Do you think Babylon in Revelations might be the U.S. or New York City?

When one reads Revelation, one gets the idea that the USA is not really mentioned at all in the end times scenario, but the more I read Revelation 17, it sounds like "the USA is the new Babylon". Some people think that Revelation was meant to be written for the people in the time it was written. I don't believe that, afterall, revelation means: Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized. So, I think John was revealing the future to us. Why bother with the past when the future is more importance and more relevant?

It has been prophecied by many that in the end times will come a great chastisement, but it is always mentioned in 2 parts. The first part being brought about by man, and the second part being an act of God (supernatural). If man brings about the first part, what could be any more horrible than nuclear holocaust? Once a land is nuked it becomes no longer inhabitable for many years. Billions of folks die and anyone left is radiated, starving, etc. So, in a sense it is completely ruined for good. My guess is that we (USA) are the Babylon in Revelations. We set the trends for the rest of the world, the world looks for us for help when they need it, we are the richest country in the world, many foreigners would love to live here, etc., etc. We are the largest importer of pornography, we glorify violent movies, videos, computer games. What use to be good is now bad, and what was bad is now labeled good.

Osama Bin Laden hgas been talking about an American Hiroshima for some time now. He wants it to be twice as wicked as what we did to Japan in WWII. So think not just 2 nuclear bombs, but maybe 4. The punishment for Babylon is mentioned as two-fold compared to what she has done to other countries.

'I sit enthroned as queen; I am no widow, and I will never know grief.'
This is the USA. We are pompous enough to believe war will never touch us on our land or affect us. We've barely suffered any losses...we don't know war like our friends overseas. It's always over there not here.

"Therefore, her plagues will come in one day, pestilence, grief, and famine; she will be consumed by fire."
The only thing that can destroy us in one day and consume us by fire is a nuclear attack.

"What city could compare with the great city?"
Again, either the USA or New York City.

"In one hour she has been ruined."
Nuclear attack.

"With such force will Babylon the great city be thrown down, and will never be found again."
Nuclear attack.

"No melodies of harpists and musicians, flutists and trumpeters, will ever be heard in you again. No craftsmen in any trade will ever be found in you again. No sound of the millstone will ever be heard in you again."
The city of struggling artists — New York City???



Read this and see if you can't see America being Babylon:

Revelation: Chapter 18

After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth became illumined by his splendor.

He cried out in a mighty voice: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great. She has become a haunt for demons. She is a cage for every unclean spirit, a cage for every unclean bird, (a cage for every unclean) and disgusting (beast).

For all the nations have drunk the wine of her licentious passion. The kings of the earth had intercourse with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her drive for luxury."

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Depart from her, my people, so as not to take part in her sins and receive a share in her plagues, for her sins are piled up to the sky, and God remembers her crimes.

Pay her back as she has paid others. Pay her back double for her deeds. Into her cup pour double what she poured.

To the measure of her boasting and wantonness repay her in torment and grief; for she said to herself, 'I sit enthroned as queen; I am no widow, and I will never know grief.'

Therefore, her plagues will come in one day, pestilence, grief, and famine; she will be consumed by fire. For mighty is the Lord God who judges her."

The kings of the earth who had intercourse with her in their wantonness will weep and mourn over her when they see the smoke of her pyre.

They will keep their distance for fear of the torment inflicted on her, and they will say: "Alas, alas, great city, Babylon, mighty city. In one hour your judgment has come."

The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn for her, because there will be no more markets for their cargo: their cargo of gold, silver, precious stones, and pearls; fine linen, purple silk, and scarlet cloth; fragrant wood of every kind, all articles of ivory and all articles of the most expensive wood, bronze, iron, and marble; cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, and frankincense; wine, olive oil, fine flour, and wheat; cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human beings.

"The fruit you craved has left you. All your luxury and splendor are gone, never again will one find them."

The merchants who deal in these goods, who grew rich from her, will keep their distance for fear of the torment inflicted on her. Weeping and mourning, they cry out: "Alas, alas, great city, wearing fine linen, purple and scarlet, adorned (in) gold, precious stones, and pearls. In one hour this great wealth has been ruined." Every captain of a ship, every traveler at sea, sailors, and seafaring merchants stood at a distance and cried out when they saw the smoke of her pyre, "What city could compare with the great city?"

