Iran's New Anti-Aircraft Missiles

Iran’s defense minister launched the domestic mass production of a new shoulder-fired air defense missile Feb. 5, a development presented as a major boost for the Islamic republic’s armed forces.

The defense ministry said in a statement faxed to AFP that the Misagh 2 missile was “capable of tracking and destroying aerial targets that fly at low altitudes and in the blind spot of radar systems”.

The ministry said the “advanced missile” could also be used for “electronic warfare”.

..........

Iran is already believed to possess older Soviet-made SA-7 shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, as well as several other high altitude SAM systems.

The country is also thought to have laid its hands on U.S. Stinger missiles supplied to Afghan anti-Soviet fighters during the 1980s, and defense analysts say Iran may have worked out how to produce its own equivalent.

Such devices are useful in forcing aircraft to fly at higher altitudes — and therefore in the view of radar systems and prone to interception or attack by ground-based systems.

In December, Russia also agreed to sell Iran 29 TOR M1 mobile surface-to-air missile defense systems in a deal criticized by the United States.

www.defensenews.com...

This is believed to be a copy of chinese QW 2 anti-aircraft. They have either managed to reverse-engineer the weapon or they are producing it under a license.

The QW-2 or Qianwei (Vanguard)-2 is a new generation of Man-Portable Air-Defense system (MANPADS) missile. The QW-2 is characterized by passive homing, high portability, and infrared guidance. The system is designed for ground combat troops to use against airborne threats such as helicopters and low-flying aircraft.

Effective Range: 5000m
Maximum altitude: 3500m
Reaction time: 5 seconds
Maximun velocity: Mach 2
"Fire and Forget" Infrared seeker
Missile weight: 11.32 kg
Warhead weight: 1.42 kg
Storage Life: 8 years

www.china-defense.com...

In any future wars, it will certainly boost iran's assymetrical defence. Iranians just simply hide in the caves in the mountains and target helis, low flying aircrafts. not very low flying, the average height of the mountains in the western part of iran exceeds 3000 m (10000 ft).

if these weapons gets into the hands of insurgents, iraq will become a hell for helis.

as the first text mentions, it forces the aircrafts to fly over 20000 ft, makin them vulnerable to high-alttitude long range sams such as s300. Iran has a few locally built long range sam, one a copy of s300 but with a shorter range. so in an israeili strike on iranian nuke facilities, israeili planes have to fly high over western mountains making them vulnerable to long range sams.

Any thoughts?

nice
if the US should invade Iran and try to do another Iraq
there will be one diffrence after the iranian army gets disbanded
insurgents will be better armed and in larger numbers.

Great information NR! Informative and with very little propaganda.

Bodrul, great segway into your anti USA rantings that you magically seem to be able to integrate into any thread regardless of the topic.


In the fourth picture down, in the upper right hand corner, is that Fidel Castro? Looks just like him…

Sure does resemble it, but all manpad look alike.

P2,

>>
Iran’s defense minister launched the domestic mass production of a new shoulder-fired air defense missile Feb. 5, a development presented as a major boost for the Islamic republic’s armed forces.
>>

More idiots trying to act like men by following in the footsteps of the terminally corrupt they secretly envy.

>>
The defense ministry said in a statement faxed to AFP that the Misagh 2 missile was “capable of tracking and destroying aerial targets that fly at low altitudes and in the blind spot of radar systems”.
>>

Radars have no 'blind spot'. It's a misnomer. CW radars, especially those on masts, have been able to spot targets right down in the clutter, to line of sight, since 1973. At which 'point' you simply swing over a high power illuminator and tell the missile to run down the bearing differential until it collides.

All /long/ before Doppler notching was an issue as indeed, the radars LIKE high lateral speeds as they actually help lead rate adjustments.

Now, ultra high range gated PRF, systems extend this ability to tracking with good cell definition sufficient to pull the target even out of a nominal beamed condition, just on the 'built in' sweep rate of AESA based antennas.

>>
The ministry said the “advanced missile” could also be used for “electronic warfare”.
>>

That's cool, but I have a hair dryer that can be used to scare cats. Context defines truth. Vagueness bespeaks lies of translation.

