Intelligent Design Is Just As Valid A Theory As Evolutionism

Originally posted by DevinS
THERE IS NO DATA!!!!!!!! ID is BS!!!!!!!

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

Anyways, ID proof isn't proof, it's

"Well we killed this many people to prove Earth was flat, then killed this many to prove it was center of the universe, so how many do we have to kill to prove ID?"

Here's one...

How many proponents of Intelligent Design do Evolutionists have to kill in order to prove that hydrogen molecules can appear by accident in a vacuum of space?



Sorry...just had to get that out of my system.

Keep up the good work Rren.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Here's one...

How many proponents of Intelligent Design do Evolutionists have to kill in order to prove that hydrogen molecules can appear by accident in a vacuum of space?

Sorry...just had to get that out of my system.

Keep up the good work Rren.

likewise. that's not as far fetched as some actual higher power IDer designing a hydrogen molecule. for that to be done the actual vacuum of space would have to be designed and programmed. but before that the actual concept of a vacuum and space had to be designed and before that the higher Power IDer was all alone floating around in nothingness with ideas of different designs of lifeforms and whatnot... yeah that's believable.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
likewise. that's not as far fetched as some actual higher power IDer designing a hydrogen molecule.

Actually, it is more far fetched to have a hydrogen molecule appear by accident in a vacuum of space than it is for an Intelligent Designer to have manifested it with the same Light that many with a Gift of Healing channel today.

shaunybaby,

Well, that's basically going of of what Rren hold's belief in, but he has admitted that his own personal religous belief's influence his concept of the designer. While it does seem abit odd that there can be a designer that has existed in absolute nothingness, it's really no different then saying everything came out of absolute nothingness.

Although that aspect can be debated as we've never seen nor experience anything like absolute nothingness. So we can't just assume that such a thing exist's or ever existed. Even the vast expanse between galaxies are filled with quantum fluctuations bringing virtual particle's in and out of existence from seemingly nothing. There must be something there at a more fundamental level that we're just unable to look at with our current tools.

If ET is used as the designer for life on earth, then we're left with the question of who designed ET. If we use God as the designer, then we're left with the question if everything complex require's a designer then god would had to have been designed himself.

From my understanding it's all nothing more then philosophical debating and isn't going to get anywhere conclusive. If anything it'll put more drive behind scientific discoveries and just furthur the gap between belief in an IDer and what is real.

Originally posted by Prot0n
There must be something there at a more fundamental level that we're just unable to look at with our current tools.

That something is The Light which is often reported by Near Death Experiencers. It transcends the physical spectrum of energy and works off of a completely different set of principles. It cannot be directly measured in a laboratory but is as real to those on the Other Side as any physical object is to us here

Originally posted by Prot0n
If ET is used as the designer for life on earth, then we're left with the question of who designed ET. If we use God as the designer, then we're left with the question if everything complex require's a designer then god would had to have been designed himself.

Good reasoning.

But, however much Rren and the rest of these IDers that don't actually think the IDer is a 'God', they still believe in a 'higher power'. The one thing they have in common with the belief in an IDer is that with both you come to the point:

'Who created God'. Or in Rren's case, 'who created the higher power IDer'.

The problem here is that both either 'created' or 'designed and created' life. However, 'nothing' in all cases ever has to 'create' these gods or higher power IDer.

The only reason you can't have something create God or the higher power IDer, is that then what created the thing that created God and the higher power IDer, then what created the thing that created the creator of God and the higher power IDer... so it's just easier to say 'nothing' created them...otherwise you'd end up sound silly.

Well what do you think is more complex, a hydrogen atom, or an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent entity?

If, and I’m sure most people would agree with me here, the hydrogen atom is simpler, then wouldn’t it be much less far fetched for it to just appear then for such a powerful entity to just happen.

That something is The Light which is often reported by Near Death Experiencers. It transcends the physical spectrum of energy and works off of a completely different set of principles. It cannot be directly measured in a laboratory but is as real to those on the Other Side as any physical object is to us here

Well, that's really more of a philosophical argument with religous belief's in an afterlife. We don't know if such a realm exist's proof positive untill we die. Cant necessarily rule it out per se, but we also can't claim to know for a fact without direct evidence for it.

The only reason you can't have something create God or the higher power IDer, is that then what created the thing that created God and the higher power IDer, then what created the thing that created the creator of God and the higher power IDer... so it's just easier to say 'nothing' created them...otherwise you'd end up sound silly.

This is true, which is possibly ID's biggest downfall. If we're to complex in nature and need to have been designed then in some repect's the designer would or might be more complex then we are as we're not able to do such a complex action of designing a universe or life within one.

