worldwide recently, and I think the greatest problem is the misunderstanding between both sides -- whichever sides it may be.

From the Israel and Palestine conflict, to the Iraqi Insurgence and Indonesian Terrorism. I think one of the greatest problem is our constantly outraged responses at the deplorable tactics used, while we completely ignore the reasons for them.

We label them as 'terrorists' and stereotype their races, religions and beliefs. We mock them while we preach Freedom and Liberties, and Freedom of Expression and the Press, and then wonder why their numbers and support grows?

If you can, try and put yourself in their shoes.. they must have a reason for doing what they do, that is greater than just the horrible monsters we potray them as.

I am in no way condoning Terrorism, or Terrorist actions, or any actions that endanger, or take anothers life, or even your own.. or any action that damages property.. I just think we horrify it too easily, and ignore the reasons for the actions in the first place, too often.

The Israel / Palestine conflict has been growing for a while now, and Israel with its fully funded army launches devestating attacks on Palestine as 'counter-terrorist' activities or basically revenge attacks for suicide bombings.

I certainly don't think Suicide Bombings are a good method of getting your message across, but how are Air Strikes?

- Why do Palestinian Suicide Bombers launch attacks on Israeli citizens and property?

One nation is much better equiped to deal with military activities, and the other is left to use whatever they can find, or get their hands on. Yet one side is constantly seen as playing a war fairly, and by the book, while the other is seen as the exact opposite. How is using weapons on people that have no where near the same level of sophistication or capability in which to counter-attack, fair?

If you push people, they push back..

I just ask that we try to understand each side a little better (as I, each day try to do), so that in the future maybe everyone can live alongside each other, without so much fear and misunderstanding. (An idealist I know..)




posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 12:46 AM
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Because they are oppressed and desperate, simple as that. I wonder how you americans would feel if Great Britain (muslim nation, lets say) was meddling in your internal affairs and those of your neighbours/allies. It would make you pretty damn mad and desperate if america werent a strong country and you were powerless to stop the British. Then imagine the British and their allies decided to establish a Muslim stronghold in Wasington DC, while the americans living there are expelled and treated like dogs. It would make you furious. That is when your religious extremists would capitalise on the anger and frustration of the people, and wage a Christian "holy war" against the infidel Muslims... Volunteers would step forth by the thousands just to do something, anything.

[edit on 17-2-2006 by Unplugged]



posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 01:53 AM
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ekul08,

I've got a thread in ATS Skunkworks that addresses similiar questions. In it I have asked the question why these acts of violence and terrorism happen in some countries and not in others. And the main question is why do people from these certain troubled regions resort to these methods.

Unfortunately the thread came out around the same time people were hung up on the recent muslim riots, so it didn't get as much attention as the more popular "us against them" kind of threads.

It's still there in skunkworks, I admit I'm a bit lazy to follow up on my research (because of lack of encouragement) but if you have anything to add to it, you can find the thread here.

I'd love to hear your input. That includes you too, Unplugged.



posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 02:06 AM
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ekul08:
I couldn't agree more! I am just amazed that so few people on ATS, and indeed throughout the world as a whole have not raised this issue. We need to spend more time understanding why the frequency of these acts is increasing and less time counter-attacking. Let's eliminate the cause. The first step is to admit the possibility that we may be doing something wrong too.



posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 09:47 PM
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Not only is the Motive ignore, but also this thread



posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 10:04 PM
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You guys better watch out, you're in danger of entering the John Edwards 'hug a terrorist' zone. Cheney will get you for it.


The reason no one talks about why terrorists use the means they have for doing what they do, is it would undermine the impetus and directive of the 'war on terror' itself, and we can't have that now, can we?

Under the current world conditions, the American Colonials would have been called terrorists for the tactics they used against the British during the War for Independence. I mean, militia sniping from behind trees at the Redcoats marching abreast in all their splendor, how dare they!

If you think America won that war, then you must also think there was actually tea in the crates that got dumped into Boston Harbor on December 16, 1773.

I find it a great irony that the U.S. is now an oligarchy run by a guy named George who wants to be king.



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 03:34 AM
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I totally agree with your POV ekul08 and I believe we only have ourselves to blame.
It's easier to hate than to understand.



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 06:14 AM
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First of all thank you everyone for you input. It is very much appreciated.

I've had a busy couple of days but i've been meaning to get back to this thread, and have a closer look over Beachcoma's thread and put my own input into that. Anyway..

mytym mentioned something along the lines of, 'lets treat the cause'. And I could not agree with this more. It's almost like having a toothache, and taking pain releivers to make the pain go away, without doing anything to treat the infection in the root causing the toothache.

