Abortion Pill

ok pretty much most of threads are US focused but just wondering how everyone feels about the Aussie developments with the anti abortion pill...

I have looked elsewhere and there doesn't seem to be a discussion..?

Abortion is a contentious issue but in all honesty I am very surprised to see the developments in the sentate...

Women and Senate winners as RU486 passes - Allison

Parliamentary Leader and Democrats Senator for Victoria, Lyn Allison, said
Australian women and their families are the winners of the Senate's vote
in favour of a private members' bill removing the Health Minister's veto
over the availability of abortion drug RU486. findlaw.com.au

It almost seems like its ok to take a pill rather than have an op....? I think it is the same thing..it is abortion whatever the stage....and however the method...

mod edit to use "ex" instead of "quote"
Quote Reference.
Posting work written by others. **ALL MEMBERS READ**








[edit on 14-2-2006 by sanctum]

[edit on 14-2-2006 by NJE777]

lol 'here ye' should be 'hear'?...ok well I want you to come here...not hear!

I was just reading some stuff and came across this, like oh wow!!

"[Abortion is] the dirty work of our field. The sad truth is that the people who moonlight at the clinics are grade-B doctors. They're not the cream of the crop."

now that is a statement.....

I'm confused as to how we will become a 'muslim nation' if we let in the pill. What's muslims got to do with our choice of not to have a child?

I think it's more of a non-issue really. Something for fundamentalists to squabble over, and the media to focus on, to distact us all from the real problems that are at hand (once again). In the end it should be the individual's personal choice shouldn't it? I dunno - what's your view on it?

well I dont think it is a non issue! We in the western world are already reeling from the statistical effects of legalised abortion...! You have to consider that the statistics actually show that the Muslim popn rate exceeds the western! And then you have academics interpreting this data suggesting that Muslim religion will surpass other religions globally. why is that??? abortion thats why...

The anglo-saxon race is dying out, I won't argue with you there. We have turned into fat and lazy convenience worshipping meat sacks. There isn't much conciousness on this backwards little planet anyway - regardless of race. Serves us right to be overrun by races who know that Australia is the best place to be...

I will admit I didn't really read the links, but was wondering if this was anything like the morning after pill or what. At what point do you take this pill to abort the fetus. While I don't really agree with "actual" abortion I feel everyone should have their own choice. I think this would probably be a better (safer) way to do it then the routine abortion (again I am just hypothesizing on the sound of it, I don't actually know anything about it).

Better to abort the fetus then to allow another child to come into this world unwanted and uncared for to be mistreated, neglected, or abused by parents who don't want it. Just my opinion on it.

A couple of RU-486 reference links.

www.ru486.org...

www.nrlc.org...

Originally posted by NJE777
And then you have academics interpreting this data suggesting that Muslim religion will surpass other religions globally. why is that??? abortion thats why...

Why is that? Globally.. western women have got better access to sex education, contraception and our culture is more accepting of women utilising these resources. Less babies does not mean more abortions.. the whole idea that more white women have abortions is illogical. I think MP Danna Vale was trying to hitch a ride on the anti-muslim bandwagon, funny that I've never heared her say anything before..

I guess global warming is the fault of muslims too. Hang on, oil.. petrol companies.. wow I might be onto something here!

[edit on 14-2-2006 by riley]

Thanks for the links sanctum

This is just plain nasty!

Though no long term studies have yet been done, the descriptions women give of their encounters with their aborted children raise great concern. Women who have undergone RU486/PG abortions talk about seeing tiny fists, eyes, or seeing their aborted babies laying in the toilet bowl or swirling in the shower drain. (61) Counselors at abortion clinics indicate it is common for women to express a desire to bury the baby, to perform some sort of ceremony to deal with their strong feelings. (62) These are hardly the reactions of women who consider this a blob of tissue. (63) source

ew!! moving on ->

My concern with the developments with RU 486 in AU is due to the fact that at Federation in 1901, abortion remained governed by the British Offences Against the Person Act of 1861. The Act made abortion illegal under any circumstances. Since then, however, abortion law has remained subject to case law and legislation in each of the states...at a Federal level the issue of abortion has never been ethically addressed. Now, here we have our Govt at a National level endorsing abortion by lifting the ban on RU 486 in AU.