If, and I’m sure most people would agree with me here, the hydrogen atom is simpler, then wouldn’t it be much less far fetched for it to just appear then for such a powerful entity to just happen.

This is a good point if you think about it. Two beams of laser's at extreme energies can be used to create matter, but we've never seen energy create complex life forms capable of having supernatural power's or infinite knowledge. But this is pre-assuming the designer is god, but there's still the possibility of ET being the designer (of atleast life).

Originally posted by Lethys
Well what do you think is more complex, a hydrogen atom, or an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent entity?

It is a logical conclusion that since the Universe is not endless, just extremely large, then the Intelligent Designer was not omniscient, omnipotent, or infinite, just very advanced

Spiritual development being all a matter of degree.

Originally posted by Lethys
If, and I’m sure most people would agree with me here, the hydrogen atom is simpler, then wouldn’t it be much less far fetched for it to just appear then for such a powerful entity to just happen.

For a hydrogen molecule to appear in a vacuum of space by accident is much less probable than an item of matter being manifested by discarnate consciousness in The Light. You guys keep missing/avoiding The Light facet to the creation issue. The manifestation of small items of matter have been reported throughout history among those who have had a Gift of Manifestation.

The prophet Jesus/Issa comes to mind - with the creation of food, as well as the changing of water into wine at a wedding.

Then there is Sai Baba of India who has been documented to manifest many small objects since the 1940s, e.g., hot food, various forms of jewelry, ash and candy.

Another example is what Paramahansa Yogananda, author of Autobiography of a Yogi espoused. He said that he knew of someone who could manifest flowers but that that was not indicative of spiritual attainment.

The spiritual attainment issue notwithstanding, the ability to manifest matter on a small scale must have a discarnate consciousness directing it to happen. The energy for the manifestation is and always has been The Light

IMHO, the Intelligent Designer used The Light in order to come into existence and also to manifest The Big Bang

Originally posted by Prot0n
We don't know if such a realm exist's proof positive untill we die. Cant necessarily rule it out per se, but we also can't claim to know for a fact without direct evidence for it.

You want physical evidence for something that isn't physical?



There is an abundance of testimonial evidence of not only life after death, but life before birth and also The Light in the Spirit.

It is a logical conclusion that since the Universe is not endless, just extremely large, then the Intelligent Designer was not omniscient, omnipotent, or infinite, just very advanced

Omnipotent or just advanced, the point still stands that it would be much more complex then a hydrogen atom. I used omnipotent since that is how most Christians view their god.

For a hydrogen molecule to appear in a vacuum of space by accident is much less probable than an item of matter being manifested by discarnate consciousness in The Light.

This isn’t an argument on which way a hydrogen atom is more likely to be produced, it’s about which is more likely to just spontaneously come into existence, the atom or the creator. The level of power attributed to the creator, the light, or whatever is still much more complex then a hydrogen atom.

The manifestation of small items of matter have been reported throughout history among those who have had a Gift of Manifestation.

Reported yes, but just because someone says something happened doesn’t mean it happened. You need more then testimonials to prove something.

There is an abundance of testimonial evidence of not only life after death, but life before birth and also The Light in the Spirit.

Those testimonials about the light don’t really say much about what it is, assuming it even exists. I’ve read many accounts of near death experiences and others and they don’t really provide much explanation about the light, they can only describe what it looked like and how it made them feel.

[edit on 23-3-2006 by Lethys]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The prophet Jesus/Issa comes to mind - with the creation of food, as well as the changing of water into wine at a wedding.

Then there is Sai Baba of India who has been documented to manifest many small objects since the 1940s, e.g., hot food, various forms of jewelry, ash and candy.

I know what you mean, my uncle used to pull a 50p coin from my ear. One time he even pulled a kinder egg from there! He can also manifest things from thin air, it's great isn't it!

Originally posted by Lethys
Omnipotent or just advanced, the point still stands that it would be much more complex then a hydrogen atom. I used omnipotent since that is how most Christians view their god.

I got the point and am not a Christian.

For a hydrogen molecule to appear in a vacuum of space by accident is much less probable than an item of matter being manifested by discarnate consciousness in The Light.

Originally posted by Lethys
This isn’t an argument on which way a hydrogen atom is more likely to be produced, it’s about which is more likely to just spontaneously come into existence, the atom or the creator. The level of power attributed to the creator, the light, or whatever is still much more complex then a hydrogen atom.

The Light is what enables both to come into existence, but matter must be directed into reality from discarnate consciousness. Matter cannot will itself into existence - even with The Light.

