It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

China FC-1 04 will fly

page: 2
1
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 06:40 AM
link   
The picture you posted that showed I have oppugned in China that is only different view of angle




posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 02:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by Daedalus3
yea.. maybe a little more on the weapons load, avionics, radar, RCS etc. would give a better idea of the jet's capabilities.
PAF cancelled the order for the F-16s??!
Thats news to me!..


PAF cancelled the F-16 order because USA refused to sell it to Pak and advised it to spend its $$$ on earthquake victims. The F-16 sale has been postponed and by no means cancelled.

The FC-1 has gone into redesign and the redesigned FC-1 (as seen in the models displayed at the recent chinese air show) flight is expected only in the next 2 years.

The JF-17 Thundaar (a.k.a Paki FC-1) will not have Chinese avionics, but will have low/medium grade western avionics. (from Italy/UK/Sewden ???)

Thank You

[edit on 17-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 08:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by emile
The picture you posted that showed I have oppugned in China that is only different view of angle


I finished the shape of the wings. Look at the different shapes. Its very different and is not the angle of vision





posted on Feb, 17 2006 @ 09:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
The FC-1 has gone into redesign and the redesigned FC-1 (as seen in the models displayed at the recent chinese air show) flight is expected only in the next 2 years.


The pictures are from last year. exactly may 2005. This is not recent if you consider the actaul time frame of a project. Also this would have to be based on a aplane which would have been already planned to make a model of it and wouldn't have just made a model without having the plane finalised

And no. It was originally expected to fly in late 2005 but was delayed into 2006. The revised FC-1 was formulated in 2004 while the model of the plane was released after the design had already started. The expected entrance of the FC-1 into low level production is under 2 years time and they have already started hiring people for the job.

This thread about this resent news and nothing is about what was rumoured before hand. With the 01 and 03 they only flew a hour for flight testing without any testing later because most of the FC-1 testing was done using simulators which did not require it to actually fly. But it was first powered by a RD-33 instead of the RD-93 which it has now so the computer simulations proved more accurate than actual flying.

The new prototype 04 will already have been in testing on simulators because its flight goal was at the end of 2005 and only postponed because of a techical matter. So from these dates when can figure out that the 04 has already been though a lot of testing on simlutors and the 16 pre-production fighters are expected half way though 2006.


The JF-17 Thundaar (a.k.a Paki FC-1) will not have Chinese avionics, but will have low/medium grade western avionics.




Doesn't look western to me
. This is the revised number 04 With a different cockpit confriguration and is the more expensive version of the FC-1 being produced. See from the items below its the all chinese version with technologies supposly coming from the J-8H like the new phased array radar KLJ-7?. Or even wait for a ESA radar Kopyo is vering for this along with some other compaines. so different versions will consist of different systems.

When people said futuristic avonics it didn't mean the picture of the plastic FC-1 cockpit before that cockpit has the barely everything you need with a few gauges missing. The JF-17 was to have 3 MFDs while the FC-1 was to have only have 2 like the picture below. But this has all changed since these where not permanent plans nor any of the avoincs a permanent thing. These were implemented when the FC-1 was only suppose to counter the LCA now it has new threats and the pakistanis want more out of their fighter.



Ok now looking back at the FC-1 program it was only being designed at the first stage to be a cheap light BVR capable platform with only limited capability. this was inclusive of the Grifo with only limited detection range and some very cheap Avonics with limited capabilty and no HMD. Thats prototypes 01-03 with nhumber 01 and 03 being the ones which did the test flights and 02 doing ground testing. It was only basic stuff included and was only being designed as a space filler for ageing J-6s some older J-7s and the mirage III. This was designed as a competitor towards the LCA and was being agreed on in 1992. This has now dragged on into the 21th century and new threats have emerged

But now with the MRCA tender getting more advanced and more upgraded than the oringal proposed Mig-29s and Mirage 2k-5 the pakistanis and possiblity the chinese military want more than jsut a simple BVR but a all together more capable platform. It seems the J-10 has become more expensive than previously expected because of increase complexity it seems like it has been decided to get some FC-1s to swell the ranks and act as a replacment for older J-7C~E and maybe some older J-8s.

