Is there any use for I.D cards?

It looks like this malarky has passed somehow. Will it make Britain a more safer place? Or will it be possibly an invasion of privacy?

news.bbc.co.uk...

Here's a link to the story.

Police: Mr Terrorist, can I have your I.D. card before you go blow up on a tube?
Terrorist: Why yes, yes you can.
Police: Yes, you have your documents you may go on.
Terrorist: Thank you.

30 seconds later, they kill lots of people.

No, no, no. No positive benefit for the people. It's a feel-good solution that gives the government more power to intrude into citizen lives and that is wrong.

More information on card means more chance of identity theft when it's stolen. More information on card means more information the government doesn't need to know being stored in a database somewhere. And what's that going to do? I mean, seriously. So terrorists get the ID card too. It just builds a false sense of security and makes a greater risk because we think everyone with the cards is checked out and okay.

I've heard that they might cost a bit of money. :/ From £30 to £300. To be honest, why should I get it? Is there any case for getting such a document that is vulnerable to identity theft?

Checking out the BBC article on the subject I found a little poll going on, so naturally I clicked the ''no'' to ID cards and got to see the results, which currently stand at:

Yes 25.07%
No 74.93%

26513 Votes Cast

So thats three out of every four people who believe ID cards won't make the UK safer.

Now here's one bit that really really annoys me:

Government staves off ID rebels
MPs also voted to force people to get cards when they apply for passports.

-scrolling down the linked article-

MPs backed plans to put people applying for passports from 2008 on the ID cards register.

So basically if you want to leave the country you'll be needing to get a ID card, or it could be seen as your a prisoner in your own country unless you go on the ''list''.

Mr Alistair Carmichael of the Lib Dems puts it well:

MPs reject ID card costings call
''The only way in which people will be able to opt out of the system is by giving up their right to travel abroad''

Government staves off ID rebels
Home Secretary Charles Clarke had said a stand-alone ID card would cost £30, while one linked to a passport would cost £93.

But that figure has been disputed, most notably by a London School of Economics (LSE) report estimating the cards could cost up to £300 each.

Now lets be fair the Government knows zippo about correctly working out the cost of such things (do you really need me to list them ), and I think a place such as the London School of Economics is more likely to get it right.
The Government is bound to underestimate the cost so they can win over the people who oppose it on a cost basis, so with taxes creeping higher you've get the nice added bonus of forking out £300 as well, and who knows how often these cards need to be renewed!


But theres still hope...

Government staves off ID rebels
ID card plans will now go back before the House of Lords.

Lets hope the unelected Lords back the ''will'' of the people and continue to oppose the cards, just think its a sad day when unelected politicians better represent the people than the elected politicians.

MPs reject ID card costings call
MPs have voted against making the government carry out a report on costs before introducing identity cards.

Not forcing the Government to properly cost the project before they introduce the cards smacks of stupidy. So by the time we've physically seen the true cost, the entire project with be gathering steam with no hope of reversal.

I think it a sad day when politicians impose a concept such as ID cards upon the public, when the very idea has so much opposition to it and opposition to the scheme with damn good reason.
Will it help stop terrorism...no
Could the money be better ''used'' to combat fraud...yes
Would it be better spent on 70,000 (number I've seen thrown around in the media) more police..yes

Far be it from me to interrupt this anti-ID card agreement.

I just wanted to point out that there are contrary opinions about this; cos it seems few are prepared to give them the time of day.

It's true there are some criticisms (as seen here) but sadly (as is so often the case) almost no regard is given for the fact that many hold an opposing view just as strongly and with good reason.

Characterising things with a silly criminal/cop 'may I see you ID card' comedy routine is hardly accurate.

They might not stop a crime being committed but they may very well make detecting and solving who was involved and how it happened thanks to the trail ID card use will inevitably lay.
This may very well lead to criminal and/or terrorist conspiracies being smashed - just as the trail from mobile phones has done in the past.

Carry on with the simplistic '1984' version if you like and ignore the other side(s) to this - because there are several.
You try having your ID stolen and see just how awful a decent ID system might be......and when private business gets around to pressurising and eventually insisting on us having them what then?

As for cost?
My understanding is that they will cost around the price of a driving licence and passport combined.
As I have and need both (like most) I don't see cost as an issue.

One last point -

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Lets hope the unelected Lords back the ''will'' of the people and continue to oppose the cards, just think its a sad day when unelected politicians better represent the people than the elected politicians.

- Wizard, what are you talking about!?

The ID card scheme was a major part of the manifesto the Labour party were returned to government on.
The HOL have no right whatsoever to block a clear and major manifesto commitment.

