UN Report: US Is Abusing Captives

Originally posted by Aris
Sure. If that were the case, I would agree. Seeing as how the events on the ground are nothing like the propaganda you are parroting, this comparison of yours is laughable.

No?
So all my information or "propaganda" ,you know that phrase gets thrown around quite a lot, is wrong and yours is right?
Okkk so you've been on the ground then and can tell me what REALLY is the tactics used by insurgents?

They are well documented. Even British commanders have highly criticized American tactics, stating that "the Americans think they're cowboys in the Wild West" and also that "the Americans consider Iraqis untermunschen", for eg.

Actually there are several british commanders who state so but there are also several british commanders who do not say this but wait thats not documented as much as the negative side so it wont reach the news....

No and I have no idea what you are yammering on about.

One news source from the "other side" implied that MI5 was training up suicide bombers in iraq, infact it had 1 whole person claim he knew DOZENS of people that where being trained!

That statement, standing on its own, clearly displays the simplistic way you seem to understand things.

Pot calling kettle?
Its true.

What you actually mean is that "sometimes you need to work with scum so you can pillage a sovereign nation's resources".

Your now choosing what I mean? Hmm suddenly discovered telepathy?
No what I meant was that sometimes you need to work with scum to make the world better.
Unless you think that we should have just bombed all the sides in serbian/bosnian conflict into obliteration and left only the "good" behind?

Every country? Really? And by the way, it's called "predatory neoliberal capitalism".

Really really yes every country is doing so!
Also neoliberal capitalism? Oh come on...

Nope. Well documented facts that are in the public domain. You really should step outside your bubble, it would seem.

Well documented facts?
How about proving those "facts" with some links ?

As you mentioned yourself, the Balkans were recently subjected to western imperialism.

WHAT! HA! We went in and stopped genocide!

Other than that, why bother doing much in Europe in the last decade when US military bases are already installed almost everywhere and they're still there?

Yes military bases such as a few in germany and two or 3 in britain? OOOOHHH I'm so frightened!

Well we could start with Bill Clinton himself who admitted to his country helping set up and financing the Greek dictatorship, providing intelligence for it etc etc.

Wasnt this the same man who lied on television and had an affair?
Not exactly a trusting man if he cant keep it in his pants?

A fact he formally apologized for, when he officially visited Greece while still President of the US of A.

So the actions of a president make the entire western world bad?

I was referring to Britain's involvement, during the 20th century in places like the Middle East for eg.

Yeah mabye you didnt notice but I did mention that bit too, but lets keep dragging those bones out?
Shall we go back to the begining of time?

Please do.

Fair enough, Next post I shall link you but I am needing to go watch soon.

0.1 of what?

0.1% Of what is actually happening on the ground.

That hundreds of thousands of them are dead, at the hands of the coalition of the dwindling?

I wont deny the above , that happened.

That the US systematically tortures them? Collective punishment? Destruction of their country?

Exscuse me? No one in iraq as far as I know is torturing anyone , if you didnt notice we're against that but wait no gitmo and that do conduct that dont they?

You seem to have this fixation that the US Air Force only has B-52s.

Actually I would say you are since you brought them into this equation if you want to change your facts after you state them go ahead.

Wrongo, Jacko. The Brits in Iraq, for eg, hardly use overwhelming tactics against the local population.

Ever read british field manuals or even done a section battle drill? No didnt think so.
Number 1 rule, once the fire fight has been won flank or directly assault the enemy with overwhelming force or tactics.

I'm defending nothing. We're debating various points and if you haven't noticed, I'm asking you questions as well. I make points with sources, you just toss out simplistic views without the ability to expand on them, never mind sources.

You are defending your arguement, you stated several facts that are not true and you cant prove.

Wow! The source is two whole months old! I never knew the Iraq War started a couple of months ago!

Well if I am not mistaken we are talking about now and not the past, except for falluhja and past wars (I dont know why you want to go back in time) , and frankly this data shows nothing.

Originally posted by Aris
Let me tell you something:

No let me tell YOU somthing, I have better things to do with my life than to disprove various half truths and blatent lies about the iraq war. I am however doing the best I can considering I only get acess to the internet mabye once a day and even then its dependant on a satalite and the boat not moving too much.

Yep. The US is using a "scalpel" in Iraq bwahahahahahaha

Well to be honunest yes it is, do you actually know what a "scalpel" and a "hammer" are to the US military or the MOD for that matter?

Accurate air power? LOL! That statement alone shows how clued out you are. Would you care to provide sources that support this statement of yours?