They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning: "Alas, alas, great city, in which all who had ships at sea grew rich from her wealth. In one hour she has been ruined.

Rejoice over her, heaven, you holy ones, apostles, and prophets. For God has judged your case against her."

A mighty angel picked up a stone like a huge millstone and threw it into the sea and said: "With such force will Babylon the great city be thrown down, and will never be found again.

No melodies of harpists and musicians, flutists and trumpeters, will ever be heard in you again. No craftsmen in any trade will ever be found in you again. No sound of the millstone will ever be heard in you again.

No light from a lamp will ever be seen in you again. No voices of bride and groom will ever be heard in you again. Because your merchants were the great ones of the world, all nations were led astray by your magic potion.

In her was found the blood of prophets and holy ones and all who have been slain on the earth."

yes revelations was written for the future but it was the hebrews under roman laws immediate future it spoke of. also as much as people would like you to think we are not quite the big bad eye sore on the map that everyone would like you to think. we are also not the richest nor is our econonmy the greatest. at this point in time most of our goods are imported from over seas.
they are many countries that are alot more worse then america. many european countries have nudity on there local type stations. most of the drugs in america are imported from other countries and there are alot of
problem with open sex markets not to mention amsterdam where there is rampant legal drug use. trust me america is not the greatest place on earth but there are alot more countries alot worse then we are.

Originally posted by Bobular
it sounds like "the USA is the new Babylon".

Babylon was Rome. Ancient Rome. Not the Rome of now.
Most of Revelations speaks of what was going on in the
time of John. That's the best explaination of Revelation
that I have read. Everyone has an interpretation that
they claim is 'it'. But as far as Babylon goes .. it was 2,000
years ago.

It has been prophecied by many that in the end
times will come a great chastisement,

Your discription sounds like some of the 'Catholic' prophecies
that has come from The Three Days of Darkness, Garabandal
(which was disapproved by the Church), Akita (approved),
Fatima, Medjugorje, Betania (approved) etc. Are these
Chastisement prophecies the ones you are talking about?
I don't ever hear anyone except Catholics use that term, and
then only Catholics who are 'up' on alleged apparitions.

(I've been to Medjugorje and Betania ... that's why I ask).

didn't some hermit in a cave write revelations ?

no worries mate

When I was a child my mother and grandmother used to read me bible stories.I always thought "what city could compare to what they spoke of? I was always told, it doesn't matter what city it is, just learn a lesson from the story. The lesson I learned was to be weary of great luxury (of course this is a common thread in Judeo-Christian beliefs stemming from Hebrew roots as slaves and nomads). One can't help but notice reading this now that it has to be the USA, the great Queen.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
didn't some hermit in a cave write revelations ?

no worries mate

I believe the guy in the cave was the one who discovered the guitar behind the waterfall and pissed the mighty Priests of the Temples of Syrinx off. Just joshin'. Saw your sig. I am a major old school Rush fan. I saw them on their Hemispheres tour back in 1978.


[edit on 9-2-2006 by Bobular]

I was in a heavy rush phase when I joined, actually more or less "rediscovered" them last year. still trying to figure out what a gleaming alloy air car looks like !!!

I thought along the same lines before and expressed it in some digital art.


Whore of Babylon -click image to enlarge (1024x768)


Time will tell, if it is a reality or a fallacy.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Your discription sounds like some of the 'Catholic' prophecies
that has come from The Three Days of Darkness, Garabandal
(which was disapproved by the Church), Akita (approved),
Fatima, Medjugorje, Betania (approved) etc. Are these
Chastisement prophecies the ones you are talking about?

Ya! That would be correct.
But, I do have a friend I grew up with who is now a Franciscan monk and he told me to ignore all Marian Prophecies that the Church didn't condone and accept (Garabandal, Bayside, along with a slew of others). Amazing thing is, is that many of these visionaries were excommunicated from the Church after reporting what they saw. Sometimes it makes me wonder if maybe the Church fathers are jealous that Mary is appearing to the average Joe and not them.