The "sad day" is actually when otherwise informed and educated people allow their own personal political prejudices to delude them that mere opinion polls have more substance than the actual results of a general election held in this country only last May!

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The ID card scheme was a major part of the manifesto the Labour party were returned to government on.
The HOL have no right whatsoever to block a clear and major manifesto commitment.

So everyone who voted Labour wanted ID cards? No, true its a childish thing for me to say but it has truth behind it.
Its a simple fact, truthfully its impossible to back up without national referenda, but it is of my understanding and opinion that more people oppose ID cards than support them.

If Labour automatically got everything passed in their manifesto that would constitute a form of democratically elected (un-opposed) dictatorship, and I believe we can agree that is not what we live in.
The simple fact of the matter is that each ruling party in power should be opposed when their actions are viewed to be harmful or in opposition to the public.

People didn't want war with Iraq, but the Government put their hands over their ears humming ''I can't hear you'', and their doing the same now with the ID card issue.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The "sad day" is actually when otherwise informed and educated people allow their own personal political prejudices to delude them that mere opinion polls have more substance than the actual results of a general election held in this country only last May!

Political prejudices? Just because I don't like the current Labour party doesn't mean I'm against ID cards for the simple fact the Labour party support it.
I disagree with ID cards for the reason the money could be better spent on methods that would make a more positive effect on combating things such as fraud, crime and terrorism. Also for the reason I'd be forced to get one if I wanted to leave the country and the cost, which could be as high as £300 for each ID card, plus the cost of setting up and maintaining such a potentially disastrous idea.

Well, do I still have to get one if I am not going out of the country?

The idea of Id cards is a good one but i personally think introducing them will be a problem, do we really have the tech to nail this down? Are retinal scans infalible? Also the cost implication for some people would be too much. How many people unemployed or on low income could afford one? Does that mean they dont have to get one? Will children be required to have them? like passports!

I just think this is being rushed into. But i do agree that some form is required in todays world.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
If Labour automatically got everything passed in their manifesto that would constitute a form of democratically elected (un-opposed) dictatorship, and I believe we can agree that is not what we live in.

- My point was not about everything in a manifesto simply being passed because a government gets elected in.

My point was the comparison between a comparatively piddly little opinion poll verses the national general election as a demonstration of public mood.

You can, if you like, take the trotskyist line and complain that you have not approved every policy in the manifesto and therefore fell no need to acknowledge their legitimacy but that is a strange way around to look at this.
The more credible manner in which to see it is the true way people actually look at it.
People weigh a manifesto up in terms of what they find they can support verses what they find objectionable and how serious that objection is.

Therefore if ID cards are such a horrible and 'point of principle' thing to you you would not have or could not have brought yourself to vote Labour at the last election.

The election does indeed confer legitimacy to the governments program.
How else could such complex matters be practically done?

People may debate and amend those measures but the unelected HOL have no in-built 'right' to block the measures of the duly elected government when they are central and important parts of the manifesto program.

People didn't want war with Iraq, but the Government put their hands over their ears humming ''I can't hear you'', and their doing the same now with the ID card issue.

- Whilst I'll agree there was and is still large opposition to the war in Iraq you cannot simply say "people" like that as if there was or is a majority against the British involvement.

Political prejudices? Just because I don't like the current Labour party doesn't mean I'm against ID cards for the simple fact the Labour party support it.

- I think your prejudice is showing where you would excuse or support the blatantly anti-democratic moves by the HOL.

I disagree with ID cards for the reason the money could be better spent on methods that would make a more positive effect on combating things such as fraud, crime and terrorism.

- Fine, of course you are free to hold that view.
All I've said here is consider there is an equally valid counter-view held by many (and I wouldn't make sweeping generalities about 'majority' support if I were you. It's amazing; all this 'majority support' against Labour and yet they still win general elections......perhaps that 'support' isn't quite the strong feeling some want to imply, hmmmm?
Not that a little poll will ever tell you too much in how people prioritise these things when it comes to it, right? ).

Also for the reason I'd be forced to get one if I wanted to leave the country and the cost, which could be as high as £300 for each ID card, plus the cost of setting up and maintaining such a potentially disastrous idea.

- ....and what? You need a passport for almost everywhere right now.

Throwing out figure from thin air as to cost really isn't much of a solid basis to complain about though.
Like I said the estimated figures I have seen (and posted here previously) indicate the cost would be about the same as for a passport and driving licence.
If true and as the card is apparently set to be capable of being both, what is the big deal on cost?



