The WMD Cult

The cult feeling has grown.

'Glorious inventions' of the industrial-military complex.

Widespread WMD in far-off lands, not being dealt with, because those are not oil rich.

A great observation of Powell's demeanor, Fry2, you're not alone in your thought on that. When I was an ATS pup (still am) I would talk to Tyriffic about Powell under the stress of lying and he would tell me I was not fit to tie Powell's shoelaces. As Powell is still there and still lying, my personal respect for the Secretary of State is now less than zero.

So, there is an offshoot of the WMD cult. Cultists who know that WMD were never the reason for invading Iraq, but who feel the invasion was entirely legal and justified, even though it was sold to Congress and Parliaments on the basis of the imminent threat of readily deployable WMDs. I can't belong to that cult. It's not OK to me to launch a full scale war and occupation on a sovereign nation on the basis of known lies, no matter whether you are as corrupt as the Bush/PNAC agenda, or not...

Stretching it a bit there MA. How can I belong to a cult of something I don't really believe in?
Is the mask too tight?
I think I should have my own cult and Leveller is the first one I want to join (or, possibly, lead).
In my opinion the entire WMD thing was media hype with such a HUGE interest that it surprised the administration and they ran with it. It was a huge mistake. I wish they were a bit more truthful when it comes to this #. At least come out and say "We need a strategic forward position in the center of the middle east with a large oil reserve we can buy for cheap."
If I heard that along with the other nasty things we all knew Saddam was up to I would have been fine with sending in an assasin team to take out the top brass and maybe a bit'o help from spec ops. Screw the law about assasinating world leaders. What's better, a war or a few assholes dead?
That's my take.

Leveller,

I have read the resolution 1441 from a previous post on this website last april, and I re read it again to see if theres something I am missing.

I still dont see where it states that use of force is allowed without the approval of the UN security council. Can you please point this one out?

The resolution also states the nature of WMD that Iraq has been accused of having, yet none of these have been found after our invasion. Like, for instance, ballistic missiles ranging over 150 miles. The cloest thiung to it were the Al Samoud 2s that the UN found when they were there, since then, nothing.

So, my guess, is, judging the accusations in 1441, that Saddam was in possesion of all this, and yet none of this was found, would that not basically can the resolution right there, a resolution drafted on false statements and the like, much like say, in a court of law, if the cops bust someones house and find no drugs on the premesis when thier warant states there are, isnt that usually thrown out of court anyway?

If you can point out the specific language where it states that the use of force and an invasion and occupation are legal, Id appreciate it, because the only thing I see is disarm by any means necessary, which while that statement is an open book, its a book open to either side reallly.

And Masked, yes, youre right about Powell. It seems, that the dove, Powell, who was basically an outcast because he had a more cautious and uncertain approach has been intimidated into becoming a hawk.....that it, from what we have seen. On the other hand, who knows what happened behind the scenes with him.......I wouldnt write him off just yet.

Much mroe there than meets the eye, and its something we should really look intom, because it is key. hes not just some govornment lackey, hes the secretary of state.

Fry2

I can't disagree with your assessment, although I still think there is much more than oil and strategic military presence at stake.

By virtue of visiting this thread you are part of the ATS WMD Cult, which if you look at it, is not a huge proportion of the ATS Cult.

To me, promoting a war effort on deception and lies is criminal. To others who post-rationalize, it ends up being OK.

That's probably what's wrong with war in the first place huh. You have to lie to sell it as the aggressor, and the only way you can be just is if some prick comes and invades your country and you have some semblance of a defense force to defend with.

BTW, there are no WMDs in Iraq, it has been scoured totally. But there will still be some who don't get to first base, and who say there are WMDs - they just haven't been found!

What do you think "serious consequences" are Skadi?
Every single nation that signed up to 1441 knew that to mean the use of force. To deny otherwise is to bury ones head in the sand and deny the truth.
The only "serious consequence" that COULD be taken was military action. Every other means of punishment had already been used.

Nobody from the UN has ever denied that 1441 was NOT breached. Quite the opposite. It isn't even pertinent to the argument as it has never been questioned by any nation which signed it.

The legal question of wether the war was legitimate was based on the fact that some people argued that a full further concensus from the Security Council was needed before the "serious consequences" could be taken.

