Call it what you will, but I'm responding logically. The leadership of Islam is the problem, even if it isn't every single Muslim on the planet. Still, the greatest threat to peace currently is Islam and I'm pretty sick of it. If you want to assign an emotion to my response, try anger.

So if it's the leadership of Islam, then why do we have cases of terrorist or violent muslim-masses only in this or that country, not all muslim countries?

Yes, it anger, alright, but don't you see that's clouding your logic, the same as it's clouding the logic of the ones who cry "Death to the infidels" or "Death to the Zionist Pigs". They've got their judgement clouded by anger instead of reason, wouldn't you agree?

No, I wouldn't agree, but since I don't care what you think, I'll leave you with your condescending armchair psychology.

Wow, right now I'm thinking about this gal at work who's a Muslim - one of the nicest, most tolerant and most intelligent people I know - and I guess I should denounce her to the police, so they can send her back to whatever hellhole she came from until the Yanks drop the atomic bomb to rid us of all Muslims, right?

*turns sarcastic switch off*

Generalizations are what extremism is made of, Grady.

I tend to agree with the poster who said that if the US had so much power over the rioters, why not just make them commit mass suicide?

The theory of using an incident in Denmark to garner EU support for an attack on Iran doesn't make much sense, either. But once again, to some people, the US must always be involved where there is foul play.:shk"

I'm not suggesting that, at all, Otts, and I don't need your condescension, either. You don't need to abandon your values to see the light and start putting politicians on the stick when it comes to this outlandish behavior carried out by Muslims in Russia, Indonesia, Britain, Iraq, Spain, the US, Denmark, ad nauseum.

[edit on 2006/2/9 by GradyPhilpott]

The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." 4

www.threeworldwars.com...

GradyPhilpott,

So it's "my way or the highway then?" I'm sorry you see my questions as condescending, but if you don't care why do you bother to post? It certainly isn't my intention to sound condescending. Was I condescending? Can you point out where it was? I don't want to offend anyone, I'm just seeking the truth, with logic and reason, not emotions, and if that offends you so be it. I'm only exercising my freedom of speech. It's really not my intention to goad anyone.

Bobular,

Sorry I didn't notice your post until just now.




The world may be getting smaller, but it's still a big place. I myself have only been to a small portion of it to see for myself. Basically just my neck of the woods and a neighbouring muslim majority country.

I can only safely make assumptions from what I have seen myself or heard from many who hail from those regions myself, no? If I didn't I could possibly make assumptions that have no merit.

As I stated in my first post, I don't have all the answers. I'm simply seeking the truth behind it all. That's why I started this thread -- to seek valid hypotheses that are not driven by knee-jerk reactions but those that take a broader look and perspective not only from the social and economical climate, but also from a geopolitical perspective. These forces govern every region and carry a lot of weight in the actions of a population, there's no reason to think it's otherwise with muslim majority regions/countries.

Let's start this over, let's start by listing the trouble spots in the muslim world shall we? I think anywhere there's violent protests (not loud demonstrations), terrorist actions (or source countries), or anywhere else there are rampant senseless killings or violence would fit the criteria, wouldn't you?

I will list what I can think of off the top of my head, I invite other members to feel in the gaps.

So we have:-

Afghanistan
Syria
Lebanon
Sudan
Libya
Iraq
Iran*
Saudi Arabia*
Yemen*
Kashmir (Pakistan)*
Southern Thailand
Southern Philippines
Indonesia
Chechnya (Russia)
Palestine

(*) Claimed to have been the source of plenty of terrorists, or terrorist influence.

I think there's some more, but that's all I can think at the moment. Plenty of troubled spots. I only know the tale of Indonesia. It's mainly socio-economic there.

So which country have I missed?

No response? I'm sure I missed some areas out. I may even be off-the-mark pertaining to terrorist source countries.

I thought this might help jog people's memories. A list of majority muslim countries, with troubled spots highlighted by me:



So that's 12/50 trouble spots, 15/53 if you include Chechnya, Southern Phillipines and Southern Thailand. I'm not sure whether to include regions of France though, on account of the riots last year.