Anyway with the FC-1 there is going to be a definate improvment on speed weight and overall efficeny and performance. With DSI you get composities and with composties you get benifits like less weight and a lower RCS figure. Less weight will also decrease your take off weight and your engine performance. And the only thing that can be moldef into that distinctive bump is composties which the chinese have been developing as substutes for titaium on the J-11s she is building and also from the J-10 program and commerical aircraft she is building like airbus and beoing parts which are made of compostie material. So if the FC-1 04 is making more use of compostie materials i wouldn't be surprised because the trend is heading towards that way.

Because the FC-1 timeline has now overlapped with the J-10 deployment it has now come into the J-10 technologies and avoincs gear developed for the J-10 can and will be used for the FC-1. Both of these are from Chengdu industries and that measn both of them have access to the same technologies. Also the FC-1 is now going to have a HMD incorpated and i think the PL-8 is being intergrated for high off-boresight shots

And about the prototype stages it was to be

Prototype-01 For Flight Performance Verification
Prototype-02 Ground and Load Testing (Static Ground Testing)
Prototype-03 For Flight Performance Verification
Prototype-04 Weapons Integration And Avionics Testing

Only during the start of prototype 04 was it going to be fitted with its avonics and the prototype beforehand did not have avoincs fitted on during its test flight but only basic ones to test the airframe and aircraft stabbility while number 02 was only used as static ground testing.

While pakistani has not confirmed any orders of the Grifo S7 it has a moderatly good range of 100km supposely for a F-16 target. well below the MKI radars but respectable for a fighter of its size and the size of the radar. But the KLJ-7 is to have comparable range to the Grifo radar it will be cheaper and have a backed up warranty with china. There was also talk of pakistan getting british avoincs (article posted by you) I cant remember if you said AESA or the article. So im not to sure about this. Anything lower than this range and it wouldn't be acceptble for a BVR platform considering the chinese SD-10 has a range of 70KM. anything less would not be sufficent and there are a number of radars which can furfill its needs

So remember that the FC-1/JF-17 will not be the same plane in different airforces because from the on set it was being marketed as a export fighter and not a permanent fighter with certain capabilities. Thats why there are iinconsisitancies with the pricing. Going from 10~17million a piece








[edit on 17-2-2006 by chinawhite]



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 01:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by emile
The picture you posted that showed I have oppugned in China that is only different view of angle

I finished the shape of the wings. Look at the different shapes. Its very different and is not the angle of vision

Ok if it is true, do you know what is meaning of aerodynamics of it? Is the undercarrier moving forward or wing moving back?



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 07:15 AM
link   
Well the pakis are dilly dallying about the avionics :

2003-04 : They said they wanted Grifo radar with Italian avionics

mid 2005 : They said that they very uhappy about chinese avioincs and radar, and would surely go in for western avioincs

later in 2005 : PAF Air Chief Marshal - Kaleem Saadat goes on record to say that their thundaar will get Chinese avionics.

later in 2005 : Pakis say that they are in negotiations with Sweden for thundaar avionics - in addition to making enquiries about SAAB aew&c products. (some reports suggest that pak were sucessful in these negotiations while others say Indian and US lobbying put cold water to negos)

2006 : Paki defence ministry spokesperson says that Pak is shopping for FC-1 avionics in the UK

So i guess we will never know what the reality is till the redesigned FC-1 enters service.

Most importantly - Pakistani thundaars getting any powerplant itself is an unresolved issue


More .... Dubai Air Show: Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 Tweaked for Higher Performance

Aviation Week & Space Technology 11/28/2005 Robert Wall, Dubai

Pakistan and China are making configuration changes to the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 to boost the fighter's performance in what is likely only the first of a series of iterations the aircraft will undergo in coming years.

In the run-up to limited batch production slated for next year, flight testing of a modified prototype, called TP4, is underway. This aircraft incorporates design changes including a larger inlet to boost top speed to around Mach 1.8 from below Mach 1.6. The center and aft fuselage configuration has also been tweaked.