>>
Iran is already believed to possess older Soviet-made SA-7 shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, as well as several other high altitude SAM systems.
>>

Snort. How slow and low do you have to be going before you can be caught by a Grail anyway? Is a C-130 good enough?

The fact is that Iran continues to model it's defenses around U.S. and/or Western systems and Chinese integration. Yet for all this, their 'high altitude capable' HAWK was greatly outscored by RBS-70 MANPADS systems which were more or less unjammable and a heckuva lot easier to bring to bear on the battlefield (hello RT, goodby SAM).

>>
The country is also thought to have laid its hands on U.S. Stinger missiles supplied to Afghan anti-Soviet fighters during the 1980s, and defense analysts say Iran may have worked out how to produce its own equivalent.
>>

Idiots.

You wait until you can see the threat and you have already lost the battle in a PGM biased war. Indeed, just to see an F-16 /in the chute/ on a DTOSS run is to see it flat plate after it's bombs have come off. If you want to try and 'guess' where the ingress lane is going to be on a 6-8nm standoff lob with GBU-12 or 38, be my guest. OTOH, if you are going to chase it back upstairs, you not only had better have a lot more moose-is-loose impulse than the Stingers we sold to the Dushmen. But also a definite wish to see Allah before your family has grown up. Because Mr. Viper To You will face his fate 20-30 seconds and 20+ expendables after you get your virgins.

>>
Such devices are useful in forcing aircraft to fly at higher altitudes — and therefore in the view of radar systems and prone to interception or attack by ground-based systems.
>>

/No/ Weeleee?!

The problem still remains that they are called 'MISS-iles' for a reason. One shot, win or lose, is a helluva way to play the defense.

You want to beat lolo airpower, you must do one of two things:

1. Carry the (initial surveillance) detection threshold over whatever local horizon your enemy can kill you at.
2. Launch your weapon under LOAL conditions.

Of course if you were all that an a bag of Mohamed-with-bomb-on-his-heads, you would have realized how utterly STUPID it is to ask your gun bunny's to carry, let alone employ, 40-50lb 'handheld' rockets in any kind of numbers. And that you 'might as well' pay for that weight in jet fuel and a microturbine and flickout scissor wings able to PRE LOFT the round to altitude. So that it can both attack the 'high' threats with more than a middle finger. And creep forward from offset launcher teams to 'cover' infantry units without having to ask a back to carry a weapon that is only good for employment once it's user is already been shot at.

But then again, I forget, this is just a startup presentation. Kind of a 'and nnow that we can produce MANPADS, you'd better buy us off or we'll flood the world terrorist market' kind of a schtick.

>>
In December, Russia also agreed to sell Iran 29 TOR M1 mobile surface-to-air missile defense systems in a deal criticized by the United States.
>>

Russia would sell it's mother if it meant money. Welcome to venture capitalism gone amok. How does it feel to be a hypocrite of your own 'democracy in action' system?

>>
The QW-2 or Qianwei (Vanguard)-2 is a new generation of Man-Portable Air-Defense system (MANPADS) missile. The QW-2 is characterized by passive homing, high portability, and infrared guidance. The system is designed for ground combat troops to use against airborne threats such as helicopters and low-flying aircraft.
>>

Gee, why not accoustics and day-TV? It would be a lot simpler to do and a lot more effective against HIRSS protected threats.

>>
Effective Range: 5000m
Maximum altitude: 3500m
Reaction time: 5 seconds
Maximun velocity: Mach 2
"Fire and Forget" Infrared seeker
Missile weight: 11.32 kg
Warhead weight: 1.42 kg
Storage Life: 8 years
>>

Since RBS-70 was an 8km slanted system and Starstreak a 10km slanted system _over a decade ago_, what are you trying to prove? That you can't hit a fast mover at range and over 20,000ft. Now that all our systems are so biased with high altitude capable lase and 3rd/4th generation thermal wells?

OTOH, what I don't see is an AN/PAS IR sight. Does this mean you are m replacement for batteries and coolant and a working IFF/Pelengator type system? Also no? Well shucks, I guess you're gonna have /all kinds/ of luck engaging those night time operators now aren'tcha?

