The Problem with believers

See I don't know that people get probed. Or abducted or anything else.

Without evidence or proof of that , it is only a belief.

I do know that if another life form traveled through Space to reach Earth , they would have come here for a reason.

The most plausible reason I can think of to single out the Earth as a destination is the Life that exists on Earth. Even our own Scientific community is looking today to single out Planets that harbor life.

If E.T.s found that a life form here was also beginning to explore Space I think they would be interested in that.

If they felt hostile toward humans or were just after our resources, wouldn't they try to limit our reproduction rates? Why not just kill us all? This planet has been over-populated for quite some time now. They haven't done anything to humans to indicate they want to get rid of us.

No, they don't want to destroy us. They have not run off with our resources. They do enjoy watching us. They like to suddenly appear and then disappear. They don't let everybody see them. They don't allow a good video to be made of them. Their cloaking technology reminds me of an octopus!

Maybe they think we are fools.

I think they play tricks on humans all the time. For instance, scientists were exploring the deepest waters off the coast of California and were video-taping sea creature miles below the surface. A small black fish that looked like a guppy swam right to the camera - but it had bright cherry red "Mick Jagger" lips. Hello! Are we their science project?

In addition, what does that say about the alien's maturity level? Maybe we ought to turn the tables on them and start jerking them around.

Maybe our government should admit ufo's are real so we can defend ourselves.

I can't imagine why aliens would bother with us at all. We don't have anything they can't get elsewhere a lot easier. What would they want? Maybe we'd be a mild amusement. Otherwise, pretty boring.

If E.T.s found that a life form here was also beginning to explore Space
I think they would be interested in that.

I don't think they'd care one way or another. Maybe I can't think "alien" enough to imagine why they would be interested. We're not competition, because the universe is plenty big for everybody. If they were interested in communication, they'd have done it already. Companionship? I doubt it.

Try not to think about it from a human perspective or give them human emotions or needs.

shaman...

who says the alleged aliens are singling out Earth? Earth could just be one of many pit stops along the way, ya know?

They might not be interested in life at all… Life could just be getting in the way of what they are Really looking at (whatever that is)…

I’m also not convinced that “they” could get certain resources just any old where… heavy metals are rare, cosmically speaking. It takes a super nova to churn out the heavy stuff.

And just because you had a super nova cook up some of the good stuff for you, that’s no guarantee that the gold, silver, lead, uranium etc. coalesced into nice sized usable chunks just waiting for you to harvest…

It takes a rather unique set of conditions to get a buncha mineral rich planets like we have here in our solar system…

For all we know "they" came here looking for rocks…. and we just get in "their" way *shrugs*

twj

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Well guy's can I use my Mountain Gorilla analogy again here.

Does mankind benefit from the existence of Mountain Gorillas?

Or do we need to enslave them?

Or do we need to exterminate them so we can access their resources?


First question.

Of course we all benefit from Biodiversity. I can imagine this being true on a Galactic scale as well. Especially to any form of intelligent life. Just think how much Humans could benefit if we found and had access to another world full of life? We would not want to destroy it mindlessly.

Second question.

No we don't need or do we want Mountain Gorillas for slaves. They would only do us harm and and we would spend most of our time taking care of them instead of them doing any kind of beneficial work for us.

Third question.

No we don't need the resources of Mountain Gorillas. We benefit much more by allowing them to have there own place and we can just watch them. This would be true on a galactic scale. What does Earth have that other planets do not? If we for instance want farm land we don't go exterminate Mountain Gorillas to get farm land we just farm somewhere else.

Ah, but that leads to a darker conclusion...some hunt gorillas for fun.

Originally posted by lost_shaman
See I don't know that people get probed. Or abducted or anything else.

Without evidence or proof of that , it is only a belief.

I do know that if another life form traveled through Space to reach Earth , they would have come here for a reason.

The most plausible reason I can think of to single out the Earth as a destination is the Life that exists on Earth. Even our own Scientific community is looking today to single out Planets that harbor life.