The aircraft features a partial fly-by-wire system that controls yaw only. Pakistani officials say they opted for this configuration to keep the cost of the aircraft down. A full fly-by-wire system could have made the aircraft unaffordable, they suggest.

Still ahead is testing of the avionics system, since most of the work to date has concentrated on structural matters. Two of five initial prototypes are used for fatigue and static testing, while the PT1 was the basic design of the Chinese FC-1. PT4 is the only aircraft so far to feature some of the design changes.

A production contract would follow around 2009. Initially, Pakistan will provide 58% of the parts, but that is supposed to increase gradually to 100%. One of the big question marks over the project, though, is whether China will place its promised order, which is seen as vital to keeping the program moving forward.

The aircraft is powered by a Russian Klimov RD-93 engine with 11,340 lb. thrust. The weapons package has not yet been settled. Despite speculation that China would push Pakistan to use its PL-12/SD-10 radar-guided weapon, Pakistani officials are keeping their options open, possibly as a bargaining chip to try to lower the cost of the SD-10.




JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - DECEMBER 07, 2005
Sino-Pakistani fighter improved
[..]
The PAC is establishing its own facility to build the aircraft and has been importing specialist machine tools from suppliers in Sweden, and elsewhere, to set up a better production line than the one already established at Chengdu
.


According to a PAC official the original FC-1 design was found to be Mach-limited, forcing a revision of its engine intake design.The conventional intake with splitter plates found on the first three aircraft has now been replaced with convex diverterless supersonic inlets (DSIs), similar to those found on Lockheed Martin's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft. The rounded 'bump' of the DSI compresses and redirects the oncoming boundary layer airflow that can otherwise cause airflow disruptions in the engine. The revised FC-1 now has a maximum speed of M1.8, powered by a Russian-built Klimov RD-93 engine.

Along with these major fixes to the inlet design and the surrounding fuselage area has come a redesign of the wing-fuselage join and the rear fuselage section. The FC-1's fin-tip has also gained a new fairing, understood to be an electronic counter- measure housing. It remains to be seen if such changes to the FC-1's design can be easily accommodated.

According to the PAC, Pakistani test pilots are flying with the Chinese test team, with FCS development as a major focus. However, PAC officials have also indicated that the current FCS configuration is an optimised low-cost solution and not one that is expected to be revised in the near future.

The PAC said that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plans to qualify the JF-17 with all current PAF weapons. The JF-17 has been touted as a platform for China's SD-10 active radar beyond-visual-range missile. The JF-17 may yet find itself armed with a less capable Chinese weapon, such as the semi-active radar homing FD-60 (PL-11), or other weapons sourced away from China entirely.



Chnages to the FC-1 >> Scan from Ordnance Science Technology (sourced from chinese posters) :

[img=http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/74/fc1changes8yt.th.jpg]


@ emile : what is your source for your first post ? It is hard to believe 'cause the part about Pak cancelling the 75+ F-16 (block 52)order is completely false. Same goes for making comparisions with the F-35



posted on Feb, 18 2006 @ 11:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
2003-04 : They said they wanted Grifo radar with Italian avionics


Italian avonics?

They never said they wanted to equip their whole force with the Grifo but was a misconsrued rumour based on the interview with Shahid Lateef and Shahzad Aslam which only stated that the FC-1 might be intergrated with the Grifo as a temporay option which has been spread around by people to be the true option. Because the Grifo S7 was allowed with full TOT it was the best option to test the SD-10 missile on since the itailians gave them the lanuch codes to laucnh the missiles and partly because the chinese radar was not yet finished

And your numbers are wrong. they were in 2001-2002 that the pakistanis were making the deals after their purchase of Grifo-Ms for the F-7MG that they brought. None the less the pakistanis have never confirmed they will use the Grifo as the FC-1 radar but it has been mainly forum talk.


mid 2005 : They said that they very uhappy about chinese avioincs and radar, and would surely go in for western avioincs


Not mid-2005 think 2004 and the original articles goes as follows. Most only one half of this article is supplied