Pretty bad, though - that's nearly 25% of all muslim majority regions or slighly less than a quarter, in terms of regions/countries. But that's still not the majority, that's still not even half.

What it is in terms of population I am uncertain, and I wouldn't make an estimate yet based on a tally of the muslim population in the Troubled Regions. I'll wait till I get all the facts right - I'm pretty sure there's more regions - it's just not coming to me at the moment, the ones I've bolded did because they've been displayed so prominently in the news. Whether the news is true or not is another matter, but tentatively I'm sure you'd with me agree there's trouble brewing in those countries.

But please do point out if I mistakenly highlighted the wrong countries, or if I missed out any other notorious rogue muslim states.

After we are done with this exercise, we can start to examine the countries involved and see if we can find any discernible patterns -- the common thread if you will -- other than the fact that they're muslim majority countries because that point alone cannot explain it properly. I can hardly imagine a Maldivian born suicide bombers -- no way those guys are way too cool, the Maldivians.

Come on, don't be shy. Add your analyses to the thread.

P.S. I'm not sure if I posted this thread in the right forums or not. I meant it to be a thread where we can discuss the source of Islamic extremism, which is what the War on Terrorism is claimed to be aiming to eliminate. That's why I posted it here. But maybe it should be posted in ATS Skunk Works. I'm not sure -- any thoughts on that?

Edit: minor grammar glitch..

[edit on 10-2-2006 by Beachcoma]

Why are these people full of extreme rage and hate. Why do they constantly start fights and start problems with their own and abroard. I think they are all mentally unstable. They are just idiots for everything they do and represent. If mohammoud is no better than the jesus cult for starting a religion that breeds hate, brainwashing, and wars

I agree completely, I am not apologising for their actions, I just want to understand why the masses there don't rise up to respond to it. Why are the responses in the highlighted countries violent?

I also would like to understand why masses do not protest against violence more - violence in their OWN Muslim-midest.

I think it is not at all enough to say: "Look, we are not all like those few who are that dangerous violent"

Nobody has to tell me that fact, it is obvious that not the whole Muslim world is evil and dangerous.

But those who ARE, use the Quran, hadits, fatwas.....and whatever religious aspects of the religion ISLAM are existing excat the way they want it as justification for their agenda.
AND: This Muslims belong to what Muslims call "Ummah".

What legitimation should I as a NON-MUSLIM have to tell people who are born as Muslims and have the religion Islam:

"Hey - that does not fit in your religion, "you do not behave like a Muslim"" ?!?

I have none.

It is the exclusive decision of Muslims - in whatever denomination of the Islam they belong to - to decide what their religion justifies and what not.

MUSLIMS have to argue with MUSLIMS about this, not with me.

Therefore, I think it is it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst.

And only the Muslim world can root out that death cult from a religious point of argumentation It takes a village. The Muslim village has been derelict in condemning the madness of jihadist attacks. They have to delegitimize, condemn and isolate the extremists in their midst.

Some Muslim leaders have taken up this challenge - but this has to go further and wider.


[edit on 12-2-2006 by Riwka]

I think this is a good example:

Why NOT talk about that phrase "virgins in paradise"?

Saying that I do not at all mean that someone has to argue with me if this is a missinterpretation or misstranslation within the Islam or not - I am a NON-Muslim and I have my own religion.

But: Those Muslims who blow themselves up, are sure this is NO religious missinterpretation

So it takes the MUSLIM world to stand up against this and to argue with MUSLIMS about that and to stop this with religious arguments.

And in regard to the "cartoon conspiracy":



It takes the MUSLIM world to stand up and explain to their fellow MUSLIMS that they are following an orchestered agenda - done by MUSLIMS, Imans who FAKED cartoons and told other horrible lies.

Anything like that seen in any newspaper of those countries? I did not.


[edit on 12-2-2006 by Riwka]

Beachcoma:

Here is a link to the Islamic population of the world.

www.nationmaster.com...


Grady:

Thank you Riwka, I thank you for your calm and rational responses.

I completely agree with you that a lot more has to be done within the muslim communities to root out this "cult of death" as you say it. But the muslim world is very large (thanks loam, for the link) and widely scattered. Yet we see the extremist movement focused in certain regions while in others it barely gets a foothold.