If E.T.s found that a life form here was also beginning to explore Space I think they would be interested in that.

Realistically, lets assume we find primitive life on another planet. What is going to be a bussiness that is going to boom?
Interstellar Hunting.
"Come see the wild and crazy Goltop! It walks on one leg and can run faster then a cheetah! See how many you can bag!"

torbjon,

Not singling you out , but lets discuss things.

Who says the alleged aliens are singling out Earth? Earth could just be one of many pit stops along the way, ya know?

Possibly but this is where Occam's razor plays a role. We simply do not know if Earth is just Pit Stop so assuming that is not necessary or warranted.

As for singling out the Earth , our own Scientists are looking for life bearing Planets by searching for Oxygen in the Atmospheres of Exo-planets. Its only logical that a life form traveling the Galaxy would be able to identify life bearing planets as well.

They might not be interested in life at all… Life could just be getting in the way of what they are Really looking at (whatever that is)…

Instead of making these assumptions you should ask that last question first.

What is it that would attract interest?

I’m also not convinced that “they” could get certain resources just any old where… heavy metals are rare, cosmically speaking. It takes a super nova to churn out the heavy stuff.

No Super Nova's in our Neighborhood. And if our own Solar System is packed with Heavy Metals almost all of the others are as well. We also know that because we can spectrally analyse the light from Stars and see their composition.

Realistically, lets assume we find primitive life on another planet. What is going to be a bussiness that is going to boom?
Interstellar Hunting.
"Come see the wild and crazy Goltop! It walks on one leg and can run faster then a cheetah! See how many you can bag!"

Your right the very first thing I would do on another Planet is Kill! It will be just like a tripped out Cowboy Bebop Episode! Seriously!

There is no logical reason for aliens to be doing any of the things they appear to be doing. For instance, what do they get out of appearing and disappearing all the time? We appear. We disappear! What is that all about?

Could they be are our ancestors looking in on us from time to time making sure we see these big displays so we'll know there is more to the world than meets the eye?

Are they giving us clues? For what?

I dont really care about who/why/what /when/where Alien Topic.
Its all speculation .

Quote from Lost Shaman --------

No Super Nova's in our Neighborhood. And if our own Solar System is packed with Heavy Metals almost all of the others are as well. We also know that because we can spectrally analyse the light from Stars and see their composition.
--------------------
Super Nova's in our neighborhood ?. -- not in our solar system , but there a some in The Milky way galaxy . ** Science channel 2 days ago - forget the name of the program , but you can probally look it up .
Scientist have discovered something like 14,000 bright Super novas. Just in 1 area of space . wich is somthing like point .0000000010 of space.

I agree with the rest of your statement.
------------------------------------


Quote -- torbjon

I’m also not convinced that “they” could get certain resources just any old where… heavy metals are rare, cosmically speaking. It takes a super nova to churn out the heavy stuff.

** Umm ,, heavy metals arent rare .
----------------------------------------

-- It takes a rather unique set of conditions to get a buncha mineral rich planets like we have here in our solar system…

**** Not True .The planets in our Solar System are not rare at all , they are actually common . .. Only Earth is considered to be rare . as far as we know of .

As for Earth being a Pit stop - Could be .

If you have to go down that road, according to present day science, UFO's and aliens are complete speculation.

How could anyone not be interested in the intent of our UFO/alien visitors? Common sense tells me UFO/alient intent is very relevant!

your right it is all specualtion. but i do believe they exist . I just dont care what they are doing .
I still work . eat , sleep and everything else .

So if Aliens want to abduct Joe Smoe in timbuc two , I dont care .
because there is no proof Joe Smoe was abducted .

If it wer announced on the Every News station in the world that Aliens wer abducting people ect ect . then i would care .

I can beleive in Aliens , but i dont have to care about what they are doing .

IF there is some proof that are Aliens are doing something i should be concernd about , then i'll care .

Im curious to what they are up to , but it doesnt bother or worry me .
no more than fleeting interest .

