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Infinity a big mistake ?

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posted on Feb, 11 2006 @ 06:27 PM
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i find it funny that Albert Einstein made whoever started this forum a believer a great many years ago but yet he is asking. do some research and watch some movies about space and time theories. Albert Einstein was a scientist, but he proved that everything is God. We do not need our bodies if we use our mind. He lived his life writing the equation that will tell us that reality has to exist, and we choose to live it. then we all die and go to heaven, because we are everything. he died with his notebook in hand, still writing it.
it is so simple for many, but for unbelievers, we need to write them an equation. and he died trying. and in my opinion, no one ever will write it. cuz it's too simple. in other words,




posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by chibidai_rrrEinstein was a scientist


Einstein was a mathematician.



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 01:49 AM
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What book is this from?


The equation was from a book called : " The Infinite Book "



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 03:12 AM
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siddharthsma,

This is an interesting theory. I have never doubted infinity.

Thanks for showing me some other options.






Originally posted by siddharthsma

I personally find it hard to believe the concept of Infinity, and that there is anything in the Universe we can describe as totally infinite. I believe Infinity is the cause of many problems in science, or perhaps infinity is really something else not what we describe it as.


Where Infinity goes wrong :

Let us say that the following series has an infinite number of terms:

S = 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 +1 - 1 ..... and so on forever

Now there are different ways we can group these :

S = (1-1) + (1-1) + (1-1) + .... and so on

therefore S = 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 .....
so S = 0

but there is another way we can group these numbers in the series:

S = 1 + (-1 +1) + (-1 +1) + (-1 + 1) + ........... and so on

In this case S = 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + ......... and so on

therefore S = 1
Therefore in this series, with infinite terms, 0 = 1

I got this example from a book, and I thought it was a good example of when Infinity can cause unecessary problems in Math.
But we also know infinity causes problems in Physics, e.g when we say space time can have infinite curvature. This runs us into a singularity.

What do you think, is infinity really necessary, or is it a concept that should be discarded ?



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 03:38 AM
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Does the universe have an end?
What hapens when you try to pass the end?, is there a big brick wall saying the end of universe nothing beyond just dark and nothing?well i can go in the dark and walk and i'll be heading away from the universe, simply because i'm heading away means that i'm moving, if i'm moving that means it's something.

To put an end to infinity it would require a wall or some sort, i dont know
if some of you noticed it playing a 3d video game and when you try to go off
map you cant, it jsut a puzzle, we are not even bacteria compared to the whole universe.
I think infinity means just darknes nothing, no matter no nothing, is it possible to move in darknes?that would be the question.



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 03:45 AM
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The ionization energy of an atom is treated that an electron goes from its ground state (n=1) to an infinite distance from the nucleus (n=infinity).

nu = 109680(1/n^1 - 1/infinity^2) cm-1
E = planck's * nu

There is infinity time. Just because the universe spreads out to its maximum distance and implodes on itself doesn't mean the timer is still going.



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 03:45 AM
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Einstein was first a scientist, second a mathematician. By his own words.

Also I do beleive the universe to be infinite but infintely looping.

Black holes however I do not associate with infinity. They are simply equal to the mass of all things put into it (which we can hardly guess at). In the smallest area possible. Thus the gravity coming from that area is highly focused.

Imo eventually the universe will slow down expansion then slowly start to pull itself back together into one large black hole. The force of which becomes to great causing it to implode and big bang..

Its hard to imagine that theory correct simply because of the time, scale, and sizes involved. Our Universe since the last big bang is estimated to be 10-15 billion years old and still on the upswing of the energy release. Thus putting the entire cycle at least into 100s of billions of years.



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 03:48 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
Does the universe have an end?
What hapens when you try to pass the end?, is there a big brick wall


Some scientists are thinking that you loop back around on the other side of the universe. Of course just thinking about the extreme vastness of it all makes me feel so insignificant it makes me wanna cry.



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 04:07 AM
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Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_Llama

Originally posted by pepsi78
Does the universe have an end?
What hapens when you try to pass the end?, is there a big brick wall


Some scientists are thinking that you loop back around on the other side of the universe. Of course just thinking about the extreme vastness of it all makes me feel so insignificant it makes me wanna cry.


Honestly we are thinking like a coch roach that has never been in space and that is trying to make conclusions.
It would be a thing what you said, if that would be true the universe would look like a sfere round ball just like a planet.
We didint think the earth was round we just penetrated up and saw the facts.
That is a theory at least and it would explain why we would return to the point we started from in universe but that if we knew for a fact that the uiverse is round, we dont even know that.
Some of you asks answers with formulas but that is not my question.
My question would be what hapens when you pass the point of no attoms no matter no nothing and you keep going, do you go further away from a point.

So here is the last point where you can find matter can you make a departure from it will it take you further and further away from it has a point of distance?
I think this is one way to interpret the infinity, that is of course if there are not other universes, how about a little buch of universes in a biger one

I guess we cant explain this, after all maybe this universe is just a video game
or just a rock with bacteria on it or just a water drop.