Poverty and Violence

Yes, we as muslims need to clean house. I do not deny that. However I believe there is only so much a muslim from one region at one corner of the Earth can do to affect changes in regions where this cult of destruction have taken root. It is up to the muslims in that area to stand up to this extremist minority.

I am not passing the buck, but simply being practical about it. The most we in unaffected regions can do for the time being is to stem the tide, stop these ghastly and barbaric ideas from taking root in our neck of the woods.

Now that is out of the way, the second issue to be addressed is the "why" of it all. Why does it spread easily in one region, whereas it can barely gain support in another. As ubermuche have mentioned earlier in this thread,

"Impoverished, poorly educated populations are especially vulnerable to radical ideas that promise something greater than the bleak existence they endure, add disposession or oppressive regimes to the mix and you have a population rife for exploitation by those with their own power base to recruit for."

I myself couldn't have put it better. I strongly believe this is the prime factor if you will, that makes the ideas behind the cult of death take hold easily. Think of it like the undercoat, the base layer that allows for even more twisted ideas to take root.

I've seen the effects poverty can have in making a population more violent, I've seen it happen in Indonesia and also I've seen it happen in the worst of immigrant slums here in my beloved country Malaysia. This was back in '98 if I'm not mistaken. Yep, those were testing times for us. We managed to stem the tide with laws we had set up in the 1950s to combat communist insurgents. Al Gore criticized us for those laws. Tosser.

Foreign Policies

America's foreign policy I believe is another strong factor. What the US thinks of other nations really has a lot of weight in the world. Taking the Gore example again, he had made some comments supporting the movement out to oust Mahathir, the former PM who is also an outspoken critic of the United States. Unfortunately his comments backfired and united the majority of us behind Mahathir and eventually he pulled us out of the problems that were plaguing our nation then.

My point is that it was just a comment, directed towards our country. Just a comment! If simple comments from the US can have such a strong effect on a population, imagine what actual intervention will do. That may not be the best example. But it is the one I understand most completely, since it happened to my little country.

So we have socio-economic factors and foreign intervention policies as two factors that weigh in strongly to determine whether extremist ideas can take root easily. The final factor that weighs in strongly is the type and amount of anti-west propaganda received by the people.

Propaganda at work

I've made a mention about propaganda and it's similiarity to conditioning in another thread. What propaganda is listened to will also determine which mindset the masses will be locked into. To take the Gore example above again, prior to that comment Mahathir has always criticized the US on it's foreign policies and it's imperialists leanings, always stressing that the US likes to meddle in other's affairs (topic then and now didn't change much, did it? ).

That's why Gore's comments backfired. It was seen as yet another form of American meddling, trying to stir up dissent in our country while it's in a period of turmoil. All sides of the argument seized that as "American Meddling".

That was one form of propaganda, the political type. The other form is religious propaganda, which reached it's peak during the events following the economic crisis.

During the '97-'98 period of turmoil in this country (following the Asian Financial Crisis and the Anwar fiasco) the Islamic Party of Malaysia (PAS) won two additional states in the northern parts of the peninsular.

What do I have to say about PAS? They're an overzealous bunch, and they like to blame jews for everything. The financial crisis had provided them that Jewish scapegoat in the form of George Soros. I don't know if he is a Jew or not, I'm just not a subscriber to the "everything wrong in the world is because of Jews" idea. I believe every culture and every race has their monsters.

At any rate, PAS won those two extra states by taking advantage of the period of turmoil. After the dust settled and their true colours show, they lost it again and now just cling to their traditional Kelantan stronghold.

Now, the point of this story about PAS is to illustrate how a more radical brand of Islam such as the one championed by PAS can gain a popular support if there is turmoil or unrest within the population. PAS didn't last long because while the rest of the nation recovered from the financial crisis, the states under their control actually slipped back a notch or two.

It's just to show why I believe the three factors I've mentioned are the most important factors in determining the success of radical ideas in taking root. With economy being the absolute base of it.