[edit on 16-2-2006 by Briggs]

shaman…

*laughs*

actually, I don’t have an agenda, I don’t have that big of an ego (not anymore, anyway, that’s a young persons thing and I just ain’t got time fer it *shrugs*), I don’t really care, I Know I’m a dunderhead, I just like chatting with folks and (if I’m lucky) learn a little something in the process.

so don’t worry ‘bout singling me out or pulling punches or picking apart my posts or anything, okay? just have at it, I don’t mind.

So, unless it’s something I Really know a lot about, like, say, seine netting versus gill netting or some such, I tend to google around before I post, which is the case with my previous post, as I was really not up on my stellar nucleosynthesis, galactic distribution of elements, solar system formation and so on…

I spent a few hours reading a buncha stuff before making said post. Most of the links I followed were way technical… I could follow the tech and math and stuff, but major boring headache comrade, lemme tell ya.

However, This one was really good. It combined alla the others I was reading into one unit, along with alla the groovy visual aids, graphs and charts that were spread out over a variety of other web pages, and it’s a reasonably reputable source as far as space stuff goes (NASA).

rst.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Take the 20 minutes to read it and look at alla the pictures before telling me how wrong I am about the abundance of heavy metals in the universe, super nova, and solar system formation.

Yer tellin’ me that “No Super Nova's in our Neighborhood.” Well, there ain’t one NOW but there was one about six billion years ago and we’re the remains of it. Our sun never created anything heavier than Carbon. Alla the heavier stuff came out of a different class of star than the one we are currently orbiting.


Then you tell me “And if our own Solar System is packed with Heavy Metals almost all of the others are as well.” I don’t know about that. From what little I do know we have indeed discovered some other planets orbiting other stars… not up on the exact number, but a couple hundred or so, yes? Also from what I’ve heard what we’ve so far discovered are gas giants orbiting other stars, not nice rocky planets like our own. Again, I’m not up on that and would love to learn more if you have more info to offer.

Then you went on to tell me “We also know that because we can spectrally analyse the light from Stars and see their composition.” Which is way true, lookit alla the groovy little graphs and charts and spectral analysis thingies I found.

Didja even look at any of said charts before sayin’ said charts say something they don’t? Come on comrade, yer better than that *pokes*

They way I read them charts it says the heavy stuff is rare compared to the lighter stuff. The reason Lithium and Beryllium and Boron are so rare is ‘cause of the way they go through the fusion process and get turned into Carbon and Oxygen…

There’s also a low spike around elements 21, 22, and 23 (Scandium, Titanium, and Vanadium) don’t know why exactly but there it is on the chart.

Iron spikes high, (element 26) This has ta do with how some stars work their way to an iron core and just sorta mellow out there *shrugs* Read the paper, it’s a pretty easy read and explains the process in great detail in laymen’s terms.

The charts keep goin’ down as the elements get heavier until ya get to Lead (there’s a spike at element 82) ‘cause Lead is the heaviest Stable element… the stuff heavier than Lead just ain’t alla that stable and decays back into Lead again… (or so they tell me)

After Lead the charts keep goin’ down and down… so, IF I’m reading those charts and graphs right, then there’s a lot more light stuff than heavy stuff in the universe. If I’m not reading them right then hey, ‘splain it to me like I’m a dunderhead, ‘cause, you know, I Am one and I ain’t embarrassed by it.

Then there was this little number: “As for singling out the Earth , our own Scientists are looking for life bearing Planets by searching for Oxygen in the Atmospheres of Exo-planets.”

Well ya, our scientists are lookin’ for life… but the little research I just did leads me to believe they are also lookin’ for Other Stuff, too, like, say, the basic chemical composition of the universe in general. As far as I can tell, scientists are pretty much looking for everything everywhere… that’s kind of what they do, right? The ‘search for life’ isn’t the be all end all of scientific endeavor, is it?

I still think the alleged aliens would be as interested (if not more interested) in our resources as in our life.

What are ya gonna do with Life?