The statistics on abortion are alarming...if we listen to Tony Abbott

Mr Abbott has previously said that 100 000 abortions take place in Australia each year (though he has also acknowledged that the absence of reliable statistics makes this figure difficult to quantify with accuracy)Research Brief no. 9 2004–05

In providing an overview of the data on abortion in Australia which is currently available, this Research Brief has demonstrated how vexed this question is. Each of the three major publicly available data sources on abortion—Medicare data, hospital data and South Australian data—can be used to estimate, in fairly crude terms, the incidence of abortion. However, none of these, either singularly or in combination, can be used to quantify accurately the number of abortions which take place in Australia each year.Research Brief no. 9 2004–05

From this we can estimate AU abortion figures somewhere between 60,000 and 90,000... now I am pro abortion It is for the woman to decide but, how many women rely on abortions as a form of contraception? I have met women who have had 3 or 4 terminations! Like farout...

It was interesting to read the risks associated with RU 486 and the comparative assessment of chemical/surgical abortions...

Both chemical and surgical abortions have their risks, and it is not clear that they are directly comparable.

Promoters of the abortion pill often speak as if RU486/PG abortions are safer because they are earlier abortions. (52) While it is true that earlier surgical abortions are safer than later surgical abortions, (53) owing to the increasing size of the baby and the increasing complexity of the surgical procedure, (54) it isn't clear that early chemical abortions are necessarily safer than later surgical abortions. Because the methods are so different, this is like comparing apples and oranges.

With surgical abortions, a woman faces the risks of cervical lacerations, (55) uterine or bowel perforations, (56) scarring, infection, and even permanent infertility. (57) These risks, due to the surgical process itself, may be avoided in a chemical abortion (provided a woman is not in that 8%-23% for whom the method fails (58)). But the woman undergoing a chemical abortion faces a whole new set of risks, ranging from hemorrhage (59) to heart failure, (60) typically not faced by the surgical patient.

Variations in the severity and frequency of these complications make it difficult to identify one method as safer than another. Significant injury or worse is possible with either method.Are chemical abortions safer than surgical abortions?

The Govt in my opinion needs to focus on personal responsibility... not irresponsibility.

mod edit: formatting

[edit on 15-2-2006 by sanctum]

Originally posted by NJE777

..
And then you have academics interpreting this data suggesting that Muslim religion will surpass other religions globally. why is that??? abortion thats why...

So, you'd rather force women into bearing and raising children they don't want?

Are you sure that the latest population loss scare isn't more than nationalistic reflex and worshipping of statistcs? i mean we all know that overall power is primarily derived from resources, not masses of people, don't we? therefore, i'll have to openly tell you that, all else being equal, fewer people mean more wealth per individual....


Of course, that doesn't make abortion right, and it's something that should be reserved for rape victims and life-threatening condition, but your reasoning is off, imho, of course, which doesn't mean much really, it remains a personal decision in a free society.

Do you believe a population has to keep growing at all times? time will tell, wether these much dreaded muslim countris with their breeding slaves are really that much of a threat without corrupt politicians using them for inflitration.

Originally posted by Long Lance
So, you'd rather force women into bearing and raising children they don't want?

Did I say that???? Did you read the above thread???

What I am saying is quite simply, lifting of the RU 486 ban has long term consequences and it focuses on irresponsibility rather than personal responsibility. What happened to contraception? In this day and age, isn't there enough education out there? We have the morning after pill available over the counter without a prescription; abortions are covered by medicare, surely that is enough? RU 486 just makes it even easier.

I repeat I am pro abortion

but your reasoning is off

and what reasoning is that?? I think you have missed the point.

Do you believe a population has to keep growing at all times? time will tell, wether these much dreaded muslim countris with their breeding slaves are really that much of a threat without corrupt politicians using them for inflitration.

Don't put words in my mouth! 'dreaded muslim countris' is your opinion, not mine.

Are you sure that the latest population loss scare isn't more than nationalistic reflex and worshipping of statistcs? i mean we all know that overall power is primarily derived from resources, not masses of people, don't we? therefore, i'll have to openly tell you that, all else being equal, fewer people mean more wealth per individual....

that is one possible theory, I am not sure of anything However, in Australia we have an aging popn... Policy Implications of the Ageing of Australia's Population Conference

Children are projected to make up a smaller proportion of Australia’s population over the coming decades, while the population aged 65 years and over is projected to increase.

The ageing of the population is one of the major transformations being experienced by Australia’s population and is a current focus for both economic and social policy. Much of the discussion around population ageing focuses on issues associated with an increasing proportion of older people; for example, expenditure associated with income support, the provision of health and disability services, and family and community care. However, as population ageing also relates to the declining proportions of younger people in the population, it has implications for all sectors of the community and policies related to all stages of the lifespan Scenarios for Australia's aging population

Why? Because Australia's population is not growing at the rate required to maintain a healthy economic climate, and without policy change it will begin to decline in about 25 years.

