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A question for Catholics...

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posted on Feb, 7 2006 @ 01:20 PM
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Say that the Catholic Church urged you to overthrow your respective governments, would you do it?
I'm unsure if I would.




posted on Feb, 7 2006 @ 10:36 PM
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The Church would never do that because one of the laws covered under the 10 commandments means to obey the laws of your government. In the Catholic Catechism it's covered under the Fourth Commandment: Love Thy Neighbor (the main objectives being honor your parents, your family, people in legitimate positions of authority, love for your country, human life, human sexuality, the property of others, and the truth.)



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 02:59 AM
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I see, but what if the governments in question were repressive and caused human suffering. Would it not be the duty of the Catholic Church to help stop it?



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 06:39 AM
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If anything the Catholic Church would make it's opinion known to that government; if it thinks it's being unfair to it's people. The Pope would address them asking them to change in favor of goodness and peace. But aside from that if the government didn't change, we as Catholics would be asked to pray to God to "deal" with our repressive government, in hopes that it might change. That's pretty much it. The Church wouldn't meddle any further.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 07:28 AM
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I wouldnt.

I suppose we would seek guidance from the likes of the pope.

Also i personally believe that catholic views would never become so fanatical.

I say that being an ex soldier who has worked in northern ireland like but i hope you get my drift



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 07:35 AM
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90% of American Catholics don't listen to the pope on issues as
simple as birth control. Yes, that's right. 90%.

Why on earth would they listen to something as big as overthrowing
a government when they don't even listen to the small stuff?

1 - The Vatican wouldn't say to do it.
2 - No one would listen even if they did say it.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by Bobular
In the Catholic Catechism it's covered under the Fourth Commandment: Love Thy Neighbor (the main objectives being honor your parents, your family, people in legitimate positions of authority, love for your country, human life, human sexuality, the property of others, and the truth.)


I believe The 4th commandment is you shall not break the Sabbath. I think you're refering to the 5th You shall not dishonor your parents yadayada blah blah.

Sorry for being pedantic.

Lest we not forget how Pope Clement conspired with King Philip to wipe out the Knight's Templar who at the time had huge political and banking power.

All because King Phil didn't want to pay his debts, I believe it was more than that for wiping out nearly the whole organistation. Approx 7000 people at that time.

Would this not be classed as a similar act?



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by MrDog
I believe The 4th commandment is you shall not break the Sabbath.


The protestants have a different numbering of the commandments.
It has been discussed in BTS religion forum about Martin Luther
renumbering and rearranging the commandments.

The Catholic 4th Commandment is 'Honor your Father and Mother'

Catholic Ten Commandments - (from the Children's Catechism)

1 - I am the Lord they God; thou shalt not have strange gods before Me.
2 - Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3 - Remember thou keep holy the Lord's day.
4 - Honor they father and thy mother.
5 - Thou shalt not kill.
6 - Thou shalt not commit adultery
7 - Thou shalt not steal
8 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (lie)
9 - Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife.
10 - Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's goods.

The first three are about God. The next 7 are about people.
The 'God' ones are about not worshipping other Gods or idols,
saying his name with respect and keeping the sabbath.
The last 7 'people' ones are how to behave with others
here on earth.



[edit on 2/8/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by MrDog
Lest we not forget how Pope Clement conspired with King Philip to wipe out the Knight's Templar ..... Would this not be classed as a similar act?


That was 700 years ago. The question was .. would YOU overthrow
a government if the Vatican asked. Today. Now. With today's
sociology and politics in play.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:13 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan


The protestants have a different numbering of the commandments.
It has been discussed in BTS religion forum about Martin Luther
renumbering and rearranging the commandments.

The Catholic 4th Commandment is 'Honor your Father and Mother'

[edit on 2/8/2006 by FlyersFan]


I didn't realise that. I owe you an apology Bobular. Sorry.


Thanks for pointing that out to me Flyersfan



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
That was 700 years ago. The question was .. would YOU overthrow
a government if the Vatican asked. Today. Now. With today's
sociology and politics in play.



Well my decision would come down to why they would want us too. If it was to overthrow an opressive government for example. I'm not catholic as you've probably guessed with the commandment thing. However if needs must and the Vatican asked nicely for help. Yeah probably I'd lend a hand. Just as long as they let the people decide after on the course of their country and not be controlled by the church.

At the end of the day they wouldn't ask though, would they. It would be unchristian like.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by MrDog
At the end of the day they wouldn't ask though, would they.


Nope. They wouldn't ask.

And even if they did .. they'd get
no response. Like I said ... Catholics in America don't even
listen to the small stuff like 'no birth control' (google onanism
for an explaination) ... so if they don't listen to the easy stuff
they certainly aren't going to list to anything big like war.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by MrDog


Lest we not forget how Pope Clement conspired with King Philip to wipe out the Knight's Templar who at the time had huge political and banking power.

All because King Phil didn't want to pay his debts, I believe it was more than that for wiping out nearly the whole organistation. Approx 7000 people at that time.