Study it. Poke it, prod it, see what makes it tick. Maybe (maybe) learn something useful from it (Maybe).

What are ya gonna do with resources?

Profit from them. Harvest them and utilize them in your own society to immediately increase the well being of your own people.

Life. mmmph. It’s a curiosity at best. An annoyance at worse. Life is only good if your goal is to “seek out new life and new civilizations”.

If, on the other hand, your goal is to find a new source of Platinum for that special space whatsit that makes your society go around, then hey, have I got a planet for you *smacks lips* Only problem is, the thing is infested with these rodents that still think digital watches are pretty cool…

Shaman, you know me man. I ain’t comin’ down on you… but that’s what I managed ta dig up and that’s my take on it…

duty calls
twj

Yer tellin’ me that “No Super Nova's in our Neighborhood.” Well, there ain’t one NOW but there was one about six billion years ago and we’re the remains of it. Our sun never created anything heavier than Carbon. Alla the heavier stuff came out of a different class of star than the one we are currently orbiting.

O.k. great now we are saying the same thing. The Earth and our solar system and the rest of the Milky way are all formed from the dust and ashes of 'Old SuperNova".

Then you tell me “And if our own Solar System is packed with Heavy Metals almost all of the others are as well.” I don’t know about that. From what little I do know we have indeed discovered some other planets orbiting other stars… not up on the exact number, but a couple hundred or so, yes? Also from what I’ve heard what we’ve so far discovered are gas giants orbiting other stars, not nice rocky planets like our own. Again, I’m not up on that and would love to learn more if you have more info to offer.

The link you posted tells how the first stars that formed soon after the Big Bang produced most of the Heavy Elements found in the Universe today.

Thus, most of the 88 elements of atomic number greater than 4 that occur naturally on Earth (21 more elements have been created solely in the laboratory by particle accelerators, etc.) or have been detected in stars have been, and are being, continuously created not in the first few minutes of the Big Bang but throughout subsequent Universe time within stars and are constantly being redistributed through destruction of stars (mainly by supernovae events) and reorganization of the debris into new stars, dust clouds, and under favorable circumstances into planets. Thus ever newer (younger) stars, as well as the interstellar medium, are becoming progressively richer in elements of atomic numbers greater than 2. Because so many of the stars in the early Universe were massive, short-lived, and subject to explosions, the heavier elements were more rapidly produced and released in the first few billion years than, say, the present.

While Heavy Elements are being created constantly , the Dust and gas that formed our Solar system and the others systems around us and in the milky Way would have come from the same dust and ashes from the "Old SuperNovas". All the stars we can see were formed from dust and gas left over from these dead early Stars. So there is no reason to think that Earth has any monopoly on Elements.

Didja even look at any of said charts before sayin’ said charts say something they don’t? Come on comrade, yer better than that *pokes*

Actually , I just read about the abundance of Heavy Elements found in the Stars Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 just a few weeks ago.

Zeta-1 and Zeta-2 RETICULI - A puzzling solar-type twin system

da Silva, L.; Foy, R.

Astronomy and Astrophysics (ISSN 0004-6361), vol. 177, no. 1-2, May 1987, p. 204-216.

They way I read them charts it says the heavy stuff is rare compared to the lighter stuff. The reason Lithium and Beryllium and Boron are so rare is ‘cause of the way they go through the fusion process and get turned into Carbon and Oxygen…

Rare in the Universe is relative. All elements Heavier than Hydrogen are considered to be Metals in astronomy , and Hydrogen composes something like 99% of the Universe.

Then there was this little number: “As for singling out the Earth , our own Scientists are looking for life bearing Planets by searching for Oxygen in the Atmospheres of Exo-planets.”

You asked if I had more info. I do .

Planet Hunters find Earth size Planet , predict Alien Life discovered by 2020!

If you still don't think they would interested in life , let me just ask what is the most exciting field of Chemistry?

Its Organic Chemistry of course!

hey, those are some great links... I have some reading to do...

