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Kenya Angry about Dog Food Offer

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posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
If Dog Food is SO GREAT and Tasty and Lovely - why don't you people Feed it to your Children? Why do you buy the Juicy Beef and Pork and Nice Green, Yellow and Red Vegetables? You think the people who Starve do not want to Eat that - but just the Leftovers?

Hey, I bet the company that makes Whiskas has some Cat Food Leftovers! And you think we could send them some of those Bird Seeds - I heard they are quite Tasty and full of Minerals and Vitamins!

You are so Proud now, that this Particular Company has given Dog Food to the people who Starve - while 50% of grown Food is thrown away.

Yeah, really Cool.

Reminds me of the Apocalyptic days of Mad Max II: the Road Warrior, where Mister Mad Max eats Cans of Dog food, and throwns whats left to his Dog.

This is about the Same - only Scales are Bigger.

Yes it will Save Lives, but Lives could be Saved in Numerous different Way, if WANTED to - there is just no Wish to do that, 'coz nobody cares.

Just Good to know, the Kindness of Strangers.




JUMPING JESUS CHRIST, Souljah. I'm Sorry that my minimum wage job allows me to buy actual food. I'm sorry that these people are overpopulating BARREN DESERT AREAS.

EXCUSE THE (*@#$ out of me for living within my means.

For the Record: There's not alot of difference between Alpo, and this stuff in my bowl here:

Dinty Moore Beef Stew. How delightful.



Oh, here, I'll apologize for the people that sent over things that they had excess of: Something potable by humans.

I'll clue you in: I've met dogs that eat better than I do. And If I were in the position of these destitute peoples in Africa, I'd accept it in a heartbeat.

Get over it man, It's not worth starting a fight over. The world changes with small gestures over time.

And furthermore, Why are you attacking the kindness of some people? They could have marked the food up and sold it to californians for 60 dollars a bag.

This is why Liberals are becoming more and more hated by society. You're making us look like raving madmen.




posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Yes, they ACCEPTED the Dog Food - Mister Grady just did not want to Focus on that part of the story. Yes, the Dog Food will save a number of Lives of the Children. And do you think there are any DOGS left in Kenya?



That's funny because when I was in Kenya I saw a ton of dogs - tame and wild. It was meant it as sarcasm. I guess the wise Jedi didn't get that part.




[edit on 13-2-2006 by zerotime]



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 05:14 AM
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Originally posted by Loki
Get over it man, It's not worth starting a fight over. The world changes with small gestures over time.

And furthermore, Why are you attacking the kindness of some people? They could have marked the food up and sold it to californians for 60 dollars a bag.

It's not about the Kindness of some people.

It's about the PRIORITIES that are Severely F.U.B.A.R. here!

As I stated in a Previous post of mine, the West spends More Billions on Dog Food then for Basic health and nutrition for everyone in the world. And everybody is perfectly ALLRIGHT with that. My sister has a Dog, and I saw what he eats, and I sure would not want my Children to eat that for the next couple of Months. Well, if there wasn't ANYTHING else, ofcourse. But, the problem is, that there IS something else - it just does not get to Africa. It is usually Thrown away.

Yeah, I have a Problem with that.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 05:29 AM
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Ok, so please enlighten me as to how I can send the leftover Chicken Helper I have in my refrigerator to a starving family in Kenya?

I agree with you that there are people in the world who have some seriously mixed up priorities. I don't happen to be one of them. I'd gladly feed the starving if I could.

BUT


You're stirring the fire here, and making every slanderous thing that conservatives say about liberals true. You're not going to make your voice heard by mudslinging and flying off the handle. There are more productive ways to use your energy.

As for dog food, I'd eat it over starving. Definitely. Let me tell you, it sucks to be hungry, and anything you can get is worth it. Ever survive for a month on a single cannister of unsweetened instant oatmeal?

Yep. No fun.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if there is outrage, let it come from the proper place. You have no leg to stand on. There is no reason for you to be outraged from any standpoint.

And if it works for them, let it work for them. If it doesn't, then they can go without it.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 05:51 AM
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Originally posted by Loki
Ok, so please enlighten me as to how I can send the leftover Chicken Helper I have in my refrigerator to a starving family in Kenya?

