A question on the "powerdown" claim, page 2
Pages: <<  1    2    3  >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 0 times


reply posted on 8-2-2006 @ 03:36 PM by Jack Tripper
Originally posted by LeftBehind
Where's the evidence for two tons of explosives being all that was needed?

Or is this just accepted as truth because it's from Jones op/ed peice.


As posted in the other thread I have contacted Dr. Jones about how he came to that figure and here is his reply:


The Aladdin Hotel in Las Vegas, built in 1963 as the Tally Ho, about a 18 story structure, 1100 rooms "was leveled in a matter of seconds with … 600 pounds of gelatin-based dynamite." (p. 75) Date: April 27, 1998, 7:30 pm. Contractors: LVI Environmental Services and CDI (Controlled Demolition, Inc.)

Helen Liss w/ the Loizeaux Family of Controlled Demolition, Inc., Demolition; The Art of Demolishing, Dismantling, Imploding & Razing; Black Dog & Leventhal. New York.



Scaling to the size of a tower gives roughly 4,000 pounds.



Likewise, the Seattle Kingdome of over 120,000 tons of concrete (more than either Tower) was felled using 4,700 pounds of explosives:



• “During loading operations, CDI …placed more than 4,700 lb. of explosives in critical locations to control the fall of the structure and reduce vibration. “
www.controlled-demolition.com...


also:


• The Danish newspaper Berlingske Tidende, the

• leading conservative paper in the country, published an interview with the explosives

• expert Bent Lund, who pointed out that fire alone could not have caused the collapse of

• the twin towers. He estimated that about a ton of explosives must have exploded inside

• the buildings in order to bring them down in this way. (Berlingske Tidende, September

• 12, 2001; Wisnewski 138; quoted in www.reopen911.org...)



Plus you must realize how silly it is to doubt that 4,000 lbs would be sufficient when you think it was acheived with ZERO lbs!


reply posted on 8-2-2006 @ 11:39 PM by Jack Tripper
Originally posted by LeftBehind
Like I responded in the other thread Jones number has nothing to do with reality, and shows his complete ignorance of how demolitions work.

(110/18)*600=Nearly 4000

Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how they figure it out at Controlled Demolitions Inc..


What are you talking about? That is NOT what Dr. Jones said! He compared the amount of explosives it took for other buildings and estimated an approximate weight! How far off could it be? 11 people in 11 trips? 12 in 12? 20 in 20???? No matter how you look at it is feasible to be done within a few weeks or months by operatives that have unlimited access and resources.

If you know so much more about controlled demo then debunk him. How many pounds would it take?



And while your right, I do think that it fell without any explosives, but I'm not the one saying that every single floor had exlosives like the 911eyewitness "cannonball" trajectory.


What? First you mischaracterize Dr. Jones' claim now you blatantly lie about 911eyewitness dvd claims? Do you think that it's not obvious that you are being deliberately deceptive? How on earth does hundreds of tons of steel being ejected in a parabolic arc equate to explosives on "every single floor"??? That claim was NEVER made in 911eyewitness, or by Dr. Jones or anyone in the truth movement that I have heard. It's fine if you want to claim you disagree with the truth movement but lying about the assertions in order to make it easier to disagree with them is pretty low.


Nor am I claiming that vast amounts of extra energy were required.

What is silly, is claiming that all it needed was 17.5 Gigajoules more energy considering the huge amounts released when the collapse began.


What is silly are your deceptive debate techniques.


[edit on 8-2-2006 by Jack Tripper]



reply posted on 9-2-2006 @ 12:31 AM by HowardRoark
Originally posted by Griff
Just to put my 2 cents in. We had a guy come in the other day and re-route our server in our office. We didn't have to get a permit, drawings, or even permission from the building owner. Does this have anything to do with what we are talking about? About as much as the power down is false because of no permit claim. Just saying. Not that I absolutely believe the demolitions in the building theory but there is definately something fishy going on.


In New York, according to
this, yes, you would have needed a permit. Does that mean that you will get into trouble? Probably not. Does this sort of thing happen a lot? To a degree, yes. I've heard a few horror stories about building inspectors that have red tagged an emergency generator/UPS installation because the contractor failed to get the proper permit. This usually happens with inexperienced office managers. I doubt that that would have been a fair characterization of the WTC building management. To have a construction project red tagged because the contractor failed to get a building permit would have been career suicide for the building manager involved.