I thought it was on that page I gave you, maybe I read it else where... (lot of reading lately) but somewhere I saw that there Was a super nova in our neck of the woods about six billion years ago and that our system is the remains of said nova...

also on that page I gave you was a chart showing the abundence of elements on Earth... it was next to a simular chart showing elements for the universe in general... I thought it made for an interesting comparison...

If Nola permits I'm gonna do a little reading now and I'll get back to you

(obviously I'm taking alla this on faith... I'm guessing you are too, right? I mean, I'm Not running light through a spectrometer and analyzing the results... I just read other peoples stuff...from what I can gather there are conflicting views about our cosmology... perhaps the "we're the remains of a recent super nova" theory is bogus *shrugs* I dunno)

At this point, after having just read your post and nothing else, I'm still under the impression that the quest for resources (and a habital planet suitable for colonization would fall under that catagory) would be a more driving force than the quest to "seek out new life..." but that's just me.

will get back to you when Nola permits.

rock on
twj

*laughs*

hey, I give you a groovy link in laymen's terms with funky color charts and stuff...

you give me a 13 page pdf with lists and lists of numbers and enough math to make my head explode... it's gonna take me a month of sundays to plough through alla that *laughs*

can I cry foul??

The other link about the "earth like planet", okay, I followed that to your thread and read through it and the news clippings you provided there (why didn't you just put the news clips here, too?... no biggy)

okay, that's a little misleading comrade. That's not an "earth type planet" that's a...

"-- an icy, rocky world 5 1/2 times the size of Earth orbiting a star 28,000 light-years away" (washington post)

"- the surface temperature is believed to be -220C" (NEWS.scotsman.com)

The articles make a lotta assumptions and predictions about what they will find next (which is probably true, but they haven't found them yet...)

as far as the big frozen rock goes, that's Way Cool! Perhaps a mineral hungry alien would find it tastey... however I could see the extremely low temperature and higher gravity... I'm assuming it has a higher gravity than Earth... cutting into the profit margin...

I dunno... I compare galactic mining to our mundane Earthly mining... our oceans are Full of groovy minerals.... TONS of the stuff, but we have yet to find a cost effective way to harvest it.

The 'vacuum' of interstellar space is the same way, just FULL of groovy atoms and even molecules... harvesting them though... the cost of that could be too prohibitive even for a star trek like civilization...

okay...

I'm gonna try to wade through this pdf again *sighs* (you're sadistic, you know that don't you? *laughs*)

rock on
twj

Originally posted by torbjon

I thought it was on that page I gave you, maybe I read it else where... (lot of reading lately) but somewhere I saw that there Was a super nova in our neck of the woods about six billion years ago and that our system is the remains of said nova...

The Stars Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 are around 39 light years from us. They are older than the Sun and have a higher Metallicity.

Meaning that these Stars would have formed from dust and gases that were richer in Heavy Elements than our Sun and solar system respectively.

From your link earlier.

although there can be complexities, in general metal-poor stars are young in appearance (either near the outer limits of the Universe which show stars that formed in the first few billion years after the Big Bang or stars formed more recently from gas clouds that have had little contribution of heavier elements from supernovae) and short-lived; 5) metal-rich stars from F, G, K, and M positions on the Main Sequence are redder than stars of similar sizes (masses); and 6) dust around a star will make it redder.

Overall, the rule of thumb is just that a star will show a metallicity that depends on prior processes that have changed the composition of the interstellar gas in the neighborhood in which it forms. This is a function mainly of the number of supernovae that have occurred previous to the formation of the star and the amounts of metals each ejected that then became mixed into the cloud that supplies the star (and other stars growing from this cloud). Since, over time the gas composition in the interstellar medium should progressively enrich in metals, then those stars that are metal-rich tend to have organized in later stages of a galaxy's history.

Now, just think about this for a minute. The universe is getting progressively richer in metals. Younger Stars are richer in heavy elements than older Stars in the Universe ( Stars produce heavy elements internally over time , strictly talking about the dust and gasses they formed from).

