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U.S. and Israel plans to overthrow Hamas.

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posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:04 AM
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JERUSALEM, Feb. 14 — The United States and Israel are discussing ways to destabilize the Palestinian government so that newly elected Hamas officials will fail and elections will be called again, according to Israeli officials and Western diplomats.

The intention is to starve the Palestinian Authority of money and international connections to the point where, some months from now, its president, Mahmoud Abbas, is compelled to call a new election. The hope is that Palestinians will be so unhappy with life under Hamas that they will return to office a reformed and chastened Fatah movement.

The officials also argue that a close look at the election results shows that Hamas won a smaller mandate than previously understood.

The officials and diplomats, who said this approach was being discussed at the highest levels of the State Department and the Israeli government, spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to speak publicly on the issue.


It looks like the deal is to pressure Hamas to renounce violence in return to keep the money and support flowing. Don't know if cutting off aid would help when Hamas can turn to Syria or Iran for help to keep the Palestinian people happy, which they elected Hamas in the first place, that a Hamas control govt. would establish a peaceful prosperous country.




posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:24 AM
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I believe the Saudis have said they will cover any shortfall.

The article is all unsupported supposition, and outright offensive.

America and Israel should accept Hamas's truece offer, but thats not what Israel wants.

Without a partner for peace why should Hamas listen to America, or Israel?

What more can they do to achieve peace?

Everything Israel claims to want short or recognition is in an open offer on the Table.

But of course, as most everyone knows, Israel wants far more than they openly claim.

All of the land with all non-Jews kicked out is what they want.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
I believe the Saudis have said they will cover any shortfall.

The article is all unsupported supposition, and outright offensive.

America and Israel should accept Hamas's truece offer, but thats not what Israel wants.

Without a partner for peace why should Hamas listen to America, or Israel?

What more can they do to achieve peace?

Everything Israel claims to want short or recognition is in an open offer on the Table.

But of course, as most everyone knows, Israel wants far more than they openly claim.

All of the land with all non-Jews kicked out is what they want.


You are kidding right? Hamas has done all it can for peace? We are talking about HAMAS here, not HUMMUS. And 99% of anything you have EVER posted has been from articles that are "unsupported supposition" and always offensive. You need to come back to reality AA.

AA, I suggest if you hate the west so much that you move away from it. If Hamas is so innocent and dear to you, or the Iraqi "resistance" is so wholesome to you, maybe you should move from Florida to Baghdad or Gaza? Put your money where your mouth is.



[edit on 14-2-2006 by skippytjc]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:36 AM
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Hmm those pesky 'Western Diplomats' again.

If Hamas are willing to tone it down don't see what justification there could be for ignoring the democratic will of the people.

Or is democracy only OK if it returns the result you wanted in the first place?



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:51 AM
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I think we all agree that Hamas should "tone it down."

However, these people did vote for "the bad guys." This election was pretty fair, right? From what I have read, our last two presidential elections here in the States have been riddled with more shenannigans than the Palentinian's.

It is a hell of a conundrum. While we are fighting for democracy (or we are supposed to), we are also fighting terrorists.

We need to find the fine line between the two before we enforce any policies.

I just wish we could trust Bush&Co to do the right thing.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 11:00 AM
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The entire reason for Hamas' existence is to throw Israel into the sea.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Strangerous
Hmm those pesky 'Western Diplomats' again.

If Hamas are willing to tone it down don't see what justification there could be for ignoring the democratic will of the people.

Or is democracy only OK if it returns the result you wanted in the first place?


Again with the Democracy thing. Who said something being Democratic makes it good?
The Islamic Resistance Movement, a terrorist organization responsible for over 60 homicide bombings, is now the elected Palestinian Authority. That does not give them credibility, but paints the entire group of people with a bad color.

The Islamic Resistance Movement refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, agrees to abide by earlier agreements only if they like the agreements and refuse to enter into a peace discussion with Israel. I really don't see how they have bent over backwards to do a thing except insure there is a continuing rift between the two sides.