I think as long as we continue such a hardline stance, we will only anger more and more good, law abiding people into desperate situations that leave them feeling vulnerable, and on the attack. Lets find out what the cause of the anger is, and do what we can to try and lower that anger. I think America's Foreign Policy and the Hypocrisy of american actions vs statements is at least some of the cause of the problem. Certainly not all blame should be put here.


Originally posted by Icarus Rising
You guys better watch out, you're in danger of entering the John Edwards 'hug a terrorist' zone. Cheney will get you for it.


The reason no one talks about why terrorists use the means they have for doing what they do, is it would undermine the impetus and directive of the 'war on terror' itself, and we can't have that now, can we?


I certainly dont mean to undermine anything, but I think debate is crucial for any good society. A Society without debate is hardly a society, but more like a sheep farm.

Now IMO the War on Terrorism is not succeding. If we seriously look at this, we will realise that America's tactics and technology in Iraq and Afghanistan seriously outweighed that of 'insurgence'. I'm not talking about all instances here but I think meeting what is in the scheme of things sometimes relatively small attacks with such overwhelming force, only leads to more anger, and despair.. and thus support. Especially when innocent lives are involved..


Under the current world conditions, the American Colonials would have been called terrorists for the tactics they used against the British during the War for Independence. I mean, militia sniping from behind trees at the Redcoats marching abreast in all their splendor, how dare they!

If you think America won that war, then you must also think there was actually tea in the crates that got dumped into Boston Harbor on December 16, 1773.


You know, for a while i've had this sneaking suspicion that in some way, America never won the War of Independence. That it was kind of made to look like Independence... Kind of diveging a bit off the topic now, but I did som research re: Boston Tea Party Lie and while i was searching I came across an interesting discussion on another forum that calls the Violence over Cartoons Islams Boston Tea Party.

Then of course you have the prison scandals, and the whole guantanamo bay thing, which im sure dosen't help the situation at all, oh and the recent investigation into CIA prison flights to 'black prisons' or whatever they were being called.



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 09:29 AM
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The 'war on terror' is undermining itself, and the US/Coalition policy of declaring groups that have divergent views from theirs, and insufficient military capability to meet them headon, thus being forced to resort to 'terror tactics', as terrorist groups so they won't have to negotiate with them, or make any real progress on the issues, only serves to exacerbate and perpetuate the problem.

The 'war on terror' is a failed policy being propped up by military power and the self-righteousness, short-sightedness, and greed of the corporate conglomerates, the puppeteers that pull the strings of the puppets that are our elected leaders. It is an example of unrestrained, unscrupulous capitalism at its deranged, destructive worst.

It is an unsupportable situation, and it is destined to fail and collapse, sooner rather than later, imo. Your insight into this matter, and willingness to address it with this thread, is commendable.





[edit on 18-2-2006 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 10:07 AM
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Icarus Rising,

Not to nit-pick, but they've changed the name from 'War on Terror' to 'The Long War'

The 'war on terror' is undermining itself, and the US/Coalition policy of declaring groups that have divergent views from theirs [...] as terrorist groups so they won't have to negotiate with them, or make any real progress on the issues, only serves to exacerbate and perpetuate the problem.

That's an interesting perspective. I've never thought of that. I was told initially it was so that terrorists can't sway the US Gov with their terror tactics, I didn't see how it might have changed in regards to the dynamics of the world today. Or maybe I've watched too many Hollywood movies to realise it


Can I quote you (elsewhere) on that?



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 12:18 PM
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It is just all too easy for the PTB, imo, to disenfranchise a segment, or all, of any given population through military and monetary might, and when that segment attempts to assert its rights as fellow human beings, becoming increasingly frustrated and desperate, often resorting to the only quasi-military means left to them, they are labelled terrorists.

Then Scott McClellan gets up there before the WHPC with his tough guy, Texas gunslinger talk, and says, "We don't negotiate with terrorists, we take 'em out." How convenient!

They are surreptitiously creating the circumstances, the environment, under which to continue to prosecute their 'Long War'. In effect, they are saying, "Either kiss our butts, or we will blow yours off!"

When the US/Coalition exercises the military options available to it, they call it Shock & Awe. When the disenfranchised exercise the quasi-military options available to them, they call it a 'Terror Attack'.

See what I mean?

I'm not sure what the T&Cs say about quoting from other members on this site, so check in to that, and don't get me, or yourself into any trouble, ok?



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 12:30 PM
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No worries, I'll attribute it to you, and I only plan to use it in my next long post in the thread linked in my sig. It'll still be on ATS. I think it'll fit nicely somewhere in the 'Foreign Policy' section.



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 02:28 PM
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I need extra duct tape for my head on this one.