The manifestation of small items of matter have been reported throughout history among those who have had a Gift of Manifestation.

Originally posted by Lethys
Reported yes, but just because someone says something happened doesn’t mean it happened. You need more then testimonials to prove something.

Oh, there are a great deal of testimonials available. It is just that many biased people won't accept them.

Originally posted by Lethys
Those testimonials about the light don’t really say much about what it is, assuming it even exists. I’ve read many accounts of near death experiences and others and they don’t really provide much explanation about the light, they can only describe what it looked like and how it made them feel.

Well, that's a start anyway.

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The prophet Jesus/Issa comes to mind - with the creation of food, as well as the changing of water into wine at a wedding.

Then there is Sai Baba of India who has been documented to manifest many small objects since the 1940s, e.g., hot food, various forms of jewelry, ash and candy.

I know what you mean, my uncle used to pull a 50p coin from my ear. One time he even pulled a kinder egg from there! He can also manifest things from thin air, it's great isn't it!

Yeah...how about getting your uncle to make you win a scratch ticket lottery for $1600?

David Blaine

Or getting him to accurately pick winning lottery numbers?

Criss Angel

Or getting him to heal many people daily of incurable afflictions?

John of God

Or have him create food (and sometimes jewelry) - without any props - for hundreds of people?

Sai Baba

You and a number of others in this thread are ABSOLUTELY CLUELESS as to what really goes on because you are so BLINDSIDED by your PREJUDICE and IGNORANCE that you can't see the forest for the trees

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Yeah...how about getting your uncle to make you win a scratch ticket lottery for $1600?

David Blaine

David blaine is an 'illusion artist'.

I've seen a magician...paul mckenna, and he's done a trick where a playing card ends up being forced through a window on a car or shop, and it ends up on the other side. it doesn't mean he literally can push things through a window without smashing them...it's called 'magic' and is an illusion.

Or getting him to accurately pick winning lottery numbers?

Criss Angel

if that was true, he'd win the jackpot every week. i doubt that is the case.

Or getting him to heal many people daily of incurable afflictions?

John of God

ohright you mean like how those televangelists and the shows they put on when they have their big rallies to cure people with the 'power' or the lord? you mean how little kids die of diseases like diabetis because their parents won't let them have medical treatment?

Or have him create food (and sometimes jewelry) - without any props - for hundreds of people?

Sai Baba

i've seen magician create stuff from nothing, and i can see no props on them either. you seem to attribute some sort of miracle with nothing but magic and ilussion.

You and a number of others in this thread are ABSOLUTELY CLUELESS as to what really goes on because you are so BLINDSIDED by your PREJUDICE and IGNORANCE that you can't see the forest for the trees

oh i'm blind because david blain really does levitate. just like david copperfield really did make the statue of liberty dissapear and walk through the wall of china. i guess i really do have coins growing in my ears and kinder eggs. and because you[ say some guy can pick winning lottery number it has to be true. if anyone is ignorant it;s you. you see one thing an automattically take it as truth? i would be ignorant if i took your word for it. if anyone is ignorant here it's you. you're a hypocrite and you won't even know it.

There is an abundance of testimonial evidence of not only life after death, but life before birth and also The Light in the Spirit.

The light isn't described as the same light your talking about. Your giving new definition to the light at the end of the tunnel. NDEs are called Near Death for a reason. The brain isn't fully dead. Also, ketamine produce's the same experience's durring an NDE as well, including the OOBE. It could be possible that something is going on at the time of death to protect the mind from such a traumatic experience. It's not unusual for the mind to find some sort of protective mechanism against traumatic experience's.

The Light is what enables both to come into existence, but matter must be directed into reality from discarnate consciousness. Matter cannot will itself into existence - even with The Light.

We've never, not once peeked at what existed prior to the universe. Your light is just an opinion, nor is there any evidence that matter can't come into existance without some form of consciousness 'willing' it to exist. This is merely philosophical with abit of religous bias thrown in.

David Blaine - Illusionist and pretty damn good one at that.

Criss Angel - Illusionist as well, I even watched him get hit by a car going through a brick wall and walked away from it without serious injury. He explains briefly how he did it.

John of God - There are many people who've claimed to do the same thing in almost the same way. They even have 'testimonials' as well. Turned out they were frauds. He also doesn't fully do it for free, he get's people to buy certain herbs ... which his clinic just happen's to sell. Rake's in a good $400,000 a year.

Sai Baba - you mean molester Baba?