Why is then so much of the Chicken produced in the Chicken Farms?

Have you seen how those Chicken Farms work?

It's all about the Massive Production, which is CHEAP and produces High ammounts of Food in a very short period of time. Hi-Tech Food Farms, which are making all the small time Farmers out of WORK.

That's what the West is doing - they are slowly killing the Small Man.

What is FOOD? Something that Farmers GROW and the people EAT?

Nope.

If you did not know that Yet, food is a COMMODITY:
  • Much of the best agricultural land in the world is used to grow commodities such as cotton, sisal, tea, tobacco, sugar cane, and cocoa, items which are non-food products or are marginally nutritious, but for which there is a large market;

  • Millions of acres of potentially productive farmland is used to pasture cattle, an extremely inefficient use of land, water and energy, but one for which there is a market in wealthy countries - which does not mean Africa;

  • More than half the grain grown in the United States (requiring half the water used in the U.S.) is fed to livestock, grain that would feed far more people than would the livestock to which it is fed.

In OTHER words - if you don't have the money to BUY food, no one is going to GROW it for you. Simple Capitalistic Rules. No Profit = NO DEAL!

And FOOD Dumping - like this Dumping of Dog Food to Kenya, does not really Help the ones in Need. I mean, yes it helps them for a while to feed their empty stomachs for a few months - but what about LATER when it will Run out? And when the Owner of the Dog Food company will not make the same mistake of producting more that he could sell?

The dumping of the surplus Production for free or nearly NO cost to poorer nations means that the Farmers from such countries Cannot compete and are driven out of Jobs, further slanting the Market share of the larger producers such as the US and Europe.

And the Circle is Complete.

Farmers are out of Job, because the Flooded Food Market is dropping prices of food with Large Food Factories.

This food IS CHEAP - but if you can BUY it, that is; which makes the Farmers from the Poorest countries falling out of this Deal, since they do not have the money to re-start their own business, which means they will soon be on the list of the uneployed people, with nothing to eat and yet another hungry individual, who will be starving out there.

Basicly with Giving Food, you are Destryoing the local Economy of the Country, which already HAS a completly destroyed economy.


World Wasted Wealth

World hunger exists because:

(1) colonialism, and later subtle monopoly capitalism, dispossessed hundreds of millions of people from their land; the current owners are the new plantation managers producing for the mother countries;

(2) the low-paid undeveloped countries sell to the highly paid developed countries because there is no local market [because the low-paid people do not have enough to pay]

(3) the current Third World land owners, producing for the First World, are appendages to the industrialized world, stripping all natural wealth from the land to produce food, lumber, and other products for wealthy nations.

Highly mechanized farms on large acreages can produce units of food cheaper than even the poorest paid farmers of the Third World. When this cheap food is sold, or given, to the Third World, the local farm economy is destroyed. If the poor and unemployed of the Third World were given access to land, access to industrial tools, and protection from cheap imports, they could plant high-protein/high calorie crops and become self-sufficient in food. Reclaiming their land and utilizing the unemployed would cost these societies almost nothing, feed them well, and save far more money than they now pay for the so-called “cheap” imported foods.

Do you knows the Prime Export of Tanzania - a Land that is struggling with Famine?

FOOD!


Darwins Nightmare

Every day, vast Russian planes arrive in Mwanza airport in the north west of the country, leaving with a daily cargo of 500 tons of Nile perch destined for the Russian and European markets. What these planes carry on their way into Africa is a mystery that nobody wants to talk about, until a solitary, subdued pilot admits that he flies tanks and other weapons into Angola. That's where the real money lies. The fish are simply a bonus that fill up the planes on the flight back to Europe.

The cruellest irony is that while so much fish is exported to Europe, Tanzania itself is struggling to avoid famine, so a secondary industry has grown up drying and roasting the decayed, discarded fish carcasses, salvaging what nourishment remains.

And they are not the Only one of the Third World Countries, that suffer from Famine, BUT MUST Export Food.

Why is that?