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 07:43 AM
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I dont know the math to well but I do believe infinity does excist. as with a black hole on the event horizion just before things stop they slow down then reachin the black hole they stop , particles that once bashed together in space then seem to stop. This would be infinity would it not particles that once moved and collided and caused disruption that is what we call time disruption of things is our measure of time so would light or any mass in a black hole be stuck for infinity? as mass and energy seem to stop its disruption



posted on Feb, 12 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by siddharthsma
Let us say that the following series has an infinite number of terms:
S = 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 +1 - 1 ..... and so on forever
Now there are different ways we can group these :
S = (1-1) + (1-1) + (1-1) + .... and so on
therefore S = 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 .....so S = 0
but there is another way we can group these numbers in the series:
S = 1 + (-1 +1) + (-1 +1) + (-1 + 1) + ........... and so on
In this case S = 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + ......... and so on
therefore S = 1
Therefore in this series, with infinite terms, 0 = 1


Yes, infinity exists AND it does logically work.

The problem with your approach is that you're working with an infinite series and your infinite series can only be answered IF you know whether its end value is even or odd. But since it is infinite, it is neither even nor odd.
So...
S = [1,0], depending on its final location in the series (which doesn't exist).

To explain infinite numbers, you have to take all actions of the infinite sequence/series/set into account.

In your example, the question you posed is not that relevant. If you had to apply this series to another equation, then it would be relevant.

However, this is how you MIGHT use it in another equation:

Original: F(Series) = ...
Case 1: F(0) = ...
Case 2: F(1) = ...

OR

Original: F(x) = 483x + (Series)*(x^44)
Case 1: F(x) = 483x + (0)*(x^44) = 483x
Case 2: F(x) = 483x + (1)*(x^44) = 483x + x^44

Therefore, you are left with two distinct, yet valid solutions.

The real problem comes when you start to have infinite solutions... this problem was cake.

Finally, "infinity" is defined in terms of Sets, which is not even really taught in an undergrad math major, let alone what you would find in a standard high school curricula. The concept of infinity is not meant for the average person to understand or grasp. It is quite frankly TOO BIG. That is not irony... or is it?



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 04:15 AM
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Originally posted by Frosty

Originally posted by chibidai_rrrEinstein was a scientist


Einstein was a mathematician.


Albert Einstein (March 14, 1879–April 18, 1955) was a theoretical physicist, and is widely regarded as the greatest scientist of the 20th century. He was the author of the theory of relativity, and he also made major contributions to the development of quantum mechanics, statistical mechanics, and cosmology. He was awarded the 1921 Nobel Prize for Physics for his explanation of the photoelectric effect in 1905 (his "miracle year") and "for his services to Theoretical Physics."

en.wikipedia.org...

You don't acknowledge he was a scientist?

[edit on 042828p://13u41 by Lucid Lunacy]



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 05:34 AM
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Originally posted by Produkt
You have to forgive albie, he apparently hasn't learned of quantum mechanic's yet.

The two thing's people have the most trouble grasping.. Infinity and nothingness. We live in a finite space, all our experience's deal with the finite, so obviously we think of thing's to be finite. We also live in something, so it's hard to imagine a nothingness. Surely we can't exist in nothingness if we live in something, right? Well, maybe the universe does exist in nothingness, we don't know for sure what the condition's are outside our sphere of existance. Perhap's that nothingness is also like our vaccuum in space, appear's to be nothing there, but measure it at the quantum scale and you see a sea of virtual particals popping in and out of existance. I honestly don't have a problem with nothingness nor infinity as most people do. I think it's rather cool.


What a pile of (forgive me) poo.

Quantum mechanics is mathematical THEORY. Hence fiction.
'but measure it at the quantum scale and you see a sea of virtual particals popping in and out of existance.'

OH MY GOD! That's so lame! You are talking about something that is unproven and anyway, those particles are popping in and out, perhaps, but in a universe already existing. They could be simply moving in and out of planes of existence. This is not what I am talking about at all. Jesus I must be thick if I haven't explained myself properly.

I'm talking about total genesis. The beginning of the beginning of the beginning, not fictional math models or misunderstood particle activity.

JJJJJJJJJEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSS.

You actually fell for the scientists explanation? Shheesh.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 06:40 AM
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Quantum mechanics is the best tested theory we have. Theory doesn't mean unproven - theory means it has observational, experimental, and mathematical proof. Read up on the scientific method.

Undergraduate mathematics will teach you about infinity, if you're a math major. Hence why I don't believe some people have taken much university level mathematics, and their misconception about the mathematical viewpoint of infinity - not the philosophical.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 07:09 AM
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Infinity has nothing to do with maths or philosophy. You can't calculate infinity. It isn't a number.

And would you agree that observing mathematical particles 'pop in and out of reality' is not conclusive evidence that reality (please ponder that word a moment) can simply pop into existence. That these so called particles, measured by our simple little tools, are far from evidence of anything at all, so far?

Wouldn't you admit I have a point?