Many people assert that the United States doesn't appear in the Bible. However, the four beasts of Daniel's vision, found in Daniel chapter 7, bear an uncanny resemblance to nations in our modern world, including the United States.

Scripture references:

Daniel 7:1-9 - Daniel's vision of four beasts.

Daniel 7:4

The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.


Explanation:

Daniel's vision in Daniel 7 describes four beasts - a lion with eagle's wings, a bear, a leopard with four heads, and a beast described as "dreadful and terrible". We know from Daniel 7:17 and Daniel 7:23 that these beasts represent kings and kingdoms.

According to Daniel 7:9-12, these kingdoms will exist at the time of the return of Jesus Christ to establish His 1000 year reign of peace. We are rapidly approaching that day.

Consider the lion with eagle's wings. Great Britain's official animal symbol is the lion. Some of Britain's flags have had the image of the lion. It is common to see Britain referred to as a lion in news articles and political cartoons. The entry for "lion" in Webster's Third New International Dictionary states that the lion is the symbol of Great Britain.

Now consider the eagle's wings. Take a look at the reverse side of the United States' one-dollar bill. On the great seal of the United States you will find the image of an eagle. It is common knowledge that the eagle is the national bird of the United States and that its image is repeatedly used in the news media to represent the United States.

Interestingly, in Daniel's vision, we see the eagle's wings coming out of the lion. Here we have a clear depiction of the United States growing out of her mother country, Great Britain.

God in his foreknowledge and wisdom saw the nations that would exist at the time of His return. In His love, He gave Daniel a vision so that we might have understanding in these last days and prepare ourselves for His soon return.

So with this in mind, America is not Babylon. This place does a very good job of telling you who it is though: www.wayoflife.org...


[edit on 9/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus So with this in mind, America is not Babylon. This place does a very good job of telling you who it is though: www.wayoflife.org...[edit on 9/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

You have some very interesting points and I went to the link you posted, but I'm not convinced.

Why?

I do know that most of the Protestant denominations believe it is Rome/the Vatican/the city of 7 hills. That the antichrist will end up being a Pope. Did you know that the Vatican is not built on any of the 7 hills? Rome, yes, but not the Vatican. These are the hills: The original city of Romulus was built upon Palatine Hill (#1). The other hills are the Capitoline,(#2) Quirinal, (#3) Viminal,(#4) Esquiline,(#5) Caelian,(#6) and Aventine (#7). The vatican sits on none of these. It's a common fallacy (a lie found all over the 'net)! I've been to Rome, trust me.

I don't see the Vatican as a great fornicator. In fact, they're the opposite. Read about the Pope's stance on sexuality. He preaches devout celibacy and chastity to those unmarried.

We have the world beat in unmarried pregnancies, drug addiction, abortions, homosexual epicenters (New York & LA), the invention of the internet (which gave everybody in the world access to pornography at the touch of a button - the vast majority of porn sites on the net are USA-based)

From Rev. 17:
"The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." - The USA is a way bigger melting pot of nationalities than is Rome. We have every freaking nationality and dialect under the sun living here.

"that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" - everybody calls us the world police

Gosh! Who knows? Maybe you're right. I have also read in catholic prophecy that when the Pope flees Rome (because of it's impending destruction), that the 2nd part of the chastisement will follow shortly.

In my opinion it's gonna be a comet!

Originally posted by Bobular

Originally posted by OneGodJesus So with this in mind, America is not Babylon. This place does a very good job of telling you who it is though: www.wayoflife.org...[edit on 9/2/06 by OneGodJesus]

You have some very interesting points and I went to the link you posted, but I'm not convinced.

Why?

I do know that most of the Protestant denominations believe it is Rome/the Vatican/the city of 7 hills. That the antichrist will end up being a Pope. Did you know that the Vatican is not built on any of the 7 hills? Rome, yes, but not the Vatican. These are the hills: The original city of Romulus was built upon Palatine Hill (#1). The other hills are the Capitoline,(#2) Quirinal, (#3) Viminal,(#4) Esquiline,(#5) Caelian,(#6) and Aventine (#7). The vatican sits on none of these. It's a common fallacy (a lie found all over the 'net)! I've been to Rome, trust me.