Food First - True Cause of World Hunger

Of the 830 million hungry people worldwide, a third of them live in India. Yet in 1999, the Indian government had 10 million tons of surplus food grains: rice, wheat, and so on. In the year 2000, that surplus increased to almost 60 million tons — most of it left in the granaries to rot. Instead of giving the surplus food to the hungry, the Indian government was hoping to export the grain to make money. It also stopped buying grain from its own farmers, leaving them destitute. The farmers, who had gone into debt to purchase expensive chemical fertilizers and pesticides on the advice of the government, were now forced to burn their crops in their fields.

At the same time, the government of India was buying grain from Cargill and other American corporations, because the aid India receives from the World Bank stipulates that the government must do so. This means that today India is the largest importer of the same grain it exports. It doesn’t make sense — economic or otherwise.


Remember the much-publicized famine in Ethiopia during the 1980s? Many of us don’t realize that, during that famine, Ethiopia was exporting green beans to Europe.

Welcome to the World of PROFITS - where People are only a Number.

And so are you.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 09:09 AM
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Souljah, you're not placing the blame on those who have earned it. The governments of these poor nations, who take monetary and food aid and keep it from the people who need it. Have you seen some of the mansions the leaders of these starving countries live in. Where do you think they get the money for them. Alot of it is from foreign aid. Here is one of your quotes.



Every day, vast Russian planes arrive in Mwanza airport in the north west of the country, leaving with a daily cargo of 500 tons of Nile perch destined for the Russian and European markets. What these planes carry on their way into Africa is a mystery that nobody wants to talk about, until a solitary, subdued pilot admits that he flies tanks and other weapons into Angola. That's where the real money lies. The fish are simply a bonus that fill up the planes on the flight back to Europe.


The governments are buying these weapons instead of providing food for it's citizens. They are the ones who should be held accountable.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 09:38 AM
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souljah



Farmers are out of Job, because the Flooded Food Market is dropping prices of food with Large Food Factories.

This food IS CHEAP - but if you can BUY it, that is; which makes the Farmers from the Poorest countries falling out of this Deal, since they do not have the money to re-start their own business, which means they will soon be on the list of the uneployed people, with nothing to eat and yet another hungry individual, who will be starving out there.

Basicly with Giving Food, you are Destryoing the local Economy of the Country, which already HAS a completly destroyed economy.


OK Souljah, so all of that bitching about the West not giving enough food and now you're saying that giving any food at all is a bad thing?

You also think the problem with wasted food in the west is due to us producing too much and you think we should cut back so we are hungry like the rest of the world?



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase
OK Souljah, so all of that bitching about the West not giving enough food and now you're saying that giving any food at all is a bad thing?

I never said that the West Should give FOOD - I said AID. Aid is not only Food. Yes, people that Starve need IMMEDIATE Food, but what about when this Aid runs out? You going to give them food for the rest of their life?

There is a Far simpler Soultion - which also Involves foreign aid; MONEY to be exacty, not already made Food. Money is the real Aid that Countries need. Why?


The World’s Wasted Wealth

This system is largely kept in place by underpaying the defeated colonial societies for the real value of their labor and resources, leaving them no choice but to continue to sell their natural wealth to the over-paid industrial societies that overwhelmed them.

To eliminate hunger:
  • (1) the dispossessed, weak, individualized people must be protected from the organized and legally protected multinational corporations;

  • (2) there must be managed trade to protect both the Third World and the developed world, so the dispossessed can reclaim use of their land;

  • (3) the currently defeated people can then produce the more labor-intensive, high-protein/high-calorie crops that contain all eight (or nine) essential amino acids;

  • (4) those societies must adapt dietary patterns so that vegetables, grains, and fruits are consumed in the proper amino acid combinations, with small amounts of meat or fish for flavor. With similar dietary adjustments among the wealthy, there would be enough food for everyone.

There. Nobody will be Hungry, everybody will make just Enough food for themselves, and no surplus of food will get thrown away, while others Starve to death.

But You and I know very well, that there is no Future for that plan - because it simply has no PROFIT, and it costs money. So the Rich Nations are just better of throwing the surplus food around.

That makes Poverty and Hunger not just Simple economic issues then; they are results of complex factors and decisions and aspects of a political economy; an ideological construct to make the Poor even More Poor, and to make the Rich even more Richer.