[edit on 14-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 11:36 AM
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I'd agree if you (and us) didn't invade countries on the justification of 'establishing democracy'

If Hamas agree to non-violent means but remain ideologically opposed to Israel then no issue - same, same with Sinn Fein/PIRA



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 12:58 PM
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Exactly. We have justified (or tried to justify) the war in Iraq by saying that we are there to bring them democracy. We are there to ensure that they are free to choose leaders, policies, etc...

Right?

The fact that they are choosing the bad guys is a completely separate issue, correct?



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy

The intention is to starve the Palestinian Authority of money


it is the Terror Organisation HAMAS who does not at all want the money..at least, they say so:



Associated Press: A-Zahar rejects 'satanic' US aid

Hamas leader Mahmoud A-Zahar vowed Monday not to bow to American threats to cut aid.

"I wish America would cut off its aid. We do not need this satanic money," Zahar said in Cairo.

"Recognizing the state of the Israeli enemy is not on the table," he said.
"Our program is to liberate Palestine, all of Palestine....The Qassam Brigades will continue to increase in numbers, supplies, and weapons...until the liberation is completed."

"Anyone who thinks the calm means giving in is mistaken. The calm is in preparation for a new round of resistance and victory."




Originally posted by deltaboy

The officials also argue that a close look at the election results shows that Hamas won a smaller mandate than previously understood.



Yes, that is right.




60% of Palestinians Voted Against Hamas

The results of the Palestinian election should be seen as a freak produced by a combination of peculiar electoral rules and political uncertainties.

Hamas ended up with 74 out of 132 seats in the Palestinian National Assembly but won only 40% of the popular vote -

which means that 60% voted against it.

Thus, Hamas does not represent the majority on the ground.





[edit on 14-2-2006 by Riwka]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

The Islamic Resistance Movement refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, agrees to abide by earlier agreements only if they like the agreements and refuse to enter into a peace discussion with Israel. I really don't see how they have bent over backwards to do a thing except insure there is a continuing rift between the two sides.



[edit on 14-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]


Is that why the Israeli flag is flying next to the American flag at the fright-house now? because the USG is bending over backwards to put themselves in a position to kill MORE innocent Muslim women and children when they go to war with the Jews? As if the Israeli army needs our military's support.
At least Hamas isn't afraid to keep their issues with the enemy on the 'front burner'.

And keep in mind that if the ELITE didn't want Hamas in control right now, they wouldn't be.

What makes the cash flow?
The same thing that makes the grass grow... blood.

[edit on 14-2-2006 by Submersible]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 02:01 PM
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Understand, I understand that we leave behind Democratic governments. This doesn't mean that is a good thing. As a matter of fact, you can ask Soficrow what I think of Democracy.

Still, we aren't going to war (officially) to spread Democracy around the world. Also, the fact that the Islamic Resistance Movement was elected doesn't diminish the fact that they are what they are, and they still stand behind their charter and beliefs.

No matter what cute little Marine crap you can come up with, Hamas is as it is, and there is no logical reason to embrace them, unless you embrace their charter and their bombers. They have not changed their position. To treat them as they have would be insane. Really, it would be insane.

Or is it that some agree with the Hamas charter? I don't know.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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I remember posting something along the lines of "give them a chance" when the news first broke about Hamas winning the election. They won the election - regardless of all the recent talk about the margin not being as big as expected - don't make too much of things like " they won only 40% of the popular vote etc. - just look at England - what was the Labour Party's proportion of the popular vote at the last election? I am sure that now they are in power there will be a shift in their attitude towards a lot of things. There has already been the stirrings of realism in some of their utterings, not all, but movement in the right direction at least. Israel and the US should really just butt out and let them get on with it. As a fledgling nation the Palestinian people have aspirations just like you and me - they don't want to kill Israelis or Americans or anyone else really( I'm talking about the average Joe Palestinian here and not the more radical personae they have, as have all other nations.) No doubt some of the recent popularity of Hamas has been a response to the things that the West has been doing and saying, and Israel too. In a way who can blame them? Leave them alone and give help and encouragement and who Knows where this may lead. We may even see the stirrings of peace in this much-troubled part of the world.