You and a number of others in this thread are ABSOLUTELY CLUELESS as to what really goes on because you are so BLINDSIDED by your PREJUDICE and IGNORANCE that you can't see the forest for the trees

There are some people who've joined cult's and even after the cult master was arrested for whatever crime he was commiting within the cult, be it drug's or sexual, some of the people in that cult still believed and had faith in him. They couldn't see past their faith and look at what was really there. I believe they also claimed that other people accusing the cult master of these crime's were ignorant and prejudice.

There is an abundance of testimonial evidence of not only life after death, but life before birth and also The Light in the Spirit.

Sure there's testimonial evidence of people being abducted by aliens...doesn't mean we have to take their word for it.

I think there's a certain 'life' before birth, but not so much a concious one that you'll remember it when you're 50. For example if you play a certain song the baby might kick, or eat a certain food...normally spicy, again the baby might kick.

The light isn't described as the same light your talking about. Your giving new definition to the light at the end of the tunnel. NDEs are called Near Death for a reason. The brain isn't fully dead. Also, ketamine produce's the same experience's durring an NDE as well, including the OOBE. It could be possible that something is going on at the time of death to protect the mind from such a traumatic experience. It's not unusual for the mind to find some sort of protective mechanism against traumatic experience's.

Alot of people can't bare to watch an animal eat another, like on those nature shows. However, it is believed or just thought that animal's brians do sort of switch off during those last traumatic minutes. You'll always see a point at which the prey 'gives up', not neccesarily anywhere close to being dead, but it just 'gives up' it's more likely the brain shutting down.

I've seen a film where they killed themselves for a given period of time, and then revived each other. I forgot what it was called though. I think it had kevin bacon in...

Anyways, NDEs seem more fantasy with the light at the end of the tunnel, as much as being abducted by aliens is fantasy. Some people want and believe these things so much that they will convince themselves that they saw a light at the end of the tunnel, or were literally abducted by aliens and proded with metallic instruments.

Alot of people can't bare to watch an animal eat another, like on those nature shows. However, it is believed or just thought that animal's brians do sort of switch off during those last traumatic minutes. You'll always see a point at which the prey 'gives up', not neccesarily anywhere close to being dead, but it just 'gives up' it's more likely the brain shutting down.

The brain is an awsome mysterious and complex organ, one we've yet to fully understand how it works.

I've seen a film where they killed themselves for a given period of time, and then revived each other. I forgot what it was called though. I think it had kevin bacon in...

Flatliners I think? Awsome film though.

Anyways, NDEs seem more fantasy with the light at the end of the tunnel, as much as being abducted by aliens is fantasy. Some people want and believe these things so much that they will convince themselves that they saw a light at the end of the tunnel, or were literally abducted by aliens and proded with metallic instruments.

There have been experiments done where the subject's head is placed within an electromagnetic field, after the experiment the subject depending on his belief would either claim to have seen heaven, had an OOBE or been abducted by aliens. Also, if I'm not mistaken NDE report's have changed through out history and from culture to culture purely based upon cultural or personal belief's and not all NDEs are the same exact experience between any two people. If there really was some sort of afterlife as is described by any religion, all reports should paint the same picture. There have also been studies where just a few small amount of people had actually reported the NDE experience whereas the majority don't. And some who've had an NDE claim it wasn't real or didn't believe it was real. Basically, from our understanding so far it appears to be a neurological mechanism used by the brain to protect the mind from the traumatic experience of death or dying.

shaunybaby,

Can you name us one person who you have found through your research has a Gift of Healing and/or Telekinesis?

I'd be willing to bet that you can't simply because you have yet to learn that these things exist.

You are therefore making your appraisal out of prejudice and ignorance, not out of years of research and analysis.

There is an abundance of testimonial evidence of not only life after death, but life before birth and also The Light in the Spirit.

Originally posted by Prot0n
The light isn't described as the same light your talking about. Your giving new definition to the light at the end of the tunnel. NDEs are called Near Death for a reason. The brain isn't fully dead. Also, ketamine produce's the same experience's durring an NDE as well, including the OOBE. It could be possible that something is going on at the time of death to protect the mind from such a traumatic experience. It's not unusual for the mind to find some sort of protective mechanism against traumatic experience's.

People Have NDE's While Brain Dead

People See Verifiable Events While Out Of The Body

Some People Have Been Dead For Several Days

The Light is what enables both to come into existence, but matter must be directed into reality from discarnate consciousness. Matter cannot will itself into existence - even with The Light.

Originally posted by Prot0n
We've never, not once peeked at what existed prior to the universe. Your light is just an opinion, nor is there any evidence that matter can't come into existance without some form of consciousness 'willing' it to exist. This is merely philosophical with abit of religous bias thrown in.

Quantam Physics Supports NDE Concepts