07/06/2004
"

Two years ago we were still not hopeful of a resolution to our avionics
problems and the Chinese could not meet our requirements. We had worked
with GEC Marconi, Thomson CSF and SAGEM as the Chinese could not match out
needs
, and we were finalising our requirements when the sanctions bit in.
So we went on a tour of Chinese factories that were building the J-10 to
look at their avionics, but we were not impressed. However, they promised
to improve their technologies, and with out guidance - and more time - they
have met our expectations and we now have an avionics package available


We will be interfacing the avionics and weapons with a modern 1553 (avionics)
/ 1760 (weapons) power PC based mission computer. We insisted on this
method that would allow us a glass cockpit, and not analogue as the Chinese
and orignally offered.
"


So in 2002 chinese avonics were not up to pakistani expectations even the ones that were being developed for the J-10 pre-2002. But after the following two years(2004) chinese provided suitable avoinics that were up to pakistani expectations.

The first 50 FC-1s will have all chinese avonics confirmed by the pakistani airforce general. And because of this massive increase in technology from a analogue pad which the FC-1 was oringally meant to have to a glass cockpit which is a lot better.

And unhappy about chinese radar?. You must be kidding since in 2004 the KL-7 was non-existant which means it was not finished and not examined. How could be unhappy about a radar you cant see.

The problem with other radars is that you have to have lanuch codes to intergrate the weapons with. The FC-1s main weapon is the PL-12 and PL-8 combo. Plus this can also be intergrated with chinese anti-ship missiles if this radar was built using JL-10A technology which is used on the J-7HA and has a suitble range for the requirement of BVR. 110km track.




later in 2005 : Pakis say that they are in negotiations with Sweden for thundaar avionics


Do you have sources for this?


Paki defence ministry spokesperson says that Pak is shopping for FC-1 avionics in the UK


You mean this fine piece of journalism?

Just casually adding in the JF-17 avonics package. with out refering back to that or being more specific. But im just wondering what fighter britian could supply because if your going to supply a avonics package you need to know the radar in which to intergrate it with. Plus this does not factor in that the systems will not be just imported but made in pakistan

Here is something from Janes APRIL 28, 2004

The avionics suite is of Chinese origin, comprising a smart head-up display, infra-red search-and-track system, night-vision goggle capability and ring-laser gyro inertial navigation system with GPS. An advanced radar is expected to be procured from French, Italian or Russian sources.

According to AVM Lateef, the staff requirement for the avionics package was prepared five years ago, is based on Western standards and is regularly updated. The PAF is satisfied with the avionics systems developed by China and these will be installed in the third prototype.

It is planned to establish a co-production facility for the avionics at the Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory. A similar strategy is planned for the BVR missile, which would be a major technological breakthrough for Pakistan.


And according to AVM Lateef (pakistans FC-1 project director) it was satified with chinese avonics. And in the article there is no mention of the chinese radar since in 2004 it was not known ./

And the last paragraph og the article it says there are already plans on making a joint production plant in pakistan for the avonics. Kind of like the K-8 which is also co-produced



posted on Feb, 19 2006 @ 12:08 AM
link   

Same goes for making comparisions with the F-35


I didn't see a comparison


And theres a good chance the F-16 is being cancelled



posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 08:14 PM
link   


Musharraf inspects JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft production


CHENGDU, CHINA Feb 23 : President Pervez Musharraf Thursday inspected the prototype s of JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft which is being jointly produced by the two countries at Flight Test Station at Chengdu.

The JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, is a major step forward towards cooperation between the armed forces of the two countries, the president said while speaking on the occasion.
General Pervez Musharraf said the joint production of this fighter aircraft would further strengthen and enhance cooperation between the two countries.

Earlier, the President also visited the Design and Research Institute and Avionics labs of the Chengdu aircraft Industrial Corporation.

General Pervez Musharraf also visited the aircraft assembly lines and met with Pakistani Air Force officers who are participating in the joint production of JF-17 Thunder fighter plane


www.pakistanlink.com...



