UN Report: US Is Abusing Captives

I should probably add that I have nothing against the american people, and have many american friends, but you guys have to realise that your government is evil and is doing the (masonic) work of banks and corporations instead of what is best for the people.

Originally posted by DrBones666
Well, I'm from a "Western Country" and belong to a Western family, but thankfully not a yank. Anyway, I don't see how you rednecks can possibly claim that there is no abuse going on there, the evidence is laughingly RIGHT IN YOUR FACE!!

Photographic evidence is hard to argue with in my opinion.

Just because your despotic government says what they are doing is the right thing doesn't mean that it is you know. To be honest I'm absolutely ashamed that my country (Australia) is allied with and actively supports your course for global domination.

It's a sick sad world in many respects, but by far we mostly have the good ol U.S of A* holes to thank for that.

AMERICA =

Da Da and thaaats all folks! Well here you go again and this is exactly why Souljah started this thread and exactly why he started all his other threads. Now let me take a wild guess and say that his very next thread will have something to do about American abuse, political corruption, world domination or just that Americans are stupid in general and our mothers wear combat boots! Cut, paste and bait! And you my friend took it hook, line and stinker!

Let's not confuse the actions of a few UK troops who are currently being investigated and will probably be charged with a policy decision to use torture, unlawful detention etc by the US administration.

Also let's not forget the people being tortured are innocent - they must be or they would have been charged by now.

Hope it's OK for me to have an opinion coming as I do from a non-US country

Reuters

The United States denies that most of the rights, laid down in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Washington is a signatory, apply to Guantanamo Bay.

Washington also denies that the force-feeding of inmates on hunger strike, which was undertaken to save their lives, amounted to cruel treatment.

So here is the Catch: US Denies that the Rights which are written in the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights apply to Gitmos! Meaning, that in Gitmo they can do whatever they want to. Is that the reason why there are NO Detentions Camps in actual Territory of United States - but in Cuba, Iraq, Afganistan, Eastern Europe and who-knows-where-else?

Tricky.

Well, here is yet ANOTHER daily headline regarding this topic:

USA Today: U.N. report urges Gitmo shutdow

[edit on 16/2/06 by Souljah]

Originally posted by curme
You know Buffett is a Kerry supporter, right? He played fundraisers for him when he ran for President.

Curme it doesn't matter to me what Longitude and Latitude someone comes from, at the end of the day we all can belly up to the bar, have a Boat Drink, share a laugh and sing a few Buffet songs. When the Volcano Blows and the shark Fins are about we are all Sons of a Son of a Sailor. Come Monday I'll be back in Margaritaville anyway. When a Pirate Looks at Forty he realizes that "I rather die while I'm living that live while I'm dead!"

WHOFLUNGGUM,

I stopped replying directly to Souljah's posts a long time ago, because I got sick and tired of being played like a fish. It's mostly background static noise to me at this point. The same recyled rhetoric, the same recycled links, the same tired story.

I will, however, admit that he does invest an impressive amount of time and effort into developing his posts, even though I can no longer stomach their contents or pretent to accept them as unbiased.

Anyways, you would have to look long and hard to find more than a few normal Americans who give a rats patoot about the slimebags in Gitmo right now. They are better off then most of the prisoners in Federal Pens back in the States, and it is generally accepted that we wouldn't have gone through all the time, money, and effort to build a prison and keep them there if there wasn't a good reason. As recent history has shown, we cannot rely on our international neighbors to properly contain and/or deal with these thuggish killers, so we must do it ourselves. And since some of the ones we have previously released have already picked their rifles back up and resumed shooting at our boys, I am perfectly happy to let them rot in Cuba until they are not longer a threat.

I read the UN report. The part I liked best was Annex II, the letter from the US responding to the draft report. IMHO that sez it all. Some of the pertinent quotes from that letter are:

"The Report’s legal analysis rests on the flawed position that the ICCPR (International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights) applies to Guantanamo detainees because the United States “is not currently engaged in an international armed conflict between two Parties to the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions.” This, of course, leads to a manifestly absurd result; that is, during an ongoing armed conflict, unlawful combatants receive more procedural rights than would lawful combatants under the Geneva Conventions.