The country is also facing the major problem of an ageing and retiring population. This places further pressures on government in terms of superannuation policies, altering the labour market and raising retirement ages.Australia faces problem of aging population

Australia has a 1.2% popn growth rate...
Population growth rate




[edit on 16-2-2006 by NJE777]

[edit on 16-2-2006 by NJE777]

in Australia we have an aging popn

This is global, not specific to Australia.

quote: Do you believe a population has to keep growing at all times? time will tell, wether these much dreaded muslim countris with their breeding slaves are really that much of a threat without corrupt politicians using them for inflitration.


Don't put words in my mouth! 'dreaded muslim countris' is your opinion, not mine.

You originally brought muslims up here:

ou have to consider that the statistics actually show that the Muslim popn rate exceeds the western! And then you have academics interpreting this data suggesting that Muslim religion will surpass other religions globally. why is that??? abortion thats why...

You don't provide any stats, you just make a blanket statement that all muslims are anti-abortion and that the increase in population of the muslim religion is due soley to their religion. China's population is booming, and they aren't muslim. Neither is India. Fuzzy logic.

~MFP

So many problems stemming from the fact that relationships take a back seat to the all-mighty orgasm. "Getting laid" has replaced "falling in love." It might as well be plastered on billboards, "Folks have sex and don't worry. No need for commitments, no strigs attatched. If you don't want the baby, we can just destroy it." Do you think abortion is something that a woman looks back and was proud of doing? "Boy, I'm glad I did that. My life is so much better now that I didn't have that baby."

That feeling of seeing hands and feet swirling in a toilet. It's called guilt folks. Guilt comes after a commitment of a wrong act. And whatever this nonsense that the counselor mentioned about wanting to burry the baby. Utter non-sesnse, and a really twisted view of what is really going on emotionally.

It's guilt, it's emotion. That's what it really is.

I'm not saying I would like to see a child abused by someone who doesn't love them, but I am saying, the morals of some people are just going right down the toilet. And it's all justified because it's my "freedom of choice."

We keep letting society lower itself, and their won't be a society to have "freedom of choice" in.

Troy

[edit on 16-2-2006 by cybertroy]

Originally posted by NJE777
This is just plain nasty!

Though no long term studies have yet been done, the descriptions women give of their encounters with their aborted children raise great concern. Women who have undergone RU486/PG abortions talk about seeing tiny fists, eyes, or seeing their aborted babies laying in the toilet bowl or swirling in the shower drain. (61) Counselors at abortion clinics indicate it is common for women to express a desire to bury the baby, to perform some sort of ceremony to deal with their strong feelings. (62) These are hardly the reactions of women who consider this a blob of tissue. (63) source

that page is on the Narional Right to Life website. it is very misleading.

this debate shouldnt be about pro/anti abortion.
abortion is already legal, this should only be about the methods used. therefore I wouldnt refer to a source that is anti-abortion.

Originally posted by bsl4doc

in Australia we have an aging popn

This is global, not specific to Australia.

I don't care bsl

I don't care bsl

I don't care bsl

...my thread relates to RU 486 and Australia... ok??

much dreaded muslim countris with their breeding slaves

Don't put words in my mouth! 'dreaded muslim countris' is your opinion, not mine.

You originally brought muslims up here

Yes I did...but, I did not attach any negatives to Muslims... such as 'dreaded Muslims'...that is the point I was referring to.

You don't provide any stats, you just make a blanket statement that all muslims are anti-abortion and that the increase in population of the muslim religion is due soley to their religion.

I didn't say "all muslims are anti-abortion"!

I refer to the common debate

Statistics shows that islam is the second largest religion in the World. With around 1.3 billion muslims..
although islam is the second largest religion in the world, It is also the fastest Growing religion in the world.
Statistics show that islam will be the largest religion in the World. Overtaking christianity In the near futureContinued

The point I was making is that abortion and RU 486 have long term consequences and I don't feel abortion or RU 486 is a non event. I did not include stats because I believed this is a common debate and just about every Tom, Dick and Harry is aware of it... I included it to illustrate how far reaching and broad the consequences are. Obviously you haven't heard of this debate before and now you attack me for a blanket statement?..whatever, it is a common discussion over here.

I will not be getting into an argument with you bsl...been there done that. If you want to come into my thread and attack it without contributing to the RU 486/Australia debate then by all means do so but I will not respond to you. Go and have an argument with someone else.

