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The Decline and Fall of Europe

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posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 08:29 AM
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Feb. 20, 2006 issue - Cartoons and riots made the headlines in Europe last week, but a far less fiery event, the publication of an academic study, might shed greater light on the future of the Continent. The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, headquartered in Paris, released a report, Going for Growth, that details economic prospects in the industrial world. It is 160 pages long and written in bland, cautious, scholarly prose. But the conclusion is clear—Europe is in deep trouble. These days we all talk about the rise of Asia and the challenge to America, but it might well turn out that the most consequential trend of the next decade will be the economic decline of Europe.

It's often noted that the European Union has a combined gross domestic product that is approximately the same as that of the United States. But the EU has 170 million more people. Its per capita GDP is 25 percent lower than that of the U.S. and, most important, that gap has been widening for 15 years. If present trends continue, the chief economist at the OECD argues, in 20 years the average U.S. citizen will be twice as rich as the average Frenchman or German. (Britain is an exception on most of these measures, lying somewhere between Continental Europe and the U.S.)...

....

Two Swedish researchers, Frederik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag, note in a monograph published last year that "40 percent of Swedish households would rank as low-income households in the U.S." In many European countries, the percentage would be even greater.


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[edit on 15-2-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]




posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:07 AM
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it's like 1929 again.
remember that economic crissis?
This time it's man made.
I wonder what kind of poverty striken world we're be living in...
seriously.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by Radekus
it's like 1929 again.
remember that economic crissis?
This time it's man made.
I wonder what kind of poverty striken world we're be living in...
seriously.

It was man-made in 1929 too.

It's not looking too rosy for America either.

Intresting article anyway, I bet the expensive socialist welfare states of European nations are also contributing largely to the problem in question.

[edit on 14/2/2006 by SwearBear]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:36 AM
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America is only so 'rich' because they lend huge ammounts of money from Europe and China. That bubble will collapse sooner or later.
Last few years a lot of poor countries joined the EU, most of them former soviet states, so it's not surprizing the EU GDP is lower than that of the US.

The personal savings rate of an American was negative in 2005 (-0,5%), which has not happened since the Great Depression. I would be more worried about that.

[edit on 2-14-2006 by Zion Mainframe]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 10:51 AM
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So much misinformation:

That “negative savings rate” story only counts money people have in bank accounts, not 401K funds, other stock funds or home equity. More than 50% of American households own some stocks. Heck I started my 401K fund ten years ago and it's worth almost $250K. Assuming an average return from the stock market, I'll have more than $2 million when I retire.

The reason why so many countries buy US treasury bonds is because the US economy is the most efficient and best performing. Despite oil shocks and multiple hurricanes last year, the US economy did > 3% growth and unemployment is 4.7%

The lesson you euros need to take from this story is that you’ve got to get off you’re rear ends, have more children, work harder, longer and dramatically scale back your stupid welfare programs.

If you punish productive behavior and reward unproductive behavior, which do you think you’ll get more of?







[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]

[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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Assuming an average return from the stock market, I'll have more than $2 million when I retire.

Sure, keep dreaming....

The real unemployment rate is much higher, around 8-9%.


Anyway, you Americans live to work, we work to live.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by Zion Mainframe


Anyway, you Americans live to work, we work to live.


"We work to live?" So you have to assume that Americans are a bunch of mindless labor force born to work like machines are built for labor and not to enjoy life? Don't you have job yourself so you can live in this world? Things are not free. What are you..a gentleman that can enjoy life without having to work a day in your life while still earning income...something thats like centuries ago?

[edit on 14-2-2006 by deltaboy]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 12:18 PM
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The cost for you Euros “working to live” is you’ve had to import a fifth column to support you lavish welfare state. Twenty years from now when American are twice as rich and you're living under sharia law, we see who’s happier.

My 401K went from nothing to nearly $250K in less than ten years. In the same period, my home when from $185K to over $500K; granted I have a BS in CS and Math and made a better than average salary, but steady, consistent investment will make almost anyone a millionaire by retirement in the US.