Geez, I guess since Al Queda isn't a party to this convention, we have to treat them like civilians, eh?

and....

"The United States is a country of laws with an open system of constitutional government by checks and balances, and an independent judiciary and press. These issues are fully and publicly debated and litigated in the United States. To preserve the objectivity and authority of their own Report, the Special Rapporteurs should review and present objective and comprehensive material on all sides of an issue before stating their own conclusions. Instead, the Special Rapporteurs appear to have reached their own conclusions and then presented an advocate’s brief in support of them. In the process they have relied on international human rights instruments, declarations, tandards, or general comments of treaty bodies without serious analysis of whether the instruments by their terms apply extraterritorially; whether the United States is a State Party -- or has filed reservations or understandings -- to the instrument; whether the instrument, declaration, standard or general comment is legally binding or not; or whether the provisions cited have the meaning ascribed to them in the Unedited Report. This is not the basis on which international human rights mechanisms should act".

Damn right it isn't.

Originally posted by Pyros
WHOFLUNGGUM,



Anyways, you would have to look long and hard to find more than a few normal Americans who give a rats patoot about the slimebags in Gitmo right now. They are better off then most of the prisoners in Federal Pens back in the States, and it is generally accepted that we wouldn't have gone through all the time, money, and effort to build a prison and keep them there if there wasn't a good reason. As recent history has shown, we cannot rely on our international neighbors to properly contain and/or deal with these thuggish killers, so we must do it ourselves. And since some of the ones we have previously released have already picked their rifles back up and resumed shooting at our boys, I am perfectly happy to let them rot in Cuba until they are not longer a threat.

No it isn't! It may be accepted by you but not by many other people

These are innocent people. If they're guilty of anything then presumably you'd have evidence after 4 years' detention.

You are deluding yourself if you think the World agrees the US can be the absolute arbiter of what's decent & proper.

This is the best recruiting poster AQ etc have ever had.

Originally posted by Souljah

Reuters

The United States denies that most of the rights, laid down in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Washington is a signatory, apply to Guantanamo Bay.

Washington also denies that the force-feeding of inmates on hunger strike, which was undertaken to save their lives, amounted to cruel treatment.

So here is the Catch: US Denies that the Rights which are written in the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights apply to Gitmos! Meaning, that in Gitmo they can do whatever they want to. Is that the reason why there are NO Detentions Camps in actual Territory of United States - but in Cuba, Iraq, Afganistan, Eastern Europe and who-knows-where-else?

Tricky.

Well, here is yet ANOTHER daily headline regarding this topic:

USA Today: U.N. report urges Gitmo shutdow

[edit on 16/2/06 by Souljah]

Pot calling kettle, repeat pot calling kettle, come in pot, this is kettle....you are black.

While we're busy bickering over the legitimacy of the draft U.N. report, the world is watching - whether one feels they are corrupt and ineffective of not (I feel they're just as corrupt as any other government or world body on the planet) - what much of the global community sees as a legitimate world governing body openly slamming the United States for human rights abuses, Geneva convention violations, and what could be construed by some as tantamount to war crimes.

I'd be far more concerned about that than whether or not the report is accurate. Many things that are inaccurate can have far reaching, world-shattering implications. No one should have to tell anyone who frequents this community, of all places, that something need not be true to have an impact, after all. (I'm not saying whether I think it's true or not, as I'd get flamed no matter which way I leaned).

We, while far from "alone" as so many seem to believe, went to war without U.N. approval (yes, yes, I know it isn't needed) and against the wishes of many of our closest and most longstanding allies. Now we're being accused of torture and breaking international law. Yes, I know it isn't the first time. This still shouldn't be discounted out of hand as uninportant though, in my opinion. Forget for a moment how you feel about the accuracy or propriety of the report, and just tell me if I'm the only one who thinks we ought to be concerned by the broader issue(s) it could represent for foreign relations.