I don't see the Vatican as a great fornicator. In fact, they're the opposite. Read about the Pope's stance on sexuality. He preaches devout celibacy and chastity to those unmarried.

We have the world beat in unmarried pregnancies, drug addiction, abortions, homosexual epicenters (New York & LA), the invention of the internet (which gave everybody in the world access to pornography at the touch of a button - the vast majority of porn sites on the net are USA-based)

From Rev. 17:
"The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." - The USA is a way bigger melting pot of nationalities than is Rome. We have every freaking nationality and dialect under the sun living here.

"that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" - everybody calls us the world police

Gosh! Who knows? Maybe you're right. I have also read in catholic prophecy that when the Pope flees Rome (because of it's impending destruction), that the 2nd part of the chastisement will follow shortly.

In my opinion it's gonna be a comet!

What a great place we'd be in if only these things do not come to pass. But like my dad always said "life sometimes hands you a big crap sandwich and you gotta take a bite", I guess we'll know what is correct and what is not before too long according to some folks timeline of events about to take place. I have read that China will start a war that will kill 1/3 of mankind, that might be possible but only if Taiwan fires up I think. They don't really seem to be chomping at the bit though. I have also read that we will be raptured away before it happens. I don't really subscribe to this though, God doesn't work that way I think. He said he'd make a way of escape through the temptation not before it even happens. Like the whole valley of the shadow of death thing, it never says that you never entered it only that He'd be with you when you were there. Ever see Everest with trees...things grow real good in the vallies and that is where we grow too. So I don't see Him taking us out before a certain time has passed during the seven years. Dunno, as I am not as knowledgable as I'd like in this area. It fascinates me but not to the point of distraction from the real work He has me doing. Like typing at this great forum....lol. Just kidding for those overlords watching and recording my every line for quotes to hack me with...

Originally posted by Bobular
he told me to ignore all Marian Prophecies that the Church didn't condone and accept ... maybe the Church fathers are jealous that Mary is appearing
to the average Joe and not them.

He gave you good advice. Bayside is condemned by the church for
good reason. The amount of occult and ufology mixed in with a
sprinkling of Catholicism make it a definate 'stay away' from.
Garabandal has been declared by the church to be 'not of supernatural
origin' on three occassions. I have read through the Garabandal
information extensively. It is my PERSONAL opinon that it is
supernatural ... demonic. (u2u if you want more chat on this).
Conyers Georgia is strange. I've been there and read what was
coming out of there. It's not of God. It's just Nancy creating
the 'visions' in her own mind. I got some supernatural pictures
there ... so there are definately supernatural things going on ...
(probably NOT heavenly) but if you read her 'messages' they
contradict each other and the 'prophecy' ones have all been wrong.

Medjugorje was wonderful. It was deeply spiritual for me and I
have supernatural pictures as well as supernatural experiences
that I could report. (nature behaving in such a way that it was
impossible without spiritual interaction). Betania (Venezuela)
was awful. The apparition site was okay. It's just that we
stayed in Caracus for 5 days and there was a water strike
going on at the time. It was HOT, LOUD, and I was dirty and
thirsty the whole time. You have to go with a penitential
spirit if you go to Betania. ugh.

I don't think Rome is jealous. I think it's VERY smart in being careful.
I've seen too many whackos who think they hear voices and see
heavenly visions .... Rome is exactly right. These things have to be
carefully looked at and taken very slowly.

Anyways .. your 'chastisement' word and having it come in two
different ways was the tip off! My advice (not that you asked)
read 'The Three Days of Darkness'. Very interesting.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
didn't some hermit in a cave write revelations ?
no worries mate

Yes, and further ....

He was an old man, not eatting well or taking care of himself.
He was in exile, which is a stress on the body and mind.
He had survived assassination attemps, which are stress'.
He watched his friends all assassinated, which is more stress.