-----------------------------------------

A report is good but a picture is worth a thousand words



posted on Feb, 24 2006 @ 08:18 PM
link   
Well heres another angle of the plane


FC-1 simulator
external image



Development of the FC-1 is going very fast.



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 12:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by chinawhite

Same goes for making comparisions with the F-35


I didn't see a comparison


And theres a good chance the F-16 is being cancelled


Well i think there was a comparison in terms of reduced RCS with the F-35 in the pilot post.

EDIT: What do you mean by "fast"?

When is it supposed to be inducted in both/either of the AFs?

[edit on 25-2-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 02:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Well i think there was a comparison in terms of reduced RCS with the F-35 in the pilot post.


Well i didn't see one.

"The FC-1 04 is very close to JSF F-35 also use DSI and low detect tech"

It said also use low detect tech and not comparing to the F-35 stealth


EDIT: What do you mean by "fast"?
When is it supposed to be inducted in both/either of the AFs?


As in project started in 1995 and is already on the 4th prototype with 16 pre-production aircraft to be built this year

Well thats compared to other projects



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 02:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by chinawhite

Well i didn't see one.

"The FC-1 04 is very close to JSF F-35 also use DSI and low detect tech"

It said also use low detect tech and not comparing to the F-35 stealth



Well the part that you didn't underline looks like a comparision to me, but maybe I misinterepreted.



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 03:00 AM
link   
Well i dont believe emile would say something so stupid since his trying to point out my mistakes on the FC-1 design



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 10:17 AM
link   




Gola Paki Musharraf Went to War
A-Flying in a Thandaar
A-Stuck a wing Sticker
Called it MKI-Slayer

But the thundarr's meeshile missed
cause flanker is very agile
Then it did a Cobra
in Thrust Vectoring style
Locking the Cannon,
Opportunity was Ample

Smoking the thundaar it said
sonny, that was just a sample
'cause you ain't got no thunder!
before - u were a monkeying 'bander'!!
But acak!, now you're only a sore loser



- Anonymous


[edit on 25-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 10:20 AM
link   
Yes... those scientists area ll over him...
But the chair looks a bit unstabile...



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 10:49 AM
link   
The one with the scientists all over him is a pic of a sim.
So i guess it has a really comfy seat!!

Looks like a TV couch that thing!!



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 12:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by emile
China FC-1 04 will fly at 22 this month while Pakistan president Musharraf visit China. The FC-1 04 is very close to JSF F-35 also use DSI and low detect tech. This is a reason why Pakistan has delet order F-16 Block 50/60.


Emile, Mush has visited China and has even "inspected" (lol) the FC-1 factory, and the 22nd of Feb has long passed ... however there is no news of any first flight of the new prototype despite the highly publicised nature of this trip and the large paki media contengent that seem to catch every rumour that is bounced around.

Care to explain why ?

Your info on Pak "deleting" any order for F-16 (and its not block 60) is as false as your first claim.

That part about it using DSI is common knodwledge, but this being the reason the Pakis deleted the F-16 order is also untrue.

Bottomline : Please provide a link or a reference before making absurd claims like this to start threads.

Infact the very prospect of the PAF getting airworthy FC-1's is still in doubt. Russia has still made no announcement that it will provide its RD-93 engines to pakistan after publically cancelling its sale to Pak a few months back following Indian lobbying and pressure. The Pakis have expressed optimism in public, but Russia have said nothing in the public domain in this aspect. Considering the level of Indo-Russian ties i doubt how such an engine sale that make paki jets fly would be possible
And most surely the WS-10 can never get into the FC-1.


Regards.

[edit on 25-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Feb, 25 2006 @ 03:40 PM
link   
FC-1 cockpit....

Hey looks exactly like the same picture i posted before.







[edit on 25-2-2006 by chinawhite]



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 06:57 AM
link   
Now before people put in numerous FC-1 cockpit pics in this and F-16 threads ... here's the parent source ... chinese video on the FC-1...

jczs.sina.com.cn...

Perhaps chinawhite / emile will tell us what is being talked about ?







 
1
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join