In the last century, the US stock market out performed every other equities market in the world. In fact had you invested in the Dow, the day BEFORE the 29 crash, ten years later your investment would have outperformed virtually any other investment


[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]

[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 12:19 PM
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[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
"We work to live?" So you have to assume that Americans are a bunch of mindless labor force born to work like machines are built for labor and not to enjoy life?

I didn't say that, now did I. Americans live to work, survey says

The US trade deficit is at an all time high, the only reason the economy doesn collapse is because a lot of that is invested back into American stock, the US economy is entrily dependent on that.



"Experts all around the world agree that these astronomical trade deficits are not sustainable and threaten to disrupt the US and global economies," Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid said. "This Administration has ignored the problem and continues to pursue a trade policy that puts special interests above the interests of American families."


So were not the only one having a 'fifth column' to support our country.
45 million Americans are uninsured...I'd rather live in a country with better social security!




but steady, consistent investment will make almost anyone a millionaire by retirement in the US.

OMG, you don't seriously believe that, dont you


So the value of your house increased, does that make you any richer? NO. That housing bubble is either going to burst, or cool down pretty soon.

[edit on 2-14-2006 by Zion Mainframe]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 12:55 PM
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Whatever, keep dreaming...

Good luck with these folks eruos...








posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 01:03 PM
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Funny last time I checked those where taken in nodnol (london) so I doubt they'll have much luck getting the euro in the good old UK of B and NI
yes that is the actual name.

BUT hey we all have our opinions and we're entitled to them, even if they seem very pro american and anti european but heh thats just me speaking



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 01:43 PM
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hi, well i'm from the UK and i must say i can't see why the AVERAGE citzen of america lives a 'BETTER' life than an AVERAGE citzen of great britain.

1) theres a HIGH poverty rate in some parts of america!!

2) in large parts your land is unstable (earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc), you can be working all your life and *Boom* everything is just wiped out in a matter of hours.

3) you don't have an health care system, if an american takes bad and needs a 'serious' operation that person could be then $THOUSANDS$ in-debt afterwards.

the UK has a NHS and its good for me to know that if i ever take bad i'll be straight in the hospital and have an operation 'FREE'. dental treatment is free.

4) our welfare system is better than yours, we offer 'unemployed people' greater benefts (to support them while they are out of work) and better schemes to get them back into work.

5) our education system is better than yours, college is 'FREE' university is 'FREE' but if you want to go to uni you can have a top up fee, in which you don't have to pay back until you are working and earning (and if you earn less than £10,000) you don't have to pay your fee back at all.

in america if your poor and you want an education - you basicly have just one option, 'THE MILITARY'.

6) in some US states your public service's are poor!! - i watched a documentry the other week (i forget which american state it was now),

but it was interviewing this 1 american police officer and he was saying how only 7 patrol cars are operating in just 1 state ALONE (and that state has grand total of just 27 police officers) - keeping law and order in the WHOLE of that state
thats quite shocking, (in size most american states are the size of most european countrys)!!
---

so (at the moment) no i don't think an average american lives any better than a average european citizen from an (established country)!!

the future - who can predict the future? you'll be a rich person if you can.



[edit on 14-2-2006 by st3ve_o]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 01:48 PM
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If you punish productive behavioUr and reward unproductive behavioUr, which do you think you’ll get more of?


Other than the spelling (sorry had to) I have not heard a better statement to sum up MY FEELINGS of Europe. Although I would love to say that where I live is the best place in the world, it does has some major problems.
The shear amount of people that I know on wealthfare, that are more than capable of doing some sort of work, "earn" more money than I do. What was the point of getting an engineering degree to be worse off than scum that have more children than any working man can afford?
And don't get me started on the muslims. Bradford is a dump and the rest of the country is heading the same way. Still Australia are crying out for engineers.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 02:19 PM
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So much to address:

Poverty in the US is middle class in a large part of the world. To be “poor” in the US means you are very likely to have:
A car
A color TV
A VCR
A frost fee refrigerator
A microwave oven
Central heat and AC
Cable TV

With regard to the notion of “free” college: NOTHING IS FREE. It is paid for by Europe’s confiscatory level of taxation on the few euros that bother to go to work. The smarter and more ambition come to America where their smarts and motivation are rewarded.