Dementia? Stress induced psychological problems?
Or true visions from God? Hey ... that was 2,000 years
ago. There is no way to know for sure. (until the world
ends that is)

You guys are all speakin about craziness.rJohn was on a drug trip when he wrote this stuff. the proof is all there. If you want to flee the antichrist send me all your money and i'll take care of you.

Nostradamus - The New City

Century 1, Quatrain 24
The new city contemplating a condemnation,
The bird of prey offers itself to the heavens.
After victory pardon to the captives,
Cremona and Mantua will have suffered great evils.

Century 1, Quatrain 87
Earth-shaking fire from the center of the earth.
Will cause the towers around the New City to shake,
Two great rocks for a long time will make war,
And then Arethusa will color a new river red.

Century 6, Quatrain 97
At forty-five degrees, the sky will burn,
Fire approaches the great new city,
Immediately a huge, scattered flame leaps up
When they want to have verification from the Normans.

Century 9, Quatrain 92
The king will want to enter the new city,
Through its enemies they will come to subdue it
Captives liberated to speak and act falsely,
King to be outside, he will keep far from the enemy.

Century 10, Quatrain 49
Garden of the world near the new city,
In the path of the hollow mountains,
It will be seized and plunged into the Vat,
Drinking by force the waters poisoned by sulfur.

www.crystalinks.com...


perhaps the city will burn......perhaps


*fire 45 degrees into the sky?




[edit on 9-2-2006 by spearhead]

[edit on 9-2-2006 by spearhead]

ABOUT BABYLON Being Iraq not Rome or America

I am not too sure the destruction of Babylon being America, I do think America is the Lion with Eagles wings in the book of Daniel as representing Britain and America and the plucking of the wings could signify a fall out of British ties with America during the end times. ( America just snubbed briton over £1billion over fighter jets)

There is a book called ‘American Prophecies’ by Michael D. Evans (also recommended William R. Koenig Eye to Eye).

One does not have to agree with everything but every Christian denomination has its plus points even Jehovah Witnesses, that of course I am not one myself.

Anyway Babylon as mentioned in Genesis is where the Garden of Eden is placed with the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. So as no other nation has a similar history to the names of these rivers I would doubt any other location except for modern day Iraq being Babylon as originally intended. its about going full circle. It will not take long before it has all the traits of what America has today, maybe be even more extreme in comparison to and be a country, with democracy filled with Arabs, new foreigners, tourists and world wide trade deals with the worlds economy balancing in its oil reserves created from the pure ancient vegetation of Eden.

Babylon/Iraq in my opinion but still hidden like a flower waiting to blossom. Will dams be built at the rivers of Babylon to make way for Armageddon? Water could be an issue due to factories and hygene purposes if its gets scarce and cities grow.

So as these regions are full of evil wondering fallen angels and evil spirits. The once was gateway of paradise is used like a portal for evil to enter. As you saw in the news Saddam Hussein used the Iraqi prisons for torture and then when the American troops used them they did the same. Why I wonder? The main reason I guess is demonic activity and the influence on the people there in the same area. President G W Bush had them demolished or wanted them demolished, maybe he knew that was the reason for the evil in the area (or in the air) was at hand as some of the soldiers influenced by this did not know why they even thought about doing these humiliating actions to the Iraqi prisoners. Listen to their accounts they seem oblivious of their nature as if it was not them but a delusion.

If evil forces are at work no wonder the weapon inspectors were deceived. It makes me wonder that the middle east region without the use of the Holy Spirit, harbours evil entities and demon possessed suicide bombers afford to die only for the that demons to repeatedly use the next person as a puppet. Maybe that is why it gets destroyed finally with all its fallen angels and demons. Babylon I believe is Iraq and not America it could be a state owned American or UN country if no one can sort it out. It might use the dollar as its currency or the mark of the beast ID chips to sort out the corruption.

The world will not end within the next 7 years and when people think its round the corner and realise 20 years later it never happened they will loose a lot of followers maybe Christ also. Babylon I think in Revelation18 is about Iraq. Iraq will be rebuilt have its oil milked out like a prostitute accepting the wealth of the nations and grow in trade, discover ancient paganisms and artefacts become an international success have many foreigners working there unlike its never imagined.
Also Become the richest city (maybe not nation) in the world because the worlds nations will all want to have a hand in there. Maybe have the new world trade centre in Iraq as the centre of creation the Garden of Eden used to be.