To put it quite simply, there were those who thought Saddam would cave in but he called their bluff and found them wanting in the reproductive department.

Welcome to the cult (you know if I had half the brains Thomas Crowne has I'd be long GONE form this diatribe of socialists and commie wannabes who have NEVER stuck their OWN necks out ONCE...)

Let me give a little insight to who it is that runs the "Bush Hater Show here at ATS...

He sits, nationless, at least doesn't have enough passion in his heart to claim the nation he was born in as his own by his OWN statement, and he RAILS incessantly about how corrupt MY (USA) government is. That's right gents, he who claims NO NATION has the ARROGANCE to claim MINE is so corrupt it should be usurped.

I simply can't and WON'T swallow the spew of one who has never fought for anything. One who claims NOTHING as his to defend!

A man who has no allegience is not a man in my book... I know it sounds real "suave" and "classy" to say "I don't RECOGNIZE any national borders" but i tell you THAT is the "NWO" THINKING we all scream about here!

Who the HELL is this guy? He doesn't think any nation is worthy of his life?! He thinks national identity is a JOKE?

He states that a nation DEFENDING itself from ATTACK is corrupt?

There is an old Norse/Viking saying "Trust NO MAN without a device upon his shield, he is for sale to the highest bidder"...

'Nuff said...

PEACE...
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Yeah. whatever... WHO ARE YOU?!

You come on here and place ONE post with ZERO credentials and call ME a FOOL?

Obviously YOU are another ID for someone who is already a member here...

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Springer

I can't claim to be the leader of Bush haters in this particular community, so your comments may not be in reference to me at all. I am not one full of hate and loathing, but I see and call on the worst government in US history as I see fit.

However, son, I need to let you know, son, that as a citizen of the earth I claim ALL nations as mine, and swear allegiance to all of them and none of them at the same time. So, son, you see, I include nations that allow petty small-minded idiot administrations such as the Bush admin as my own as well, and spend enjoyable time there, not half a mile from your home, whenever I please...

I am nation-full, having visited and lived in many, and have never been nationless, as many Americans would be feeling today.

And that's a FACT!



Again, you of the small mind are attempting to discredit me again, now on grounds of where I come from, which is more pathetic than your coloring crayon effort. You have no I idea whence I come or what my nationality is. But I am more American than you in my ideals.

You have refrained from arguing the facts. You are stuck in a rut of your own making, with nowhere to turn, and I am pleased that this has come about because you have finally realised how pathetic and corrupt the Bush administration really is. It has done nothing of worth, ever, and will do nothing of worth before it makes a hasty exit prior to the 2004 election. Mark my words. They have more meaning than Bush has ever said or will ever say.



[Edited on 6-10-2003 by MaskedAvatar]

Just GIVE IT UP! Not even YOU can have it both ways, DADDY-O...

Again you show your CLASS (or LACK OF) with the "SON" business, VERY good ettiquette I must say.

LOW RENT bruthah! VERY Low Rent show of discipline.

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Alzheimers is hitting males in their early 40s at an increasing rate in western societies. There are many explanations, including too much cooking in aluminum saucepans, fluoridation, and discombobulation created by a changing environment with little consistency from a firm and just leader.

Early symptoms to watch for are:

* self-perceived bodily ageing at and advancing rate
* forgetfulness
* regression to childhood behaviors
* unexplained grumpy episodes with family and peers
* need for reinforcement of things that provide simple-minded pleasures, to connect with semblance of reality.

Treatment of the ATS variant includes:

* ECT (see Dictionary of ATS Acronyms 2003)
* games therapy (including war games, for members who have been brainwashed into believeing that WMDs have not been found because we haven't looked hard enough)

See the Gulf War 2 played out here (you need Shockwave, and it's worth it... this was written in November 2002, and we're still only at the first stage!)

www.idleworm.com...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

I forgot to mention that narcolepsy is another serious symptom of Alzheimers in early 40s men.

My discussion with Springer is over, and if he continues to pollute this thread with inanity, then I wish him well in clawing back any semblance of respect from ATS members who want to be informed and who want to support the mission of the site, which unfortunately he cannot do.

This is a quality article from Asia Times:

www.atimes.com...

