U.S. and Israel plans to overthrow Hamas.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne


No matter what cute little Marine crap you can come up with.

What, exactly does that mean? Obscure cultural reference? An insult?

Originally posted by maldives01

As a fledgling nation the Palestinian people have aspirations just like you and me - they don't want to kill Israelis or Americans or anyone else really

I do not know where you got your information or if you are just talking about what you think is the situation?

Maybe you can provide a source, a poll or something for your claims?

In the meantime, the Terror Group HAMAS - elected by the people in the PA - did not recognize Israel and they still do not recognize Israel. This is what their website published after their victory in the Jan 2006 elections:

HAMAS suicide bombers' videotape: 'We drink Jews' blood'

A Hamas Web site recently published the videotape wills of two suicide bombers, with two main messages:

One is directed to the Jews whose blood Hamas pledges to drink until they flee from the land of the Muslims,

and the other is devoted to a mother who helps her son plan a suicide attack

The Terror Organisation HAMAS also admits it received funds, assistance in training activists from an other Terror Organisation: Hizbullah

Hamas: Hizbullah funded us

The Hamas organization officially announced for the first time that it has received funding and assistance in training from the Lebanese Hizbullah terror group.

A report posted on Hamas' website recently, describes the establishment of the organization's first cell in Ramallah, immediately following the outbreak of the intifada.

According to the report, after the cell was founded, its members began looking for appropriate funding for their activity.

Two funding channels were consequently opened, one vis-à-vis Hizbullah, by sending activists to Lebanon to train and return with money, and the other internal – money raised in the West Bank.

Hi Riwka,

In answer to your question, my post was basically my opinion, based on news reports, commentaries I have read etc. Thought that was clear when I wrote it - maybe I should have said - haven't got an "embarrased smiley" otherwise I would put one here!

Just to answer a couple of your points though - think you maybe left the most relevant part of my post out when you quoted me - you should have posted the whole sentence rather than an abbreviated version which really takes the whole thing out of context somewhat I think. Should have been

"As a fledgling nation the Palestinian people have aspirations just like you and me - they don't want to kill Israelis or Americans or anyone else really( I'm talking about the average Joe Palestinian here and not the more radical personae they have, as have all other nations.) "

I'm sure that all the average guy really wants is a decent home, stability, food, a few creature comforts and the ability to better himself and see his children grow up into a world where this is possible - I guess if given the choice between this and the option of destroying Israel he would choose the former every time wouldn't he?

I know my country has er, radicals and extremists, and I'm sure that yours has too, as has every other country in the world. I fail to see how this can be in dispute. Sadly, I guess this will always be so

In the last General Election in the UK, the Labour Party were returned to power, winning 35.9% of the popular vote, believe it or not, less than the Hamas percentage. Here's a link -

politics.guardian.co.uk...

Seems like this result also

"should be seen as a freak produced by a combination of peculiar electoral rules and political uncertainties. "

This is what I meant when I said that I wouldn't read too much into the percentages of the vote. Again, I don't think the Labour Party and Hamas are the only ones put into power by a less than 50% popular vote result - I'm sure that there are other countries where similar things occur.

In conclusion, I still think that Hamas should be given a chance. I'm sure that some of the votes they got were as a direct result of things happening elsewhere in the world - a protest vote if you like. Also there would have been an element of dissatisfaction with Fatah. Like it or not, the Palestinians have voted for Hamas and that should be respected - as I said they are already making encouraging noises, for example could you imagine them offering a truce under ANY circumstances a year or two ago? They are, albeit slowly, moving in the right direction i.e. away from downright hostility. They are now entering uncharted territory for them in the sense that they now have the opportunity to change things for the better, both for the Palestinian people and their neighbours. We should at least give them a chance to do so and stop this threatening talk of "regime change". Now they are in power, they have to look at things differently - power brings with it responsibility. At least give them the chance to grow. All peoples of the world need peace and stability - in my opinion

Originally posted by maldives01

"As a fledgling nation the Palestinian people have aspirations just like you and me - they don't want to kill Israelis or Americans or anyone else really( I'm talking about the average Joe Palestinian here and not the more radical personae they have, as have all other nations.) "

Still my question is: Do you have any source that "as a nation" the Palestinians do NOT support suicide attacks?