I hope I did not bore you all with these stories. I simply wish to set the record straight that though this is a muslim problem, it is not a problem with Islam. It is a muslim problem but if it is to be helped it must start with muslims in the region affected. It is also key to know why it could gain currency in the regions affected. If we do not know the "why," then we will not know the "how" and we have missed the point of tackling problems at it's root.

I truly believe it is important to acknowledge that if the war on terrorism is to be won by all sides and be trully successful.

its happening cause people are like sheep and can be lured into duality very easily.
You have a puppet master and he plays both sides...its easy to get a crowd stirred up in identifying with any issue. Once the identity they want to protect it, etc. etc.

Beachcoma I think you are really right in that the problem is a problem, mainly in certain areas. We need to find out what the difference between these nations is, in relationship to their own society, aswell as outside influence and determine why it is a problem in some areas, and not others.

Also, your last post was a really good read, and I think all of the things you mentioned were pretty much factors in the anger, fear and hatrid that lead people towards Terrorism.

I really wish I had all the answers, unfortunately I think this will all take alot of hard work to get sorted out.

Thank you, ekul08. Currently I'm trying to look for more information on the socio-political situation in Pakistan and Libya. I've found some interesting leads concerning Pakistan and it's recent spate of violence, but finding articles on the inner workings of Libya is proving a bit more elusive than I anticipated.

Information on economic conditions of any of the countries I've highlighted for research would probably be quite easy to obtain. I'm sure I could get what I need in terms of GDP, income per capita, et. al. from the CIA factbook.

I've no specific data, nor any linkable sources - just a story to recount regarding a conversation I had with someone who was born and raised in Pakistan.

I stumbled into the corner gas station around 1am, as I so often do, aiming for something with sugar and water that would combat the previous 10 or 12 drinks I had at the bar on the opposite corner and hopefully ease the transition from horizontal to vertical the following morning. As I approached the counter to pay for my Gatorade, I got a call on my cell phone from a friend that I didn't feel like talking to. I hit 'ignore' and put the phone back in my pocket and put the drink on the counter top. The middle aged gentlemen behind the counter smirked and said "All you kids and your cellphones." He looked as though his tiredness and boredom were all he had left to battle his jadedness and despondence.

He rang up the gatorade, I handed him my cash, and as he was counting the change out of the drawer he contined, "In my country, very few people have cell phones. Most kids have never even seen a cell phone." I'm usually a bit of a recluse and don't really care to speak to anybody. Though, once I've a few drinks in me, I magically transform into a social butterfly (a very badass, manly butterfly, mind you . So, chipper and interested, I asked "What country are you from?". He told me he had been born and raised in Pakistan, though, moved to America some time before. After getting a degree in business, he traveled around the states a bit and eventually wound up on the right side. The reason why someone with a degree in business is working the graveyard shift at Chevron eludes me, though it seems to be a trend.

Anyhow, to make a long story short, I'll sum the 2 minute Gatorade pit stop turned 2 hour socio-political-theological conversation up as best I can.

He compared the Pakistani government and church in to that of the Church of England or the Roman Catholic Church. He explained to me that the government functioned independent of the church and the church independently of the government, though in reality, it's just as we have here; 2 puppets and one puppet master. He said, and I'll paraphrase as best I can, "The richest and most powerful run the church, and through that money and power, the church owns the government. Through both the government and the church, they own the schools, the media, the press; everything. Naturally, those in power want to remain in power, so they make the schools teach what they want to be taught, and the make the media report what they want to be reported. Much of what the children are taught contains radical innuendos and subtle anti-western propaganda and the media, of course, is no different. So from the moment children enter school they are taught radical, anti-western ideologies. When they go home and watch TV, read the newspaper, whatever, it's right there - all the time."

He also explained to me what a shock it was when he arrived in America. The picture he had been painted didn't compare to what he realized when he arrived - much as, I assume, our (primarily Americans) picture of their culture and landscape is horribly skewed (see the thread on 'pictures of Iran').

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents. I've no opinion of my own aside from what he's told me. The middle aged man at my corner gas station is a better source of information than all of our nations media.

[edit on 27-11-2007 by memoir]

No matter what, some people just feel they have to act like animals. Immigrants should have more respect for the host country.