Considering that the Sun (sol) is relatively young , and some our own Neighboring Stars that are older are Richer in Metals than the Sun(sol) it suggests that our Solar system might even be Metal Poor compared to other Stars of similar age. It really all depends on the amount of elements present in the Dust and gas that the star formed out of.

(obviously I'm taking alla this on faith... I'm guessing you are too, right? I mean, I'm Not running light through a spectrometer and analyzing the results... I just read other peoples stuff...from what I can gather there are conflicting views about our cosmology... perhaps the "we're the remains of a recent super nova" theory is bogus *shrugs* I dunno)

Everything you see , all the Stars in the night sky were formed from debris of SuperNovas and gas left over after the big bang. It all mixes together and gets richer in Elements over time.

Super Novas happen so yes there would have been Super Novas in the neighborhood in the past . They would have happened everywhere.

So you see there is no reason to think Earth is rich in Elements and other places are Poor. The entire Universe is undergoing the exact same process.

At this point, after having just read your post and nothing else, I'm still under the impression that the quest for resources (and a habital planet suitable for colonization would fall under that catagory) would be a more driving force than the quest to "seek out new life..." but that's just me.

The thread about Rocky Planets being discovered has Astronomers telling that they now think smaller Earth-like bodies are the norm and not the exception.

Now consider that if Colonization were the goal of UFOs, why have they not colonized this planet yet?

Or mined any minerals?

Believing that they are here to do those things , is a belief. It is not supported by any evidence. The evidence suggests the opposite, that they are not here for those reasons.

Edit: I'm not sadistic , I didn't mean for you to wade through a bunch of Math. You basically have everything correct , but these process occurred everywhere not just near Earth.

This link is basically hard to follow but its the best could find as is discusses the process in which Stars and Super Novas synthesis Elements. And my point is that these process occurred throughout the Universe. And Elemental distribution has been a fairly constant and universal process that occurs naturally in the Universe. Elemental distribution is predetermined in Nature by the Nature of Star generation and redistribution.

So there is no reason to think that Earth has anything that you can't find elsewhere Chemically other than "Life".

Plus if they just wanted minerals you have to consider that Earth is a little tiny Planet that as far as we can tell does not have any High concentration of Exotic Minerals.

core.ecu.edu...




[edit on 17-2-2006 by lost_shaman]

(I think we’ve hijacked this thread…. sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to you…)

Okay, as near as I could tell after plowing through that paper, Zeta 1 and 2 are iron core stars with an excess of helium in their outer shells… no mention of mineral rich orbiting bodies though… just the stars themselves…

(and you Are sadistic *pokes*)

okay, check This out:

www.humboldt.edu...

I look at that graph and see that everything heavier than atomic number 50 falls below the 2 mark (Hydrogen is at 10, Carbon and Oxygen are between 7 and 8, Iron is around 6, Nickel is about 5, Lead is down at about a 1 while Uranium comes in at a whopping –2)

I see this chart and come to the conclusion that the heavy stuff really isn’t alla that common, galactically speaking. Especially heavy stuff concentrated in a location where organic life forms can harvest it.

Here’s a Great Page on novae and super novae (Not like the brain burner you gave me *laughs*)

www.pas.rochester.edu...

Everything Heavy came outta novae / super novae. You, Me, this planet we live on, all of it.

Just because a Nova made the stuff and blew it off into space is no guarantee that said stuff is going to form into a planetary body where an organic life form can live and play… a lot of that heavy stuff is gonna get sucked up by other stars and help them along the road to Nova…

So far I’m not seeing anything to sway me away from my original premise:

Heavy stuff is rare.

Heavy stuff concentrated in a location that is harvestable by organic life forms is even more rare.

We are sitting on a large concentration of heavy stuff that Is harvestable by organic life forms.

That is one possible reason why organic life forms would find this planet interesting.

The fact that we happen to be living on this planet is just an added bonus (or nuisance) to the resource seeking life forms…

okay, duty calls
twj