For Exampl, let's take a Look at Europe and the production of sugar, to help me illustrate the effect of food dumping.


Oxfam - Europe's Double Standards

Europe’s sugar-production costs are among the world’s highest but, paradoxically, the EU is the world’s second biggest sugar exporter. This is made possible by setting the domestic sugar price at three times international prices, and subsidizing exports of excess production onto the world market. EU consumers and taxpayers are forced to pay the hefty bill of (Euro)1.6bn, but the impact falls hardest on developing countries. This is because the EU sugar regime has the following effects:
  • It blocks developing-country exporters, including some of the world’s poorest countries like Mozambique, from European markets,

  • It undercuts developing countries in valuable third markets, such as the Middle East, by subsidizing exports to prices below international costs of production,

  • It depresses world prices by dumping subsidized and surplus production, so damaging foreign-exchange earnings for low-cost exporters such as Brazil, Thailand, and southern Africa.

SO the real winners are a few European sugar processors, and large farmers, who together form a powerful lobby which has blocked change for decades.


White House officials admitted that it would greatly encourage overproduction, fail to help US farmers most in need, and jeopardize markets abroad. According to the European Commission, ‘there is no doubt that the vast bulk of payments under the Farm Bill will go to the largest agri-businesses’.

Third World producers will find it harder to sell to the US market and, since the USA exports 25 per cent of its farm production, they will find it harder to sell in other international markets or to resist competition from US products in their home markets. The disposal of increased US surpluses as ‘food aid’ is likely to compound the loss of livelihoods.

So as you see, the people of the Third World are on the Looser side - as usual.



You also think the problem with wasted food in the west is due to us producing too much and you think we should cut back so we are hungry like the rest of the world?

I think that the problem with Food is, that it is a Commodity - not something that people HAVE to EAT. Therefore, a Market is created for this Commodity, and if you do not have the Resources or the Money to compete in this Market, you are going to be left begind the Global race for the better profit, and you are going to be left without your job, as a small farmer.

Thanks to Capitalism and the rise of Globalism.

And I have Showed you how Easy it would be to Remove Hunger in simple 4 steps - IF WANTED TO OFCOURSE.



[edit on 13/2/06 by Souljah]



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 10:07 AM
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Marg is right.



Their own bodies are eating themselves up. (snip)

When they are feed or force feed if the food is not special they will eventually die from dysenteries cause by to much rich nutrients on the food.

Just because some country wants to give the Starving people in Africa something to survive on, it can actually kill them.

That is why for people in African that are Starving they have to go through a process before they can even put solid food in their stomachs.

So is not as easy as many wants to make it.

Only if the people are already used to rich nutrients, fats and high proteins in their diet they will be able to eat the dog food.


The UN provides the watery white pap for the worst cases and rice laced with nutrients for those who can digest it; but once the food falls into the range of what we consider "food", it goes to the black market. It disappears down a hole of corruption. "Dog Food" on the other hand, might just make it to the people who need it. Those people who are eating one bowl of subsistence rice a day right now.

42 tonnes of dry mix might be enough to keep people on solid food until the seasonal rain comes.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 10:21 AM
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Souljah - If people have a choice between eating a weed that makes them sick and a healthy source of protein, vitamins and minerals that will save their lives, why the big histrionics? Call it dogfood, rations, nutrient packets or Sylvia, I don't care, it can save lives.

What right have you, (doing absolutly nothing to contribute to solution), to talk down to everyone like you're some kind of freaking humanitarian?


Originally posted by Souljah
If Dog Food is SO GREAT and Tasty and Lovely - why don't you people Feed it to your Children?


I do. My dogs are my only children.



You are so Proud now,


Proud? No, How can we be proud of something New Zealand is doing? I have even less input in what they do than what my country does, and that's DAMN LITTLE.



Yes it will Save Lives,


Isn't that a good thing? Not good enough? Saving people from starving isn't good enough?



but Lives could be Saved in Numerous different Way,


Yeah? Then pick one and quit blaming us.




there is just no Wish to do that, 'coz nobody cares.


Dude, that's not true. And you lashing out at us with your anger does not help the situation one bit.