It is a little more complicated than that. First, the Templars probably had indeed gotten into Satanism. And second, they had also started going rogue, like the Mexican elite forces that went over to the drug dealers, making alliances with the Muslims against Christians. As for "wiping out nearly the whole organistation (sic)," probably unfortunately, they weren't nearly so successful, the Templars went underground and are an ancestor of most of the secret societies that you'll read about on this website. The pope and the kings of Europe had all the legal right and justification to suppress the Templars as the US government would today have to smash the CIA, as indeed JFK wanted to.



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
Say that the Catholic Church urged you to overthrow your respective governments, would you do it?
I'm unsure if I would.


I can't say I would.

Then again, I never really bought into the whole Catholic indoctrination that was pushed on me. I backed out before Confirmation.

As others have stated, I do not believe that they would ask to have it overthrown, and if they did, it might cause a rift in the church that would then split into two congregations, those who agree with the vatican and those who don't.

-O



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by MrDog
I believe The 4th commandment is you shall not break the Sabbath. I think you're refering to the 5th You shall not dishonor your parents yadayada blah blah.
Sorry for being pedantic.


You're not being pedantic, just misinformed.
The Catholics and Protestants' 10 Commandments differ:

Abbreviated Protestant Ten Commandments:
1 You shall have no other gods but me.
2 You shall not make unto you any graven images
3 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
4 You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5 Honor your neighbor
6 You shall not murder
7 You shall not commit adultery
8 You shall not steal
9 You shall not bear false witness
10 You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor

Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments:
1 I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2 You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3 Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4 Honor your neighbor
5 You shall not kill
6 You shall not commit adultery
7 You shall not steal
8 You shall not bear false witness
9 You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10 You shall not covet your neighbor's goods



posted on Feb, 8 2006 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
90% of American Catholics don't listen to the pope on issues as
simple as birth control. Yes, that's right. 90%.


Not listening to the rules of your religion. I don't think this is just a Catholic thing. I think it's a human thing. Every religion has it's followers that don't completely abide by the rules.
Imperfection abounds everywhere....because only God himself embodies pure perfection.
The Protestants didn't want to listen to the Pope at all, hence they broke from the original Church and formed their own way of Christian thinking. Read about the Reformation and why Luther and Calvin did what they did.... they didn't like the original laws of the Church so they changed them to suit their (man's, not God's) beliefs.



posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by Bobular

The Protestants didn't want to listen to the Pope at all, hence they broke from the original Church and formed their own way of Christian thinking. Read about the Reformation and why Luther and Calvin did what they did.... they didn't like the original laws of the Church so they changed them to suit their (man's, not God's) beliefs.


Medieval Roman Catholicism wasn't following the "the original laws of the Church." The Protestants tried to go back to primitive Christianity, they failed for reasons like thinking Augustine and his predestination was going far enough back. Eastern Orthodoxy is closer to "the original laws of the Church," even Rome's theologians admit this, but their position is that Eastern Orthodoxy hasn't kept pace with the improvements that have come through the continued working of the Holy Spirit.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by Paul of Nisbis]



posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 07:49 PM
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From what I gather The Roman Catholic Church gets it's doctrine from the ancient Church of Babylon. They have the same/similar symbols and have the same holy days.

I can't remember where I heard this though sorry for not backing it up.



posted on Feb, 9 2006 @ 09:21 PM
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Might have been the DaVinci Code.

Many religions borrow images and practices and whatnot and give them their own significance.

I remember reading a lot about that in Dan Browns Langdon books.

The obvious one for Christians is Zeus. One can argue that the image of Zeus is what many artists based their pictures of God on during the enlightenment.

-O



posted on Feb, 10 2006 @ 03:15 AM
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Originally posted by Bobular
The Church would never do that because one of the laws covered under the 10 commandments means to obey the laws of your government. In the Catholic Catechism it's covered under the Fourth Commandment: Love Thy Neighbor (the main objectives being honor your parents, your family, people in legitimate positions of authority, love for your country, human life, human sexuality, the property of others, and the truth.)


While the Catholic Church might not come outright and state that the people of country should overthrow their respective government, the Church certainly made no bones about hiding the way it felt towards the Soviet Union. During the reign of Pope Paul VI, the Pope worked very closely with the C.I.A., exchanging information in an effort to destabilze the U.S.S.R. During the reign of the last Pope, Pope John Paul II, it was also very publicly known that the Pope "strongly disliked" the Soviet Union -- especially where it concerned Poland. In fact, the Popes' support towards the Solidarity Union, in it's efforts to destabilize Poland and the Soviet Union's hold on this sattelite country could be easily construed as asking the Polish Catholics (of which nearly all are Catholic) to defy and overthrow their government.

I am a Catholic. If I were living in an oppressed country, espeically one that actively persecuted Catholics, I would take any papal comment urging defiance of such a regime or even outright rebellion to heart. Of course, there are many factors in this. However, the regime would have to be similar to that of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany before I would follow such a papal command. The government would have to be clearly oppressive and would have to be persecuting others unjustly.



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