Originally posted by maldives01

In conclusion, I still think that Hamas should be given a chance.

Of course! If the Terror Organisation Hamas

disarms

recognizes Israel (= also change the Hamas charter)

commits all agreements like Oslo and the road map

everybody in the world gives them a chance!

[edit on 16-2-2006 by Riwka]

actually, hamas was nurtured and funded by MOSSAD becouse jews were afraid of Arafat...

www.globalresearch.ca...

and


www.globalresearch.ca... icle&code=ZER20060127&articleId=1818

"Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation"

"Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".


Yes and now when they are in power they are too dangerous becouse they are not controlled anymore

Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by maldives01

"As a fledgling nation the Palestinian people have aspirations just like you and me - they don't want to kill Israelis or Americans or anyone else really( I'm talking about the average Joe Palestinian here and not the more radical personae they have, as have all other nations.) "

Still my question is: Do you have any source that "as a nation" the Palestinians do NOT support suicide attacks?

Originally posted by maldives01

Where in my post do I say that? In brackets - I'm talking about the average Joe Palestinian here etc. I quite clearly state "I'm talking". Trying to be as clear as I can here. It is, as stated earlier, my view, based on commentaries, news etc. that I have read. I can, if you would like, provide links to articles where Palestinians have been interviewed and to not muddy the waters too much, basically they say that really that's all they, as a person or family, want. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that because Hamas has been voted into power, then Israel will be annihalated, or something along these lines. You know and I know that this is not going to happen - no Air Force, no Army to speak of and no real way of ever creating one that could possibly carry this out faced with the undoubted military might of Israel. You have to read beyond the rhetoric sometimes - you know, the crap that politicians in every single country in the world spout. My whole point is that you can see movement with Hamas - they are saying things which are, however marginally, more conciliatory than they have ever been - I will provide links if you wish to back up this statement.

Sorry Riwka - seem to have mixed up the quoting bit - hope you get the gist of it - I'll rewrite it if you don't.



[edit on 16-2-2006 by maldives01]

Hi Nukunuku,

Interesting articles - wasn't aware of that at all - but I am no expert I'll be the first to admit! Here's an interview from a Mustapha Barghouti - and whilst I don't agree with everything he says, he raises several interesting points as well in my opinion.

www.newleftreview.net...

Here is an interview with Marwan Barghouti - must be a relatively common name in those parts!

Quote "Believe me, the Israelis consider everybody against occupation is a terrorist. It's not true."

www.channel4.com...
?id=1576

Again, I don't agree with everything he says, but an interesting interview.

Originally posted by maldives01
Hi Nukunuku,

Interesting articles - wasn't aware of that at all - but I am no expert I'll be the first to admit! Here's an interview from a Mustapha Barghouti - and whilst I don't agree with everything he says, he raises several interesting points as well in my opinion.

www.newleftreview.net...

Here is an interview with Marwan Barghouti - must be a relatively common name in those parts!

Quote "Believe me, the Israelis consider everybody against occupation is a terrorist. It's not true."

www.channel4.com...
?id=1576

Again, I don't agree with everything he says, but an interesting interview.

Hi maldives,

I am no expert either, thats why i read a lot

this segment from your first link is very ineresting :

What about Hamas?

"During the 1980s, Israel encouraged the growth of fundamentalism, especially in Gaza but also in the West Bank, as a way of undermining secular resistance movements. Islamists were free to move around and their charities could operate openly, while we had no official existence. Some groups were even subsidized. By building up Muslim fundamentalism, the Israelis hoped to undermine the plo. The same thing happened in Egypt and other Arab states—a gamble which soon backfired. Hamas, an acronym for ‘Islamic Resistance Movement’, was founded in the spring of 1988. It was an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, a relatively moderate, traditional movement, unlike many Shi’ite groups for instance; in Egypt and Jordan it formed a fairly mild opposition which did not challenge the nature of the government, as Islamic Jihad did. "

Well isnt that nice, make yourself a sacrificial lamb in case of emergency, that you can dispose of when you have no need for it anymore.

good links, ill read the rest of it later, there is indeed more to things than people care to find out.

peace.