Does it? From what I can see you are the one that obviosly is lacking in understanding how accurate weapons actually are.

Circular error probable 9 meters

www.globalsecurity.org...

A rebel that only has a AK-47, fighting against a US soldier who has night vision goggles, body armour, supporting Apache helicopters above him, Predator drones giving him aerial views, overwhelming firepower etc etc, isn't brave?

And every patrol has apache helicopters and predetor drones giving him ariel support and overwhelming fire power doesnt he?
Just asking have you been watching british news about the equipment being used by the british armed forces or more so the LACK of it?

LOL! Not to belittle ATSNN, but that's not exactly what people mean when they say "diversify the sources of your news".

Well I would say its diverse considering it reports from all news agencies, this is probably the only news source I have except from CNN and BBC world but CNN is more american based so I watch it less.

LOL again. "Pot calling kettle". Gimme a break.

Well you are calling me "black"

You, on the other hand, seem to only read CNN and ATSNN. "Pot calling kettle" indeed....

Really so your now watching what I read? Hmmm how very impressive considering you live in greece and not off the coast of spain, 12 miles off the coast to be precise.
I read what I can on ATSNN and sometimes watch CNN if I have time but I mostly watch BBC world.

Bring what up? That the US has used, at times, B-52s? Maybe because they have?

Yes but against cities? Your the one who brought B-52s into the dicussion I am simply saying that they are rarely used in iraq considering there are no open formations of troops.

Like I said before, you seem to have this fixation on B-52s. Either that or you're attempting a straw man argument....

Your the one who brought a strategic bomber into a tactical war sorry but I find that pretty much overkill for anti insurgency warfare.

Nope. I'm in Greece, as my avatar clearly states.

My apologies, forgot summer time +1 GMT.

The coalition does not bomb cities that do not harm them.

Yep, another straw man argument.

Not really, but if you wish to call it that go ahead.

Can I ask you a question? I'm not asking so as to put you down;

Yes sure you arent...

I'm asking because I am really wondering....How old are you?

18 , may I ask your age?

Bump.

There are some members who still believe there is no torture of detainees in Guantanamo or they simply don't believe these sources.

So how about the FBI?

Here are some snippets from the article

FBI details possible Guantanamo Bay abuse
Some military officials and contractors told FBI agents that the interrogation techniques had been approved by the Defense Department, including directly by former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.

Contractors?
What contractors?
Are there torture experts for hire?

Here's more.

Personally very upsetting
The agency asked 493 employees whether they witnessed aggressive treatment that was not consistent with the FBI’s policies. The bureau received 26 positive responses, including some from agents who were troubled by what they saw.

“I did observe treatment that was not only aggressive but personally very upsetting,” one agent wrote, describing seeing a man left in a 100-degree room with no ventilation overnight. “The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently literally been pulling his own hair out throughout the night.”

Lovely.

Here is another article about private torture contractors

Contractors Are Cited in Abuses at Guantanamo
New allegations of detainee abuse at Guantanamo Bay released by the FBI on Tuesday put private contractors at the center of interrogation operations, raising questions once again about where they fit in the military's chain of command.

The FBI's disclosures, which are based on eyewitness reports, refer several times to contractors directing the Army's interrogation efforts at the military detention center in Cuba. In at least one case, FBI agents were told that detainees may have been mistreated on orders from a contractor.

And here is the FBI report in pdf format.

Ps. Looks like Souljah was right. Again.

[edit on 5-1-2007 by yanchek]

I can't believe anyone would attempt to defend the vile things that have happened in that horrible place.

Unless you've had your head in the sand, we've all seen the pictures and we've all heard the reports. Yes, I'm sure some exaggeration has occurred, but the fact is that bad things have happened in that prison.

Yes, the US is responsible for their agents (at home and abroad). It it their responsibility to ensure that things like this do not happen. Sadly, they seem to believe that their only real responsibility is to make sure that these things are not found out.

Torture is a lucrative business.

Here's an interesting article.

Meet the New Interrogators: Lockheed Martin
Dozens of people converged this summer in the high desert town of El Paso, Texas, en route to spending six months in Iraqi prisons. They were going not as prisoners, but as their interrogators, walking a legalistic tightrope stretched across the Geneva Conventions. Just for signing up, they got a $2,000 check from a company that is rapidly becoming one of the key employers in the world of intelligence: Lockheed Martin, the world's biggest military company, based in Bethesda, Maryland.

'I want to join this course to travel in ME, the birthplace of civilization. I want to meet exotic an interesting people and torture them. I want to be the first kid on the block to use a waterboarding technique on a civilian.'

