Why ride on top of apc's?

I've been looking on some pics from Chechnya(sp?) and noticed that in if not all then most of the pics with BTR 80s and BMP's, people seem to ride on top of it instead of in it. Considering that the carriers are supposed to be protection against small arms and shrapnel I'm curious as to why?
Any russians on this board with experiences?

If it's a good tactic for city fighting how come we don't see it in Iraq?


BTR80



Bmp2

Link to the site with more pics

Russian vehicles are light, mobile, cheap and have good weapons, but their common disadvantage is lack of internal space. For example their tank crews needs to be very small,and even then they're quite squeezed inside. The same can be said about BMP and such vehicles. It's almost impossible to fight after longer ride in BMP. even if they are inside they need to have open hatches. Bradley has more internal space, not to mention Stryker, but they are higher.

A) There is no room inside because there are already soldiers inside occupying the interior positions.

B) They are only moving a short distance, so its more convenient to just hop on the outside.

C) If the APC is attacked with an RPG, the soldiers are in a much better position to quickly dismount, move away from the vehicle, and counter-fire the RPG team.

Originally posted by Pyros
A) There is no room inside because there are already soldiers inside occupying the interior positions.

B) They are only moving a short distance, so its more convenient to just hop on the outside.

C) If the APC is attacked with an RPG, the soldiers are in a much better position to quickly dismount, move away from the vehicle, and counter-fire the RPG team.

I considered these options too but seeing so many pics with the men on top I felt there needed to be another reason.
If IED's are as common there as in Iraq surely it must be better to be inside with at least some armour as protection against shrapnel and snipers?
As for the space option I can imagine it's not very roomy but we use the BMP2's in sweden too and although we're not small as the asian-russians and other drivers we still stay on the inside..

Reason is Landmines
If you are inside an APC (BTR-80) a mine explosion can do two things
a)penetrate the hull - causing the blast to kill everyone inside
b)Blast off a wheel - Causing the APC to jump and rock violently injuring/killing everyone inside (usually troops break their necks while hitting the roof of the vehicle

When you ride on top of the vehicle the explosion throws you off the vehicle and most likely all you get is some bruises or broken bones and a concussion.

BMP-series have Fuel tanks at the rear doors, so being inside that vehicle is not advised if you have 360 degree threath like in the second pictures urban battlefield, but commonly troops do ride inside the BMPs and on the roof of BTRs

This is just info our EOD engineers told us at mine awareness training...

AS for irag, the insurgents don't seem to be using AT-mines, especially track-mines

[edit on 13-2-2006 by northwolf]

Originally posted by northwolf
AS for irag, the insurgents don't seem to be using AT-mines, especially track-mines

Fortunately, they aint using alot of them. Prefer to use remote detonate bombs.

Originally posted by northwolf
Reason is Landmines
If you are inside an APC (BTR-80) a mine explosion can do two things
a)penetrate the hull - causing the blast to kill everyone inside
b)Blast off a wheel - Causing the APC to jump and rock violently injuring/killing everyone inside (usually troops break their necks while hitting the roof of the vehicle

Good explanation. Same was common in Vietnam and with the M113.

[edit on 13/2/2006 by Lonestar24]

I remember downloading a video of a russian convoy travelling up a road and either a mine or a remotely detonanted bomb/mine went off. The resulting explosion destroyed the bmp and everyone in it. At least by riding on top they stand a better chance of surviving although not much. Apc's are classified as "battle Taxis's" The newer models have a decent fighting ability but they are lightly skinned and not meant to take on serious fights, where large calibre or anti tank weapons will be used. They are great at protecting against assult rifles and shell fragments but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a tank shot or serious anti tank weapons.

But I assumed the guys were topside because they had only infrequent contact with hostiles.

Compare it with a non-combat situation. Picking up golf balls on a golf course from an electric golf cart.

Where the balls are thickest, you get off the car and work on foot.

If there's footwork only rarely, you just ride along and jump off when you come to a spot of work.

I figured it meant fatique was more of a risk that been wounded was.



Maybe mostly attacks from mines and Anti-tank weapons, and not from rifle fire?

.

The mine threat is the reason russians gave to our engineers when they inquired it from them while studying effects of antivehicle mines.... and the 2 leutnants spent 6 months going through different cases of mine/vehicle/countermeasure combos from all over the world

Well from Ockam's Razor I would say the simple answer is

-it beats walking

You can see this behavior all the way back to WW2 atleast. Soldiers hitching rides on Tanks and such. Infantrymen often would give their legs a rest and hitch a ride on a passing Sherman Tank or whatever was going by.

Or are you just happy to see me?



Couldn't resist!

Thanks for the replys. But are there really no russians who have been in chechnya at these forums?




Russian version of canary bird trick..

It's already been mentioned, but the main reason is mines. There were (and still are) loads of mines floating around Chechnya. The empty troop compartmant of the APC acts as a very effective barrier to shrapnel from an anti-tank mine that blows under your vehicle.

From footage I've seen of yank troops in Vietnam, the result when a mine goes off under the vehicle when everyone is sitting on top of it is really quite funny to watch. Not so funny if you're the one on top of the carrier, but there you go.

I guess if you hit a bomb your dead anyways. In the Iraq footage of vehicles getting blown up people usually get ejected and blown up. It is porbably worse for the people inside maybe. Like getting slammed into the top of the vehicle.

I would still want the protection against snipers though, even if I did die if I hit an IED. And maybe the IED will be far enough away where the blast and shrapnel would be mitigated by the armor.

So I never understood why people drive with their heads sticking out or manning a machine gun totally exposed.

Humans don't make sense usually so that is a possible explanation.

[edit on 18-2-2006 by ImplementOfWar]

Originally posted by ImplementOfWar
I guess if you hit a bomb your dead anyways. In the Iraq footage of vehicles getting blown up people usually get ejected and blown up. It is porbably worse for the people inside maybe. Like getting slammed into the top of the vehicle.

I would still want the protection against snipers though, even if I did die if I hit an IED. And maybe the IED will be far enough away where the blast and shrapnel would be mitigated by the armor.

So I never understood why people drive with their heads sticking out or manning a machine gun totally exposed.

Humans don't make sense usually so that is a possible explanation.

[edit on 18-2-2006 by ImplementOfWar]

Actually, most of the IED casualties coming out of Iraq at the moment are on top cover when they are injured. The blokes inside are usually just shaken (but not stirred!).

Tankies etc ride with their heads out because the visibility from the hull down position is quite rubbish and the heat can be a bit rough, so the drivers and commanders sit with their heads out to let some air circulate around them and their vehicles and to improve all-round visibility. This is very important when one of the best ways to save your vehicle from an IED is to see it before you hit it!

Drinkin' some wine, eatin' some cheese, catchin' some rays...

WOOOF, WOOOF, WOOOOF-WOOOOOF!

My other Dog Immitation.


KPl.