BAGHDAD and AMMAN - Chief United Nations weapons inspector Hans Blix knew it. Former weapons inspector Scott Ritter knew it. French, German and Russian intelligence knew it. Sultan Hashim Ahmad - Iraq's former minister of defense, now safe after a cosy deal with the Americans - knew it. In 1995, Hussein Kamel, married to one of Saddam Hussein's daughters and the man in charge of it all, knew it. The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in Langley and the MI6 in London knew it. Saddam's regime was not lying when it claimed that it had destroyed all its WMD after the 1991 Gulf War. Whatever the spin, the fact of the matter is that now there's conclusive proof that both US President George W Bush and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair lied about the reason for invading Iraq.

As it was widely reported at the time, on the night of August 7, 1995, General Hussein Kamel, former director of Iraq's Military Industrialization Corp - the organism in charge of Iraq's weapons program - defected to Jordan, along with his brother, Colonel Saddam Kamel. Hussein Kamel managed to smuggle tons of documents with him with priceless information about different Iraqi weapons programs. A few days later, Saddam's regime went on the offensive, presenting another set of documents showing that Iraq had conducted an aborted crash program to develop a nuclear bomb. A few months later, Hussein and Saddam Kamel made the biggest mistake of their lives. Following family pleas and giving credence to assurances from Baghdad, they returned to Iraq in early 1996, and were inevitably killed by Saddam's secret services.

On August 22, 1995, Hussein Kamel was interviewed in Amman by three top Western officials: Rolf Ekeus, executive chairman of UNSCOM from 1991 to 1997; Professor Maurizio Zifferero, deputy director of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and head of the inspections team in Iraq; and Nikita Smidovich, a Russian diplomat who led UNSCOM's ballistic missile team, and Deputy Director for Operations of UNSCOM. Major Izz al-Din al-Majid, a cousin of Saddam Hussein's who defected with the Kamel brothers, was also present. Unlike the brothers, he remained in Jordan and exiled himself in Europe in an undisclosed location.

The key document - shown to Asia Times Online by a Jordanian intelligence source - is in the form of an internal UNSCOM/IAEA report classified as "sensitive". On page 13 of what is the transcript of the UNSCOM/IAEA interview with Hussein Kamel, he categorically says, "I ordered the destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons - biological, chemical, missile, nuclear were destroyed." He also says that "not a single missile was left, but they had blueprints and molds for production. All missiles were destroyed."

(continues).

Has BEEN OVER for quite sometime. It is only VERY recently that he grasped same...

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More hypocrisy from Springer:

From 9/29/03, 9.10 am, Post # 193345 on the thread about Hussein gassing or not gassing Kurds.

Dialogue with ATS member Sanders:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

REALLY? Who are MY sources son?

Compare with above, in this thread:

Originally posted by Springer
Just GIVE IT UP! Not even YOU can have it both ways, DADDY-O...

Again you show your CLASS (or LACK OF) with the "SON" business, VERY good ettiquette I must say.

No street cred at all. QED.

NO NATION, NO DEDICATION, NOTHING BUT RIDICULE for that which you do NOT HAVE.

No Means to justify and end. NOTHING. ZERO. HYPERBOLE ONLY.

END.

PEACE...
OUT...
m...

In that SAME thread Sanders REALIZED his ONEROUS INFORMATION was FALSE and redacted his original thought process.

AND was MAN/WOMAN enough to admit it.

A MINOR point overlooked by the GRIM PEEPER...

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GO BE HAPPY.

Springer

You are devolving into an amoebic blob of jelly in front of the eyes of your peers.

Pull yourself together, man! Stiff upper lip, and all that.

Actually I read what Sanders had said quite differently to what you read. I think he got off his double entendre nicely, son.


My understanding of the discovery of biological toxin vials:

"David Kays' teams have already found a vial of botulinum toxin - "one of the most toxic elements known" - in the refrigerator of an Iraqi scientist who'd hidden it since 1993."

Botulinum toxin has a maximum shelf life of 3 years. Even under refrigeration, that vial has been useless for 7 years.

In DREAMLAND? That's OBVIOUSLY where you are DAD (Classy man REAL classy you are!)...

I'll tell you what, when you WAKE UP in THIS world let me know ok?

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