[edit on 15-2-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

We'll see if this I.D card scheme is worth it's salt. It looks like it could be quite dear. I remember when they built that Millenium Dome. I think everyone can remember that. They are pushing this I.D card thing through really really quickly. They are pushing legislation through really quickly. I am quite worried. What is glorifying terroism? It sounds quite a loose thing to pin on someone.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
My point was the comparison between a comparatively piddly little opinion poll verses the national general election as a demonstration of public mood.

But general elections aren't for single issues are they, Labours victory despite the Iraq war showed us that.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Therefore if ID cards are such a horrible and 'point of principle' thing to you you would not have or could not have brought yourself to vote Labour at the last election.

I would have (although couldn’t vote last election) voted for the candidate rather than the political party they represent, I don’t believe I could ever see myself voting on a single issue, but that doesn’t stop me complaining about the issues/policy I don't agree with.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
People may debate and amend those measures but the unelected HOL have no in-built 'right' to block the measures of the duly elected government when they are central and important parts of the manifesto program.

Funny, I don't remember Labour campaigning with ID cards being a ''central and important part of their manifesto''.

- I think your prejudice is showing where you would excuse or support the blatantly anti-democratic moves by the HOL.

What?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
It's amazing; all this 'majority support' against Labour and yet they still win general elections......perhaps that 'support' isn't quite the strong feeling some want to imply, hmmmm?

The only way to accurately gauge a single issue is to hold a referenda on the issue but that'd mean a significant change in British politics. Until the time that referenda are used we'll have to (sadly) rely on opinion policys and on how loud the public can shout.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
If true and as the card is apparently set to be capable of being both, what is the big deal on cost?

Thats not something I've heard before, to my knowledge (and I'm more than welcome to be enlightened) the ID card would be along side the passport and drivers licence.
If all three were integrated then the cost would be much more justified, however I'm still sceptical of the need for an ID card and believe that the money could be spent better.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
But general elections aren't for single issues are they, Labours victory despite the Iraq war showed us that.

- To a large degree that would depend on the single issue concerned, no?

If ID cards are the enormous threat to personal liberty you seem to wish to claim then surely if the majority felt that strongly (again as you seem to claim) then on that point alone they could/would not re-elect the Labour government if (reintroducing ID cards) were it's clear and unambiguous intentions.

I would have (although couldn’t vote last election) voted for the candidate rather than the political party they represent

- That's a laudable objective, however there is rather a lot of evidence pointing to the opposite being true for many.
People mainly vote for parties.

Funny, I don't remember Labour campaigning with ID cards being a ''central and important part of their manifesto''.

- Then your memory is faulty.

Technology projects including ID cards and plans to close the digital divide feature prominently in the Labour Party's election manifesto, released today.....

.....Big IT projects include a new electronic borders system, to be introduced over the next five years, which will track visitors entering or leaving the UK, and plans to introduce ID cards, including biometric data such as fingerprints, backed up by a national register.

management.silicon.com...

What?

- For the unelected HOL to continue oppose the HOC over such a clear and central part of the duly elected government's program of government is inherently undemocratic.

I am suggesting a degree of person prejudice is stopping you seeing this.

OK, you personally aren't in favour of ID cards but do you think the HOL's behaviour acceptable?!

The only way to accurately gauge a single issue is to hold a referendum on the issue but that'd mean a significant change in British politics.

- It would also never stop and render our representitive democracy down to nothing more than 'delegates' vox-popping in the hope of gaining favour with a public.

The level of expertise or informed debate would plummet.

But superficially it seems attractive.......like I said the standard tactic and approach of the trotskyists.

Until the time that referendum are used we'll have to (sadly) rely on opinion policys and on how loud the public can shout.

- Protest always has it's place but if you imagine us using referenda to revisit or mould a program for government think again.

Which party do you ever imagine adopting this and finding it practical or workable?

Thats not something I've heard before, to my knowledge (and I'm more than welcome to be enlightened) the ID card would be along side the passport and drivers licence.

- It has been talked about at length.

THE CARD

The opportunity for using a single card that is a passport, driving licence and entitlement card could prove to be an economic and viable solution. Most UK citizens have a passport, driving licence or both. All new driving licences are available as a card (with associated documentation) and as future passports are also expected to be cards, also, it is an logical progression to develop one card for all uses.

www.publications.parliament.uk...

If all three were integrated then the cost would be much more justified, however I'm still sceptical of the need for an ID card and believe that the money could be spent better.

- Like I said I have seen proposals that proposal is that it would be around the same price as a driving licence and a passport.

You'll find reference to that and that we went over some of this here -
politics.abovetopsecret.com...