I have to say the implication that Hamas was elected only because of Mossads' help intrigueing to say the least! Brings to mind the old saying " Be careful what you wish for - it may come true" doesn't it? Just goes to show I guess that "regime change" should never be contemplated except in extreme cases like Pol Pot maybe - food for thought.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Everything Israel claims to want short or recognition is in an open offer on the Table.
But of course, as most everyone knows, Israel wants far more than they openly claim.
All of the land with all non-Jews kicked out is what they want.

All they want is to be recognized.
If Israel wanted the land they would just take it, the way palestine is doing it.
Israel wants peace, to be recognized as a nation by the people of palestine, and freedom from terrorism.

The Palestinians have had Government backed terrorist attacks going on against israel for the past several decades, it was only logical for Israel to step in and end it. They tried negotiations since the 80's, and now some 20 years later have finally resorted to violence to attempt to stem the attacks against themselves.

If someone hit you would you negotiate with them about not doing it agian or would you just hit them back?
Assuming you turn the proverbial cheeck and they hit you again what do you do?
Personally, I'd fight back at the first blow, but Israel has waited till just reciently to fight back.
There comes a time when enough is enough and you have to stop your oppressors.

Now Israel is the bad guys because they used an army instead of terrorists with bombs strapped to themselves whos families were funded by the government to compensate their loss, all in the name of god/allah

Originally posted by maldives01

"As a fledgling nation the Palestinian people have aspirations just like you and me -
they don't want to kill Israelis [emph. added by Riwka]
or Americans or anyone else really( I'm talking about the average Joe Palestinian here and not the more radical personae they have, as have all other nations.) "

[...]I can, if you would like, provide links to articles[...]

Yes please. As said before, I would like you to provide serious polls to prove your claim.“they don’t want to kill Israelis“

Have you ever heard of 56-year-old Miriam Umm Nidal Farhat the "mother of martyrs" - whose three sons, raised on incessant hatred, joined Hamas, one of them killing five Israelis before being shot, the others engaging in other anti-Israel actions and killed by Israel?
Her own remorseless expression of hatred is chilling. Farhat declares that even Israeli women and "old people" are occupiers and "all means are legitimate" against them.

I do NOT say Palestinians as a nation are like her, BUT she was just elected by her fellow Palestinians to the Palestinian legislature.

Originally posted by maldives01

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that because Hamas has been voted into power, then Israel will be annihalated, or something along these lines.

Did you ever read The charter of the HAMAS?

Or did you read news about the attacks against Israel, when the Terrorist Organisation HAMAS poudly claimed responsibility? Their words are not at all 'just rhetoric'.


The Terrorist Organisation HAMAS - an offshoot of the (Egypt's banned) Muslim Brotherhood movement (

Well Riwka you can be sure they (palestinians) dont trust you either, theres so much tension between both parties involved it would really take an act of god to resolve the mess that is Israeli-Palestine question.

Riwka - I have already stated that it was my opinion, I cannot be clearer than that. I can give you no evidence from polls ( as if that would alter anything!) It is my opinion based on articles and news and interviews that I have read. My opinion, of which I am entitled. As you are to be sceptical - after all, you are from Israel - a guess - and obviously much closer to things. Another point, being a terrorist does not necessarily preclude a person from taking office does it? Nelson Mandela for example, who freely admits to being a bomb maker - now a well respected world statesman. (This is a specific statement to which I will provide a link if requested, but it would be off-topic.) There are lots of other examples as well. I am not saying that Hamas are angels or saints or that they have the answer to all of our hopes, or the right to remove Israel from the map - all I'm saying is that they should be given a chance. The Middle East has been in turmoil for too long - I think we can at least agree on that - I feel that any opportunity for peace and stability should be taken.

I have to ask a couple questions, here.