Why are you so mad at us? We're the lowly citizens who DO care. We write our congressmen. What do you really expect us to do?



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Souljah - If people have a choice between eating a weed that makes them sick and a healthy source of protein, vitamins and minerals that will save their lives, why the big histrionics? Call it dogfood, rations, nutrient packets or Sylvia, I don't care, it can save lives.

Well the People of Kenya have Accepted the offer - so whats the Problem? The little Kiddies will be eating dog food for the next few months - not Rations, not Nutrient Packets of Sylvia. I agree - if it saves lives. What about when those packages run out? Will they be sending Whiskas brickets?



What right have you, (doing absolutly nothing to contribute to solution), to talk down to everyone like you're some kind of freaking humanitarian?

I am Expressing my Opinion - I can to that, right?



Isn't that a good thing? Not good enough? Saving people from starving isn't good enough?

Yea BH - that is most Excellent.

So with Right Hand they give Doggie Biscuits, and with the Left one Hand Granades and Guns? How Cute.



Why are you so mad at us? We're the lowly citizens who DO care. We write our congressmen. What do you really expect us to do?

i am not Mad at You, for you are not the Ones to Blame for this System installed. And I think that writing to mister Congressman will not change anthing about the current Global Situation and the way it is going.

What I expect from You?

Absolutely NOTHING.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 02:41 PM
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I previously posted that there was a photo of Souljah at a bar ...it happens it was not him... I appologise for THAT mistake in my post.

The rest of the post i still sign under



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 03:01 PM
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I actually see what Souljah is trying to say but I think there is one huge detail being left out. I have been to 37 different countries on business, pleasure, missions trips and when I worked with the Red Cross. There is a huge problem getting people food. It is not as easy as these people are hungry lets give them something to eat – it does not work that way. It would be fantastic if it were that easy. Anyone who thinks it is that easy is either avoiding the big picture or they are super naive. A problem with almost all of these places is that they are extremely poor, uneducated and out of touch locations. These places are suffering for one big reason - the governments, drug dealers and warlords are siphoning (stealing) all of the resources away from the people who need it the most. We can't get food, medicine or supplies to many parts of the world because the people with guns come in and take it away. Why continue to give hard-earned taxpayer money hand over fist to governments that we know are not using it for the people? We can give all the aid in the world to these places and it won't make one bit of good because the leadership of these nations is corrupt and have no desire to help their poor and needy. Of course we could go in with an army and wipe out these corrupt governments and kill these warlords but then everyone would hate us again for invading a country and sticking our noses in where we don’t belong. It is a no win situation – send aid to places where it will be stolen and misused or don’t sent aid and look like jackasses.


[edit on 13-2-2006 by zerotime]



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
If Dog Food is SO GREAT and Tasty and Lovely - why don't you people Feed it to your Children? Why do you buy the Juicy Beef and Pork and Nice Green, Yellow and Red Vegetables? You think the people who Starve do not want to Eat that - but just the Leftovers?


No dodging this time, what did you have for dinner last night? What about breakfast this morning?

Finally, answer the question if you can, what have you personally sent to the people in Kenya?

Please, spare us all the tirade and just answer those 3 questions.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 04:31 PM
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Souljah, your hatred of anything and well...pretty much everything is clouding your judgement and your post.

I suppose you would bitch and complain if I were to give someone a few dollars as opposed to butt load of cash...or you would find some twisted and crazy logic, hell I don't know....maybe something like it's a bad gift...cause it's a greenback....umm umm the CIA is behind it...false flag Ops in the name Islam..umm lemme think here...oh yeah I got it, Bush, yup it's Bush trying to turn the world into dogs.

I would not be surprised if you said some trash like that


Marg, good thinking
I did'nt think of all that. But I'm pretty sure the company did'nt just fly the food over to Kenya and start passing it out to the hungry. There is probably some sort of system set up to ensure that the people do not just eat all the dog food without properly conditioning (that's the only word I could think of) themselves.

Well, I hope there's a system like that


Hmm, will the food be dispersed by Kenyan gov't or through an NGO...like a missionary, or civilian organization?