I can't understand some of the logic in this thread. Some people seem not to want the closure of a concentration camp in a host country, because the UN is corrupt. Every government in the world is corrupt, deal with it. It is not an excuse to act just as savagely as the enemy whose tactics you are supposed to abhor.

Originally posted by Strangerous
You are deluding yourself if you think the World agrees the US can be the absolute arbiter of what's decent & proper.

This is the best recruiting poster AQ etc have ever had.

You guys do know he's got a point here, right? I don't know whether these abuses are sanctioned by your government or not, but in my opinion it doesn't matter. The fact that it has happened, and apparently still continues will only serve as a reason for people to be against your country.

You've got to stop fighting terror with terror. Torture and abuse will not reform a violent individual. If anything it will only strengthen their resolve to lash out at you. And if the person being tortured is innocent, if they are wrongfully thrown into the prison, when they get out it's pretty reasonable to assume that they will be very very unhappy with the US.

Maybe even hate the US. Maybe even consider what they never would've before. Maybe even join some terror organization to get back at the US.

If they are guilty (which you don't know for sure, because there wasn't a trial to begin with) then they will definitely try to get back at you. Action-reaction. Bad action-bad reaction. Cause and effect. You get the picture...

But in case you don't there's a good movie out called The War Within. Go check it out, it's pretty good. And I wouldn't consider it anti-US propaganda, it's pretty well written and you get to see a moderate muslim's perspective as well as that of the protagonist, a moderate turned extremist.

Lots of dialogue though, so if you're into 'shoot-em up', all action, little brain activity type of shows, you may find that it's not your cup of tea.

It's rather odd that many of the people on this thread find it inconceivable that their government would lie to them. This is, after all, a conspiracy forum. And, let's face it, the rationale for invading Iraq (WMDs) turned out to be smoke and mirrors, right? And Afghanistan? What was that about again? Oh, right, the Taliban wouldn't give Osama over for punishment. So the whole country got trashed and given back to the warlords and drug-runners for one man. Who is still out there, at last count.

I've noticed rather a lot of lies coming from the Administration. For example, before the invasion of Afghanistan, the US Government put out a report that the Taliban were dealing in drugs. Funnily enough, in the same week, the UN put out a report saying how opium production had been eradicated by the Taliban. I didn't know whom to believe, but it made more sense to me that a bunch of religious fundamentalists would stamp out the drug trade... and now that they're gone, Afghanistan is now back to a pre-eminent position in opium production. And there's now cheap heroin coming to my country.

There is, however, one thing that unites Iraq (invaded 2003), Venezuela (failed coup attempt 2002; foiled coup attempt 2005) and Iran (watch this space, but you can see it coming already), and that is that they ALL wanted to trade their oil in Euros.

The US$ is what is termed a 'fiat' currency. It's only worth what the US government says it is, and devalues constantly in order that goods and services are paid for at an advantageous rate. However, there has to be a pressing reason for people to buy such an unreliable currency, and that is that it's the monopoly currency for trading in oil. Saddam made a bundle simply by switching to the Euro, and from that time his fate was sealed. Chavez is also trading partially in Euros, and the Iranians want to open a Euro-based oil bourse in March. I wonder how long that will be allowed to operate?

By the way, that whole 'uranium enrichment' stuff is a bunch of hooey. The Iranians operate a PWR which cannot be used to produce weapons-grade uranium. Face it people, all that stuff about Saddam being linked to al-Qaeda (very unlikely as he was a secularist) and having WMD (they were dismantled by the late nineties) was cherry-picked, massaged propaganda as ludicrous as the Colin Powell UN presentation about Osama's Bond-villain mountain hideout. Which turned out to be just a cave in some rocks.

But no doubt there will be enough gullible people in the US to fall for it. Again.