Why is it necessary to say that they (the "Palestinians") do not trust the Israelis? That isn't what I would call a revelation, but I will say that it is not because the Israelis are on par with the Islamic Resistance Movement or Fatah, who have for years taught people to hate and mistrust the Israelis. They have taught them to use their own bodies as an explosives carriers to blow up innocent people. This has not changed, so why is it that they would change? Why should they learn to trust the targets of their hatred and murder? No doubt, they do not trust them.

maldives01, how is it that you can have an opinion that is contrary to fact, and when clear and unmistakable fact is offered to you, you stick to your opinion?
You also make the claim that their is an intriguing implication that the Islamic Resistance Movement won the election with the help of Mossad. Do you realize that an implication means nothing? Let me ask you, when did you stop beating your wife?

To suggest that anyone should trust a terrorist organization that still demands the destruction of a nation, especially when the nation is a little one like Israel and the organization is so intimate and close to the country. The new government will be a group that is responsible for over 60 homicide bombings and scores of dead innocent, and has given not only no indication that they have had a change of heart, but quite the opposite.

There are special safe places for those who refuse to accept reality. Places where the crayons taste good and medication is given on a regular basis.

[edit on 16-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Hi Thomas - answers to a couple of your questions:

"You also make the claim that their is an intriguing implication that the Islamic Resistance Movement won the election with the help of Mossad. Do you realize that an implication means nothing? Let me ask you, when did you stop beating your wife? "

Well, firstly the"claim" refers to a link supplied by Nukunuku which obviously you missed whilst reading the thread here it is again -

www.globalresearch.ca...

This quotes a guy who is Professor of History at the University of Jerusalem. I found it intriguing.

Secondly, what wife?

Thirdly the place with the crayons - I nearly choked with laughter.............


[edit on 16-2-2006 by maldives01]tipings not my strong point

[edit on 16-2-2006 by maldives01]

Thank you. It is very seldom I come across another poster with a sense of humor.
Here, have one. I find the blue ones taste the best.

Don't mind if i do

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
To suggest that anyone should trust a terrorist organization that still demands the destruction of a nation, especially when the nation is a little one like Israel and the organization is so intimate and close to the country. The new government will be a group that is responsible for over 60 homicide bombings and scores of dead innocent, and has given not only no indication that they have had a change of heart, but quite the opposite.

[edit on 16-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Poor little Israel, they are so vulnerable ...
www.desert-voice.net...

60 homicide bombings over what period of time?

In the United States,
500 people are killed each week in alcohol related accidents.
25,000 people are killed each year.

I think it would be fair to say that the alchoholics in this country are at least 10x as deadly as Hamas, all of their victims are innocent men women and children and what are these alchoholics fighting for now?
the right to drink and drive again.
Do you embrace them?

I guess it's just a better source of entertainment while you are eating purple crayons to point your finger outside of our borders when you are calling out murderers.

The USG has turned your attention towards 'terrorist' activities on the other side of the world while they are suffocating us in broad daylight.

Your living in THE FOG !





Edit: Inadvertent nasty link.

[edit on 16-2-2006 by intrepid]

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Without a partner for peace why should Hamas listen to America, or Israel?

it should be noted somewhere that Hamas and partner for peace were used in the same sentence. please adjust the record books accordingly and open the window as monkeys will now fly out of your butt.


Hamas will want peace but not until after they learn that being in control of Palestine means they can no longer support terrorism. I'm guessing there will be one terror act that Hamas will either support or at the very least, not condone, and then Israel will say "act of war by Palestine" and that will be that for the region.


what Hamas probably hasn't yet realized is that the power they won in the election gives them the power to continue stealing and syphoning money to line their own pockets. Once they see the corruption they can commit, they will no longer openly promote the violent acts they are so closely associated with. Like Arafat and the others, they will have to take a back seat to the public promotion of terror attacks against Israel. This is best done floating in the gov't paid for pool in their backyard or the 68 degree temperate zone the gov't paid for central air conditioning will creat in their fabulous new home.

Sub, you miss the point that Hamas is a TERRORIST organization, demanding the destruction of Israel.

Speaking of fog. You seem to miss the point.