But do not forget sometimes God talks in 3s and he explains things in 3s and Babylon is a reflection of the world cities yes but also in the literal sense that is why we can get confused. We have to look at things from 3 perspectives in prophecy especially, the symbolism the spiritual and the literal sense and some how separate it that way. But not add one tone throughout but see the layers, as God who writes would do as an author.

Seventh Day Adventists see it from a spiritual perspective but that is not the single tone God uses, When he is specific read it as specific when he symbolises he’ll explain differently. I find the mark of beast explanation is a warning to mankind and not some spiritual symbol God leaves but a blatant clue for our safety net as future evidence for use to witness.

God will not write without revelations thats the point of it. By the time the Mark of the Beast comes people will be so dessolite of this knowlege that it has the power to fullfil and take place.


[edit on 9-2-2006 by The time lord]

Wow! Cool theory Time Lord!
I would have never guessed Iraq in a million years.
So many options....
...I don't know though, if Iraq got taken out.....I'm not trying to sound insensitive here, but, I don't think the world would miss it and mourn.

"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn for her, because there will be no more markets for their cargo" – That means them selling to us. We're importing (we import everything - especially from China). Iraq exports oil.

"The fruit you craved has left you. All your luxury and splendor are gone, never again will one find them." – We are the luxury capital of the world. We Americans and our consumerism, and materialism. And our beautiful country in all it's splendor - we have a dash of everything; huge mountain ranges, desert, forests, grasslands, tropical locales, the Grand Canyon, etc.

"The merchants who deal in these goods, who grew rich from her, will keep their distance for fear of the torment inflicted on her." – No one will come to our rescue after we're nuked for fear of radiation and retaliation by our attackers (being nuked themselves).

"Every captain of a ship, every traveler at sea, sailors, and seafaring merchants stood at a distance and cried out when they saw the smoke of her pyre, "What city could compare with the great city?" – How many boats of the world are hanging around the coast of Iraq. The United States has 2 gigantic oceans surrounding it; and a gulf.

"With such force will Babylon the great city be thrown down, and will never be found again."
- Still not sure if this literally means city or country.

"No melodies of harpists and musicians, flutists and trumpeters, will ever be heard in you again. No craftsmen in any trade will ever be found in you again. No sound of the millstone will ever be heard in you again." - Again, New York City, every starving artist who wants to make it big and famous heads to the Big Apple at some point. This isn't Iraq at all. You play the wrong kinda music over there and they'll cut your hands off (or ears). Craftsmen, again, New York has the best designers in the world. Iraq? No way.

"Because your merchants were the great ones of the world, all nations were led astray by your magic potion." - We are the great merchants of the world. Everybody wants what the USA has. And that "want" seduces everyone like a drug. This is why we currently can't keep the illegal immigrant Mexicans out.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by Bobular]

There was an ancient city of Babylon. What would be the purpose of Revelations changing it to NY, Rome, Idalou, texas or anywhere else.
If the Word is the literal WORD of GOD; stop interpreting it to fit your personal adgenda.

Originally posted by whaaa
There was an ancient city of Babylon. What would be the purpose of Revelations changing it to NY, Rome, Idalou, texas or anywhere else.
If the Word is the literal WORD of GOD; stop interpreting it to fit your personal adgenda.

There are 2 Babylons referred to in the New Testament.
Not everything is literal in the Bible, sometimes it's metaphoric, sometimes it's cryptic, and yes, sometimes it's literal. In the way that Babylon is referred to in Revelation it alludes to the end of man's reign on earth, as in "the end" as we know it to be. Since there is no current city on our globe called Babylon, I hypothesize that Babylon in Revelations is a metaphor (comparing it to the old original Babylon) of a current world city. New York seems to fit this description IMHO, but it's only IMHO. Not yours obviously!

You need to do some reading.
I have no agenda at all. This is pure speculation...ya know, like, my wild guess?????
I thought that's what forums like this were for.
Go away. Troll.