[edit on 13/2/2006 by SportyMB]



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 09:42 PM
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Souljah,


HOW many times does it have to be written on this board before you comprehend ENGLISH?

IT IS NOT DOG FOOD!! IT IS SUPPLEMENTS MADE BY A COMPANY THAT ALSO HAPPENS TO MAKE DOG FOOD!

I get your point about the entire world turning the blind eye on these poor people, I hear you! But blaming ONE person who has at least TRIED to help......is NOT the way to get heard, mate. It's grossly unfair to make judgement on someones actions when their intentions are purely to help the starving at NO cost to anyone else. Your fight, is with the 'powers that be' in this world, not Ms NZ Dog Food Company. She's just an individual, like you (except she has actually taken ACTION to help, instead of ranting about politics on a message board). I commend her, without hesitation.

Still, I wait to hear what it is that you do to help the starving. I won't hold my breath.

Cheers



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 10:56 PM
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Note well a phenomenon we see on ATS, from all points of the political and religious spectra . . .

A critic lambasts a "do-gooder" who is helping others without any hope of reward, and the critic complains that the do-gooder "has the wrong attitude" or is doing it for the wrong reasons.

Whether it is me, being picked apart by other Christians for talking about what I do for the homeless

or a government or a corporation that is helping people who aren't even citizens or customers, and never will be.

The self-appointed critics always question motives when they cannot question the act itself.

"You should have done more . . . You're full of self-congratulatory pride . . . your efforts will be only a drop in the bucket . . . ."


In the end, all of these statements boil down to one thing:




You'll never be good enough: You'll never be as good as I am.


That's the real reason for the almost universal distates for souljah. It's not his politics. There are plenty of communists here. Not his support for islamofascists; plenty of people on ATS beg us to look at both sides of terrorism. No, the reason that souljah grates on everyone's nerves, is because no matter what the rest of us do, we'll never be good enough to satisfy Souljah.

It enough to make those of us with a modicum of self-respect want to quit trying.


Souljah has definitely converted more people to capitalism than anyone else on ATS!

.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 11:01 PM
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EDIT: hit the wrong button

[edit on 13/2/2006 by SportyMB]



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 11:05 PM
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Yeah. i get where souljahs coming from. It does seem embarassing to be offered dog food isnt it. I dont think that officials from any country would like to accept dog food to feed there citizens. They get a nice big paycheck, and they wont eating it will they. Maybe if it was an offer from a bean company or SPAM or a corn company, but the only people who offered were a dog food company.Maybe if this wasnt put in newspapers and put to the public for everyone in different countrys to see, then maybe kenya wouldnt have a problem taking that offer, but i think that they might have 2 much pride to accept it.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 11:18 PM
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originally posted by Souljah
In OTHER words - if you don't have the money to BUY food, no one is going to GROW it for you. Simple Capitalistic Rules. No Profit = NO DEAL!

And FOOD Dumping - like this Dumping of Dog Food to Kenya, does not really Help the ones in Need. I mean, yes it helps them for a while to feed their empty stomachs for a few months - but what about LATER when it will Run out? And when the Owner of the Dog Food company will not make the same mistake of producting more that he could sell?

The dumping of the surplus Production for free or nearly NO cost to poorer nations means that the Farmers from such countries Cannot compete and are driven out of Jobs, further slanting the Market share of the larger producers such as the US and Europe.

And the Circle is Complete.


What a load of socialist CRAP! You would rather have the west donate AID in the form of MONEY, wouldn't you, Souljah? That would be so that your friends like DANIEL MOI can continue to LOOT and PLUNDER the country. They can't do that with a box of dogfood or a case of food, can they? It's CASH that they (and YOU) want.

This Circle of Poverty that you allude to is nothing more than antiwestern dis-info. Let me tell you - the west is very generous in their donations to the needy in this world. They give whatever they can donate, unlike your communist and terrorist friends.

Government corruption is the primary problem in Kenya, and many other underdeveloped nations. Here's one pointer to corruption in Kenya - there are dozens more:
www.worldpress.org...

Why do you want to continue to prop up these corrupt leaders, Souljah? Is that the only way they can perpetuate their "governments" - by STEALING from their people?




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