This isn't the first time I've debated this btw. You don't need to be a maths wizz to know that entire universes cannot simply manifest from nothing.

And when I say 'nothing', I don't mean space. I don't mean some other imagined plateau your mind automatically conjures. I mean nada.

Produkt (bless his socks) imagines he has a better understanding of such things as 'nothing'. I would say he has an understanding warped by scientific snake oil.

[edit on 13-2-2006 by albie]



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
Does the universe have an end?
What hapens when you try to pass the end?, is there a big brick wall saying the end of universe nothing beyond just dark and nothing?well i can go in the dark and walk and i'll be heading away from the universe, simply because i'm heading away means that i'm moving, if i'm moving that means it's something.

To put an end to infinity it would require a wall or some sort, i dont know
if some of you noticed it playing a 3d video game and when you try to go off
map you cant, it jsut a puzzle, we are not even bacteria compared to the whole universe.
I think infinity means just darknes nothing, no matter no nothing, is it possible to move in darknes?that would be the question.


From Big Bang theory we can say that the universe is steadily expanding , which means that there are particles that reach the boundary of the universe and move beyond it. We can assume that there are billions of particles that pass the end of the universe every second. However this is not accurate because we dont have enough knowledge about the end of the universe.

If we consider that there is an infinite 4-dimentional empty space, then our universe is expanding in this 4-d space but it will never pass to higher dimensional spaces.

Assume a higher order space of 5-dimention, our 4-dimentional universe will never be able to pass outside the surface of 5-d space, even though it is expanding to infinity.

To understand this easier we can observe first lower dimensions:

Imagine we live in a 2-dimensional universe , where people live on an infinite 2d plane. Imagine our 2d plane is an infinite paper and that people are just circles and squares on that paper. Now take a man that have a square shape (lets call him Mr. Square
)and draw a line on front of him, can he jump over that line? NO.. now draw a complete rectangle around Mr. Square and he will never be able to get out and the rectangle will be a prison to him. In a 3d-universe a man can easily jump over the line , or get out of the rectangle.

Now imagine that we live in 2d universe that occupies the surface of a 3d space , for example assume that we live on the surface of a 3d ball. the ball will expand steadily which will make our universe expand without entering the 3rd dimension. in other words the 2d universe will still expanding but will not occupy the whole 3d space.

Lets go back to reality, we live in a 3d universe that occupies the surface of 4d space. Although our 3d universe is expanding it will never leave the surface of the 4d space and it will not occupy all 4d space. This means if you travel in our finite universe for very long time you will never leave the surface , and when you find the end you will be surprised that you returned to the starting point. If you have a telescope that can see the furthest point in the universe you will see your back


Our real problem is that we don't know how many dimensions out there. Is our space 4d , 5d, or even 10-dimentional ? Is our 4d universe occupying the surface of a 5d space ?!! are there other universes out there?


[edit on 13-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 13-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 13-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by albie

What a pile of (forgive me) poo.

Quantum mechanics is mathematical THEORY. Hence fiction.


Then if you believe all theories are pure fiction, why are you evenarguing this concept of infinity. Why dont you just label it as pure fiction and call it a day.

Protector beat me to it. He wrote exactly what I was about to, good job.

The original poster did not understand that you cannot chose a finite end to an infinite problem to satisfy a solution that fits a predisposed notion.

Train



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 10:49 AM
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I was a physics major in college, so I have ran into the "infinity" concept several times.
I personally believe it exists, but it's hard to wrap the human mind around such an animal. I personally subscribe the the Many Worlds Interpretation...so I pretty much have to

I DO remember my college calculus professor mentioning something in passing about perhaps if you were able to follow a number line to infinity, you'd find yourself back at zero....
*shrug* math can be fun as sh** or just as frustrating



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 08:46 PM
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Ok, have'nt read all the posts, read the first 10, but since I'm respondinf to the first, I don't have a need to read further, plus I feel a bit queasy, so I'm definately not gonna make it worse by reading more posts that make me think.

Ok, now I scientifically believe in infinity, I don't see how the universe or anything could exist without it, thats with my personal beliefs, which deal with many infinites, aside.

I mean for example, if something is finite in size, than there has to be something outside of that, and that go's on and on and on, you can't say, well theres somethig that the end point, for that it would have to be finite, and therefore have to be something outside it, or it would have to be infinately large.



posted on Feb, 13 2006 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by iori_komei
Ok, have'nt read all the posts, read the first 10, but since I'm respondinf to the first, I don't have a need to read further, plus I feel a bit queasy, so I'm definately not gonna make it worse by reading more posts that make me think.

Ok, now I scientifically believe in infinity, I don't see how the universe or anything could exist without it, thats with my personal beliefs, which deal with many infinites, aside.

I mean for example, if something is finite in size, than there has to be something outside of that, and that go's on and on and on, you can't say, well theres somethig that the end point, for that it would have to be finite, and therefore have to be something outside it, or it would have to be infinately large.


Don't forget about the infinitesimally small







 
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