Well there's more

Michaelis, who is the main point of contact for new interrogators, came to Lockheed in February after it acquired his former employer Sytex in a $462 million takeover. Sytex was founded 1988 by Sydney Martin, a management graduate of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who dabbles in collecting old Danish and Irish coins. In its first year, the Pennsylvania-based company earned $1,500. By 2004, according to Congressional Quarterly, Sytex was providing "personnel and technology solutions to government customers including the Pentagon's Northern Command, the Army's Intelligence and Security Command, and the Department of Homeland Security." Its revenues had reached $425 million..

Woah! From $1.500 to $425 million? I'm definatelly in the wrong business.
Saying 'No Pain, No Gain' just got a whole new meaning.

The company's reach and influence go far beyond the military. A New York Times profile of the company in 2004 opened with the sentence: "Lockheed Martin doesn't run the United States. But it does help run a breathtakingly big part of it."

"Over the last decade, Lockheed, the nation's largest military contractor, has built a formidable information-technology empire that now stretches from the Pentagon to the Post Office. It sorts your mail and totals your taxes. It cuts Social Security checks and counts the United States census. It runs space flights and monitors air traffic. To make all that happen, Lockheed writes more computer code than Microsoft" writes Tim Weiner.

This company is a monster.

But Susan Burke, a lawyer for Iraqi prisoners who say they were tortured at Abu Ghraib, challenges the legality of using private contractors for interrogation. "Interrogation has always been considered an inherently governmental function for obvious reasons. It is irresponsible and dangerous to use contractors in such settings given that there is a long history of repeated human rights abuses by contractors." The Philadephia attorney charges that the use of private contractors is illegal. "The United States Congress has passed laws (the Federal Acquisition Regulations) that prevent the executive branch from delegating "inherently governmental functions" to private parties."

The State has a monopoly on usage of represive force. Outsorcing without proper civilian oversight is just ridiculous.

Torture is wrong, but hey, It's good for economy.
Welcome to the Brave New World.

Well done yanchek!

You have voted yanchek for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Funny how all the so-called debunkers and holy defenders of torture have fled this thread.

I wonder why...

Same old BS! Nobody is impressed!

Pfft! I wonder how many people have tried to make their points here about who is torturing whom. If "torturing" people is saving lives, then nobody is complaining!

Spare us this crap that has been going on and on for the better part of this decade!

[edit on 8-1-2007 by IAF101]

Thanx Souljah for WATS. It's funny to see thread-tags like un lies, un false reports, propaganda, anti-us and then you read FBI report and articles about private torture contractors.

Originally posted by IAF101
Same old BS! Nobody is impressed!

Speak for yourself.

Pfft! I wonder how many people have tried to make their points here about who is torturing whom. If "torturing" people is saving lives, then nobody is complaining!

Spare us this crap that has been going on and on for the better part of this decade!

One cannot preach freedom, when freedom is denied.
One cannot preach human rights, when human rights are denied.
One cannot preach justice, when justice is denied.

Many are saying that all detainees are terrorists or some kind of subhumans and that we are in war. But somewhere in war there should be honour.
Where is the honour in that IAF101? Tell me, where?

So pretty please with cherry on top, save your Machiavellian and greater good BS that is going on for ages, for your next think-tank meeting.

Ps.
Even Machiavelli put a number of restrictions on what kind and amount of evil deeds are necessary to justifie the means.

Originally posted by IAF101
Same old BS! Nobody is impressed!

And nobody is impressed with your posts as well.

Same old AIPAC Bull Shyeet.

Pfft! I wonder how many people have tried to make their points here about who is torturing whom. If "torturing" people is saving lives, then nobody is complaining!

So how many lives DID torture od innocent civilians save?

Do you know the numbers?

A million lives?

100,000 lives?

10,000 lives?

1,000 lives?

100 lives?

10 lives?

How many?

And then ask yourself another question:

How many people held in phantom prison net are being held on the bases of false suspecion and are completly innocent? And how many of those captured did have a fair trial? How many?

Spare us this crap that has been going on and on for the better part of this decade!

Spare us this kind of posts and go and play a round of golf please.

Its all pretty damn stupid.

US tortures this guy, UN rapes this kid, France hearts Iraq, some kid blows himself up in a schoolyard to prove what? I dont know. I dont think he even knows.

Same bull different day.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
US tortures this guy, UN rapes this kid, France hearts Iraq, some kid blows himself up in a schoolyard to prove what? I dont know. I dont think he even knows.

Same bull different day.

World Gone Crazy my Friend...

What consitutes torture?