[edit on 14-2-2006 by maldives01] spellng is not always my strong point


[edit on 14-2-2006 by maldives01]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 02:50 PM
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The only potentially successful stance I see even being optioned is allowing Hamas to take hold. We need to respect the will of the people. If we give them a chance to play a true role in the region and they throw it away in favor of violence, we can have all the conflict we want since we are no longer battling an ideology, but rather a nation of people.

No more of us liberals whining about civilian deaths. If Hamas chooses to remain a violent, terrorist organization rather than a governing body, we can wage an honest war against an honest enemy. Right?



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

No matter what cute little Marine crap you can come up with, Hamas is as it is, and there is no logical reason to embrace them, unless you embrace their charter and their bombers. They have not changed their position. To treat them as they have would be insane. Really, it would be insane.

Or is it that some agree with the Hamas charter? I don't know.


Do you embrace the millions of men women and children who received chemotherapy treatment this morning?
What bothers you most about the suicide bombers?

Are they 'insane' because they die with their handfull of victims, or are they just not worth comparing to the men who kill of thousands of people each day with the stroke of a pen?

To 'judge' any one, or any one organized group of people in this world without using the atrocities the USG is committing on their own people is insane.
There is a 'base line' of destruction and murder that Americans are willing to accept while we point our fingers at the MINOR problems in other parts of the world.
Maybe if everybody who is going to die from cancer this week could all get together and die at the same time...
then it would be news and discussion worthy?
The science and political 'process' that is consuming US have not changed their stance either.




[edit on 14-2-2006 by Submersible]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 03:26 PM
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I dont think this will work. Whenever a right winged party gets into power theres a reason. The reason why Hamas got into power is the same as why Hitler got into power. Bad economic situation and the feeling of being humiliated.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by Strangerous
I'd agree if you (and us) didn't invade countries on the justification of 'establishing democracy'

If Hamas agree to non-violent means but remain ideologically opposed to Israel then no issue - same, same with Sinn Fein/PIRA


And Hamas has offered just this for a long time.

An end to violent actions in exchange for an Israeli withdraw behind pre-war borders.

They Want Israel gone, and the Israelies want them gone, but Hamas is at least willing to consider a way to end the conflict.

Israel refuses to consider their offer proving them to not be a partner for peace.

All they are asking for is what Israel took in the 1967 Sneak Attack.

Is that asking too much?

Just give back what you took?

Liberating the people is a bad thing?

[edit on 14-2-2006 by ArchAngel]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 06:37 PM
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Please, AA, no one wants about your bloody sneak attack again. You know where it will lead when you bring this up, yet you continue to do it. You know it will inflame other members and we'll all get off on a tangent and this thread will become about Middle Eastern conflicts and who started them. Not worth it.

Anyhow, on topic, Hamas is a Terrorist organization whose goals and aspirations are not held private. We all know what those goals are, no surprise there. Does anyone really expect those goals to change? I don't. I dont care if they really won the election or not, I would not support Hamas. Now whose to say that when we send our financial aid to them, that they will not use some of it to fund certain activities. I'm sure money will go to people, it will if they want to stay in power anyhow.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by Strangerous
Hmm those pesky 'Western Diplomats' again.

If Hamas are willing to tone it down don't see what justification there could be for ignoring the democratic will of the people.

Or is democracy only OK if it returns the result you wanted in the first place?

I agree if its democracy its democracy why do we have to undermine other nations. I thought we were suppose to perserve democracy not destroy it.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by PsychoSteve85

I agree if its democracy its democracy why do we have to undermine other nations. I thought we were suppose to perserve democracy not destroy it.


Actually its not a democracy.

Palestine is not sovereign.

They have been occupied by Israel for two generations now.

Before the 1967 sneak attack they were not under Israeli military control.

Its little different than when South Africa allowed the people to vote for local government in the villages.

They are not allowed to become Israeli citizens, and are not represented in the government.



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