Originally posted by Souljah
Are the Prisoners being Tortured or not?

No they are not.

why does the US goverment NOT reveal Detention Fascilites,

yeah, right ... tell the enemy all about where the prisoners are
and what exactly the daily schedule is ... smart way to win a war. NOT!

there are no more RULES in War anymore - even if they
were Written in the Geneva Conventions,

The Muslim terrorist insurgents agree with you. Murdering,
beheading, shooting captured soldiers in the head, seeking
out and bombing innocent civilians .... yep, what you said
is exactly how the Muslim terrorist insurgents think and act.

Originally posted by Jakomo
the United States of America is a great bloated beast, only
interested in the rest of the world for what it can get from it.

Yeah right. That's why Americans gave over 4 BILLION dollars
in private donations for Tsunami relief - from both private and
corporate donations. That's why our government is giving
billions upon billions in our tax money, money that could be
spent here on Americans, to AFRICA for AIDS research.
The 'generosity of Americans' list goes on and on and on ...

They don't produce any goods or services themselves

Yeah right. That's why Japan imports more rice from Louisiana
than it grows itself. That's why half the planet flys on BOEING
airplanes. Have a COKE and a smile! The list goes on and on and on ....


Take a sociology course or two. America is moving up from an
Industrial Society phase into a Post Industrial Society phase.
Most of the economics in post industrial society is based upon
communications... such as what you are using right now.

[edit on 2/16/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Implosion
Some people seem not to want the closure of a
concentration camp in a host country,

Cuba isn't 'hosting' GITMO. America has a lease on
the land. It's ours. AND GITMO isn't a concentration
camp. It's a detainment facility for terrorists. They
wouldn't be there if they hadn't been pointing their
guns at Americans and/or innocent Iraqi civilians.

Some have been processed through and let go, only to
end up being caught on the battlefield once again trying
to kill Americans, coalition members, and innocent civilians.

Strangerous said

These are innocent people

No they aren't. They most definately are not.

[edit on 2/16/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Cuba isn't 'hosting' GITMO. America has a lease on
the land. It's ours. AND GITMO isn't a concentration
camp. It's a detainment facility for terrorists. They
wouldn't be there if they hadn't been pointing their
guns at Americans and/or innocent Iraqi civilians.

Several - if not the Majority - of the Gitmo Detainees are probably Innocent, just like the 280 of them, that were released already. Basicly, why don't the US Military CHARGE these people and put them to Trial for the Crimes that they Supposed to have Commited? The Majority of these people are being held without any Trial for their Crimes - just Arrested, Abused and Tortured, as they say. And alot of them were Illegally Kidnapped from the European countries, where they lived and stayed - for which actions the European Legal Authorities were not were Pleased.

Some have been processed through and let go, only to
end up being caught on the battlefield once again trying
to kill Americans, coalition members, and innocent civilians.

Yes?

You have Proof for your Claims?

Anyway, how come that people being held in Gitmos do not include also the Notorious Al-Qaeda Mastermind, who is supposed to Orchestrate the attack on USS Cole alongside with 23 of his closest "dangerous individuals"?

How Convenient!

Why didn't this Extremly Dangerous Enemy Combatant been held in US Gitmos?

Whoflunggum:

I was thinking about answering your post, but I just could not get past this first paragragh. Then I saw were you are from............ and now I can't stop laughing.

Spoken like a true Roman. Rather than deny the US is a consumer society and a failing empire, you just claim it's so unbelievable to be hilarious!

I could not have proved my point any better than you just did. Thanks a lot!

Now let me take a wild guess and say that his very next thread will have something to do about American abuse, political corruption, world domination or just that Americans are stupid in general and our mothers wear combat boots!

Individual Americans are not stupid. But the American public as a whole, used to being spoonfed lies for many many years, has the attention span of a gnat. You are being dumbed down more every year.