"We need to understand why they are suicide bombers"
alright...

"We need to understand why that mechanic raped and murdered Jessica Lundsford."

Same reasoning right?

The Israelis/Jews have been persecuted since they existed. Remember the countries they were kicked out of? Remeber the inquisition? Remember Hitlers rat/jew comparisons?

The suicide bombings started when Sharon went to the temple mount. Great idea...A man I don't like goes to my church so I blow up a bus of civilians.

Lets stop having sympathy for the devil. They blow up school kids because they are trying to hurt the U.S. I don't know how that hurts the U.S. but they think it does.

All of you Hanoi Hannah's...well...that is your right to have that opinion. But if you lived in Hammas controlled areas or Iraq or Iran or Syria you could expect a late night knock on the door for saying " You know...we need to examine the U.S. point of view."



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 03:09 PM
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"We need to understand why they are suicide bombers"
"We need to understand why that mechanic raped and murdered Jessica Lundsford."
Same reasoning right?


No. Not the same reasoning at all. An individual high on coke and horse who sexually abuses and murders a young girl bears little resemblance to a jihadist blowing up a bus. Only the outcome, death of the innocent, is the same. Both perpetrators may be mentally unsound, but the motivations of the one, sexual predation, and the other, religious and political persecution, are completely different. Understanding why these things happen is the first step in making them stop.



The suicide bombings started when Sharon went to the temple mount. Great idea...A man I don't like goes to my church so I blow up a bus of civilians.


Take the incident that sparked the intifada and leave out the surrounding context, the progressive disenfranchisement of a people in a land they have inhabited for more than 1000 years. Same faulty logic as your statement above.



Lets stop having sympathy for the devil. They blow up school kids because they are trying to hurt the U.S. I don't know how that hurts the U.S. but they think it does.


Where did you get this idea? Trying to hurt the US has nothing to do with it. They only hate the US because the US supports Israel monetarily and militarily to a much greater extent than it supports the Palestinians, another failed policy that has only served to increase tensions between the two peoples.

The devil is in the details. The devil is in who has the power and is applying it inequitably to further an exclusionary agenda. It is always the haves vs. the have nots and the roles reverse as power changes hands down through the ages.



The Israelis/Jews have been persecuted since they existed.


Wrong again. Early on, after leaving Egypt and wandering around the desert for 40 years, it was the Israelites who did most of the persecuting of the original inhabitants of the Holy Land, under Moses and Joshua.

Are you saying that Islam/Muslims have never and aren't now being persecuted for their beliefs and practices? If so, you are wrong again.

You almost struck out twice in one at bat, and spring training hasn't even started yet.



[edit on 18-2-2006 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 03:47 PM
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First of all the feelings of the Arab world against the US is one that we have been feed almost every day by our government as been hostile.

How many Americans believe that the Arab world hates us? To my surprised is many.

But the question is do the Arab world hate American.

Maybe if the nations of the Arab world had democratic governments elected by the people we would know how really are the sentiments of the Arab people toward the US.

But the truth is that is not free elections in the Arab world, Arab leaders do not allowed the true feelings of the Arab people to be known.

So all the messages we get are from the Arab leaders that are obvious very negative against US and US involvement with Israel and we perceive it as the sentiments of the whole Arab people.

Many Arabs that are allowed to express themselves will say that even when they actually like the US they do not like the policies of the US present administration in the Middle East.

The displeasure against US did not start with Bush in the white house and his war in terror but it has been around longer than that.

Since 1958 with Eisenhower the first seeds of the hatred by the Arab world were first talk about and started to make it into the minds of the American people.

Before that the Arabs had not reason to develop the hatred against us that we see today actually the admired the US for his incredible way of thinking about taking charge of becoming prosperous and to have freedoms.

But when US sided with the Jew’s and stomp over the Palestine to have their own independence the views of America change dramatically.

After that the chain of events from replacing Iran’s Prime Minister with the shah, because the importance of oil and power over the Soviet Union, then the coup to bring Gamal to power in Egypt to later he siding with the soviets, and many other US involvement in the middle east started to change the Arab world opinion toward the US.

So one of the reasons given from Arabs as why they are so upset about the US is often in the way they see the US supporting corrupt and oppressive Arab regimes in the past.

Yes the most dangerous results of all the hatred is that many groups has risen to fight and bring death to what they perceive the worst evil to the Arab world, the foreign policies of the US toward the middle east.

The Arab world has a problem understanding that the polices of the American Government, and that the American government is elected but the policie's makers no necesarily are the sentiments expressed by the American population.

They can not understand this because the Arab nations do not have the choices to choose their governments.

So they see the American Government as the American people as one and the same.



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