You have already insulted me and other Australians previously...so now, it is 'fuzzy logic!'...well at least you didn't insult me as an Australian again by referring to my logic with that of an Australian animal?




[edit on 17-2-2006 by NJE777]

Originally posted by feebus

that page is on the Narional Right to Life website. it is very misleading.

thanks, I didn't notice that... I got it from the links provided in the thread earlier. I will have another look.

I was very impressed with this article

Abortion Law, History & Religion

in particular info about Sweden:

Sex education has been a compulsory subject in schools in Sweden since 1956, and today Swedish adolescents who are sexually active have a high rate of contraceptive use and a low number of abortions. continued

The focus on prevention rather than cure, education in Sweden is getting desired results with a low number of abortions...I am not sure though how accurate and up to date the article is but very interesting reading about abortion and how it relates in other countries...

Originally posted by NJE777

Originally posted by Long Lance
So, you'd rather force women into bearing and raising children they don't want?

Did I say that???? Did you read the above thread???

..

but your reasoning is off

and what reasoning is that?? I think you have missed the point.
..

I understand your reasoning as follows...

From the facts, that Muslim (you introduced them) populations are steadily growing while Western aren't, and taking into account their respective societal traits wrt reproduction (do i need to delve into this and am i going to be branded a racist?), you assert that restricting cheap, readily available abortion would increase Western birth rates,

is that correct so far?

The key question now remains: where's the statistical difference between a child not conceived or aborted at the age of 1 day?

You see, there is none. that's why bringing up birth rates was essentially a big no-no in this discussion, your only leg to stand on would be the implications of terminating life without need.

An increased birth rate would have to be the result of undesired pregnancies, since, ideally, people would be knowledgable enough to take the necessary precautions IN TIME. assuming more births in this case is akin to relying on people's mistakes, and not that far off the middle eastern 'ideal of enforced reproduction', or whatever you call forced marriages.


PS: 'dreaded' as in 'feared' is not dreogatory per se, it may be negative, but i'm not on prozac so i can actually grasp the concept, sorry if this offends anyone, though.

===========

Originally posted by cybertroy
..
It's guilt, it's emotion. That's what it really is.

I'm not saying I would like to see a child abused by someone who doesn't love them, but I am saying, the morals of some people are just going right down the toilet. And it's all justified because it's my "freedom of choice."

We keep letting society lower itself, and their won't be a society to have "freedom of choice" in.

Troy
..

You're right of course, the entire mentality is bogus, but restrictions of any sort are not going to change that, in fact they are most likely going to make everything worse. i understand you see freedom of choice abused, although that's obviously part of the whole deal, detrimental as it is, i cannot think of an alternative, can you?

[edit on 17-2-2006 by Long Lance]

From the facts, that Muslim (you introduced them) populations are steadily growing while Western aren't

well yes, that is the general consensus..in AU anyway...yanno when you go out to dinner, topic of conversation..

and taking into account their respective societal traits wrt reproduction (do i need to delve into this and am i going to be branded a racist?), you assert that restricting cheap, readily available abortion would increase Western birth rates

Will RU 486 be cheaper? and more importantly, will it be a better method?? I am not asserting anything specifically, I am merely surprised by the contradictive stance of the Govt in AU...two years ago the Govt initiated a 3,000 dollar payment to families upon the birth of a child...they seem to be so desperate to encourage people to have children. It was a strategy to address the looming aging popn crisis. That is the contradiction! That is my surprise! Now they are lifting the ban on RU486, just seems to go against their previous assertions...initiatives

The key question now remains: where's the statistical difference between a child not conceived or aborted at the age of 1 day?

That would be a critical factor; unfortunately, I havent been able to source accurate statistics...but if we look at estimates as I posted b4..there maybe somewhere between 60,000 and 90,000 increase in birth rate. Now I realise that is a hypothetical...that estimate doesn't take into consideration infant mortality rates...but 60,000 to 90,000 births would make a significant difference in the popn growth rate of AU.

You see, there is none. that's why bringing up birth rates was essentially a big no-no in this discussion, your only leg to stand on would be the implications of terminating life without need.

Well, I am sorry, but I disagree here, for the estimates I have hypothetically illustrated above

PS: 'dreaded' as in 'feared' is not dreogatory per se, it may be negative, but i'm not on prozac so i can actually grasp the concept, sorry if this offends anyone, though.

That isn't my interpretation of 'dreaded'; I took it as negative and quickly jumped on it... for the sake of reaffirming my original point...

cheers
Nat