Given the historical (including the great depression) rate of return from the US stock market, if the average worker, making the average salary invested 10% throughout their Lifetime they would retire with nearly one million dollars.

Each year, more patents are applied for in America than in the European Union. America has almost three times as many Nobel prize-winners than the next country (Britain), and spends more on research and development than any other country. On one measure of academic performance, over 90 of the world's top 100 universities are in America.

Europe and America have also been diverging economically, though one should be cautious about that. In the seven years from 1995 to 2001, real GDP rose by 3.3% a year in America but by only 2.5% a year in the European Union. The bursting of the stockmarket bubble and the subsequent recession reversed this pattern—in 2001, GDP growth was higher in Europe than America—but the gap opened up again as the economies recovered. On current estimates and forecasts, growth in America in the three years to 2004 will average 1.3 percentage points a year more than in the 12-country euro area. Some 60% of the world's economic growth since 1995 has come from America.


[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]

[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 02:37 PM
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Is money all you think about?

The scholars bit, you might want to remember the size difference between the UK and the US in almost everything, the US is almost what 3 or 4 times the size of the UK?



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
Is money all you think about?



Only someone who never had to earn money would say something like that.

Our lives are finite. We expend a great portion of our lives in order to earn money. To take my money from me and give it to someone who didn’t earn it, is robbing me of my life and is immoral.

Money=freedom.

A good friend and I graduate from college together, I with a BS in CS and Math, he with a BS in business. I have my three bedroom house with a two car garage (lock-up) two cars (’01 Honda S2000, ’05 Civic Si) and a motorcycle (’00 CBR 600)

He moved to AZ and got married. He’s got a huge house right on the edge of the Tanto National Forrest (it’s a national park the size of Connecticut) two cars, a pickup, two quads and a giant RV.

He’s got more a bit more stuff, but I’ll retire sooner. That’s what happens when you keep your money, you can make choices.

You can keep you’re welfare state, I’ll keep my money. I guarantee I’ll be better off in the long run.

Others agree, that’s why they’ll brave 90 miles of the Atlantic ocean on inner tubes to get here, despite the fact they have “free” education and healthcare.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by ElTiante
Only someone who never had to earn money would say something like that.

Mate I earn £500 every month tax free, in 3 years to go up to 28k tax free. Dont talk to me about money.


Our lives are finite. We expend a great portion of our lives in order to earn money. To take my money from me and give it to someone who didn’t earn it, is robbing me of my life and is immoral.

Money=freedom.

Money= freedom? Please, if you want freedom you can go live in the woods and survive for the rest of your life there practically.


motorcycle (’00 CBR 600)

A CBR 600? Nice bike, my dad owned one.


He moved to AZ and got married. He’s got a huge house right on the edge of the Tanto National Forrest (it’s a national park the size of Connecticut) two cars, a pickup, two quads and a giant RV.

He’s got more a bit more stuff, but I’ll retire sooner. That’s what happens when you keep your money, you can make choices.
[/quoe]
Funny thing is, we do keep our money.
I know a guy who's 21 , earns over 28000 tax free every year for 3 months of work with 2 months off.
He keeps his money too but still lives in a welfare state.



You can keep you’re welfare state, I’ll keep my money. I guarantee I’ll be better off in the long run.

Others agree, that’s why they’ll brave 90 miles of the Atlantic ocean on inner tubes to get here, despite the fact they have “free” education and healthcare.

"Inner tubes"?
Well mate I dont care what you guarantee or what you say will happen, I dont respect you and therefore like most americans I dont respect I dont beleive a word you say.

Oh and BTW we do have FREE education and FREE healthcare, dont believe me fair enough I dont care.



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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external image

Cuban's leaving their "free" education and heathcare on innertubes.

[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]

[edit on 14-2-2006 by ElTiante]

mod edit: reduced image size to restore page format

[edit on 14-2-2006 by sanctum]


[edit on 14-2-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Feb, 14 2006 @ 03:17 PM
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Pity I am not a cuban, and pity a bunch of cubans leaving a dicatorship is not really an "Advertisement" to put to possible american citizns.




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