I remember an America where people wouldn't just lie down and take it. An America that would FREAK if they found their President had knowingly or unknowingly lied to them. I guess that America is gone.\

And that's why most of the world hates you. And that's why they are right to hate you. People are dying every day due to the American public's inaction, and it definitely was not always the case.

Look at your dollar, and watch it plummet more. Nobody can beat your military, but wow, who CAN'T beat your economy. Your Administration is ruining it all by itself.

So while your attention is on these evil baby-eating turrorists, your children's futures are being sold to corporate America and their children as well.

Dronetek:

Again, I have to ask where you guys are when one of your heroes blows themselves up in a crowded market.

I've never said anything to imply that I think a suicide bomber is in any way doing the right thing. I can say the US is a terrorist nation and I can also realize that suicide bombers are criminal murderers.

I can criticize the crimes of the Bush Administration and still think that terrorism is the wrong thing. In fact I criticize the Administration for being terrorists themselves quite often. So I don't see your point.

FlyersFan:

That's why Americans gave over 4 BILLION dollars
in private donations for Tsunami relief - from both private and
corporate donations.

Private donations from Americans were 400$ Million. About a buck from every American. Woo frickin hoo. While Canadians contributed $150 million and we have 10 times less people than you do.

Do you have a link that backs up your 4 Billion dollar assertion? I was under the distinct impression that it was $900 million.

Yeah right. That's why Japan imports more rice from Louisiana
than it grows itself. That's why half the planet flys on BOEING
airplanes. Have a COKE and a smile! The list goes on and on and on ....

Have you ever heard of something called the "Trade Deficit"? Have picked up a financial report on your economy in the last 15 years?

Are you honestly saying that the US produces more than it consumes? Wow. Every single economist on the face of the planet will disagree with you, which is why I find it hard to believe you actually buy what you're saying.

Read this link:

www.epinet.org...

You have a $726 billion dollar deficit with CHINA ALONE!!!!!!

Total U.S. imports of goods and services reached $2 trillion in 2005 for the first time, 57% more than the $1.3 trillion in exports.

So you actually buy 0.7 trillion dollars more than you sell. Care to explain how this is healthy in any way for the US?

Take a sociology course or two. America is moving up from an
Industrial Society phase into a Post Industrial Society phase.
Most of the economics in post industrial society is based upon
communications... such as what you are using right now.

Lol! Take a BASIC economics course.

Check out where all your communications equipment is designed, researched and produced. It ain't Schenectady.

China is forecasted to have a 103$ billion dollar communications industry by 2007. That's like tomorrow.

Again, any links that can prove anything you've claimed would be appreciated. If you need more links from me just ask.

Here's a good one to back my statements up:

www.ustreas.gov...

The US Treasury Department website. Go nuts.

jako

Originally posted by Jakomo
Have you ever heard of something called the "Trade Deficit"?
Are you honestly saying that the US produces more than it consumes?

Poor Jakomo. I didn't say that the US produces more than it
consumes. I was responding to YOUR statement. THIS statement -

They don't produce any goods or services themselves

Trade deficit and what the US consumes and/or produces is
a different discussion. While blathering anti-americanisms
you made the blatently erroneous statement that America
doesn't produce any goods or services ourselves.
Dupont, Boeing, the rice industry, the wheat farmers,
Hollywood, and the communications industries (to name
just a very few) would probably loooooove to laugh you
out of the room. America is in a POST industrial stage.
Most of our goods and/or services are in the communications
fields. Again - crack open a sociology book. Also - before
you open mouth and insert foot - you'd best read exactly
what I post and WHY I post it - in this case it was because
you said we don't produce anything - which had nothing
to do with deficits etc.

Originally posted by Souljah
And alot of them were Illegally Kidnapped from the European countries, where they lived and stayed - for which actions the European Legal Authorities were not were Pleased.

You mean like the slovanian police arresting people, beating, threatening then ignoring thier complaints?

Or mabye the slovanian government denying people the right to be a citizen, AFTER they had been living in the country legally.

Topic people.