In any case, lets look at the original claim again, shall we:

From: "Scott Forbes" cottforbes2002@hotmail.com>
To: skylax@comcast.net
Subject: Official Ver[si]on of 9/11 - new info
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:35:12 +0000

To John Kaminski,

I was pleased to read your article "The Official Version of 9/11 is a Hoax"
... Please note some other facts. My name is Scott Forbes and I still work
for Fiduciary Trust. In 2001 we occupied floors 90 and 94-97 of the South
Tower and lost 87 employees plus many contractors.

On the weekend of 9/8,9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2,
the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical
supply for approx 36hrs from floor 50 up. I am aware of this situation since
I work in IT and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that
all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brough[t] back up
afterwards. The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling
in the tower was being upgraded ... Of course without power there were no
security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers'
coming in and out of the tower. I was at home on the morning of 9/11 on the
shore of Jersey City, right opposite the Towers, and watching events unfold
I was convinced immediately that something was happening related to the
weekend work ...

I have mailed this information to many people and bodies, including the 9/11
Commission but no-one seems to be taking and registering these facts. Whats
to hide? Can you help publicise them?

Please feel free to mail me.

Scott Forbes


Clearly he is talking about something more substantial then a simple reroute. To me, "cabling
in the tower was being upgraded" indicates that new cables were being installed. Furthermore, anyone who is familiar with high rise shafts and chases will realize that any penetration into a shaft, chase or raceway spanning multiple floors has to be properly firestopped afterwards. All of these things involve work that most definitely would require plans, permits and inspections.

All of this boils down to three possible scenarios.



  1. The powerdown was genuine, and legitimate Some electrical work occurred in the building. The was no connection between this and the 9/11 attack. There is a paper trail somewhere detailing the work and who was involved.

  2. The whole story is a hoax, and no paper trail exists because it never happened.

  3. The powerdown was genuine, but it's main purpose was a ruse or a cover to install explosives. This scenario, however, involves either an improbable number of co-conspirators, or a paper trail that was created in order to legitimize the activities. I think that this scenario is totally improbable and unrealistic.





    [edit on 9-2-2006 by HowardRoark]


reply posted on 9-2-2006 @ 02:25 AM by LeftBehind
Originally posted by Jack Tripper
That is NOT what Dr. Jones said! He compared the amount of explosives it took for other buildings and estimated an approximate weight!


Your right that is what he did. He made a very simplistic comparison based on arbitrary numbers.

Controlled demolition is a very exact science and Jones shows that he knows nothing about it by making such comparisons.

You can't just scale it up and automatically assign a number for it. Different buildings require different methods. It is disingenuous to just "scale it up".



Originally posted by Jack Tripper
How on earth does hundreds of tons of steel being ejected in a parabolic arc equate to explosives on "every single floor"??? That claim was NEVER made in 911eyewitness



Actually that's exactly what they claim.

www.truecastdesign.net...

This Law of Projectile Motion experiment illustrates that heavy steel debris was ejected upward and outward in a parabolic arc by the massive explosions in the middle section of the North Tower. A genuine collapse would have occurred much more slowly due to the resistance of supporting floors and all debris would move downward, falling close to the side of the tower.


Oh, I'm sorry, they didn't say every single floor.

Just the entire middle section of the north tower.



Originally posted by BSbray11

The energy behind the top 13 WTC1 floors falling onto an old man or something would of course be huge considering the amount of damage that would be done to the car.

The energy behind the top 13 WTC1 floors falling onto 97 heavier WTC1 floors is another issue. And there was no room for acceleration; all resistance, all the way down, and yet those miraculous 13 floors pulled it off without so much as slowing down.


Sorry my friend, but a gigajoule is a gigajoule, and your comparison has no bearing on that.

They still use the same units in both situations, and the upper floors are still creating massive amounts of energy.



[edit on 9-2-2006 by LeftBehind]
Pages: <<  1    2    3  >>    ^^TOP^^



9-11 lecture at Basel University, Switzerland.
  Posted 12 days ago with 14 member flags
9/11 Actors re-visited
  Posted 6 days ago with 12 member flags
Wikipedia categorizes 9/11 truth as \'denialism\'
  Posted 17 days ago with 11 member flags
Building Collapses in Rio
  Posted 13 days ago with 6 member flags
new film "Human the film (2012)" covers all the bases and more!
  Posted 7 days ago with 6 member flags