Of course, since we really know where all your 'high technology' is gonna end up, the question is whether or not you have included a 'this way forward' arrow to ensure proper use.

>>
In any future wars, it will certainly boost iran's assymetrical defence. Iranians just simply hide in the caves in the mountains and target helis, low flying aircrafts. not very low flying, the average height of the mountains in the western part of iran exceeds 3000 m (10000 ft).
>>

MANPADS have an absolute (density) as well as mechanical (slant out) range. You go much over 20,000ft and you end up running the tiny-weenie controls out of aeropower.

>>
If these weapons gets into the hands of insurgents, iraq will become a hell for helis.
>>

No. We will just do what we should have, 5 years ago, and dump ALQ-212 as a 'complete system' while proceeding with the AAQ-24/Viper headed 'clipon' package like the MH-53 and AC-130 now use. Coupled to drop-fire weapons and integral MAWS from altitudes of 3,500ft or better, and we will see the weapon coming, defeat it with DIRCM and store the launch point as a TADS target of interest.

Blowing away any and all speeding vehicles leaving the scene with Viper Strike, APKWS or similar 'don't have to dive to pucker your behind' weapons.

>>
as the first text mentions, it forces the aircrafts to fly over 20000 ft, making them vulnerable to high-alttitude long range sams such as S300.
Iran has a few locally built long range sam, one a copy of S300 but with a shorter range. so in an israeili strike on iranian nuke facilities, israeili planes have to fly high over western mountains making them vulnerable to long range sams.
>>

Snicker. How far can Popeye Turbo go again? Was it 250 or 350km? What about those 1,500km sublaunched cruise missiles eh?

Fact is, I /seriously/ doubt if the IDFAF can reach Iran with anything less than Jericho, even their F-15I's are just too short of legs. They would certainly never survive another Osiraq run, even if we let them fly for free over Iraq.

Which doesn't mean that they won't 'get you'. Probably with the quiet agreement if not approbation of the rest of the world and your utter humiliation at 'seeing it coming and STILL not stopping it'.

Indeed, it would be more appropriate to ask why the ENTIRE CIVILIZED WORLD doesn't want arabs and muslims who kill and are butchered /over freaking cartoons/ to have nukes while we don't mind the hyper paranoid Jews doing so.

Duuuuh, unstable psychotic killers vs. mafia like businessmen? One would level the world to prove it's 'fundamental' point. The other would steal your zipper to own your jewels.

Gee thanks, I think I have enough hands to protect 'my property'. But I don't see anybody giving Iran just cause to have 3,500km Shahabs with 100KT tips. Not with Iraq out of the picture.

Not so long as they continue to stand as the principle Mister Moneybags sponsor of terrorist organizations throughout the Mid East.

>>
Any thoughts?
>>

Nah, I prefer to run purely on instinct, you?


KPl.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by ch1466]

Originally posted by ch1466That's cool, but I have a hair dryer that can be used to scare cats. Context defines truth. Vagueness bespeaks lies of translation.

I think the blindspots to which they were refering were the areas completely blocked to fixed location radars, such as behind mountains. Of course, attempting to employ manpads against anything faster or quieter than a helicopter could prove an interesting challenge. Still, Somolia taught us that one must never underestimate the creativity with which people might employ thier weapons.

Originally posted by ch1466


Gee thanks, I think I have enough hands to protect 'my property'. But I don't see anybody giving Iran just cause to have 3,500km Shahabs with 100KT tips. Not with Iraq out of the picture.


[edit on 7-2-2006 by ch1466]

then what gives anybody the right to hold nuclear weapons? anyways Iran doesn't claim to possess nukes.

Daedalus3

>>
Then what gives anybody the right to hold nuclear weapons? anyways Iran doesn't claim to possess nukes.
>>

Iran should not parade around a cart full of yellow cake with two techs taking rads and a big 'look what we can do!' grin then.

Shouldn't /need/ FIVE nuclear research facilities when wind and solar power are available as easier, less dirty, alternatives. Shouldn't be afraid to show just-cause as to why the IAEA is not allowed to fully inspect (or they to fully document) any and all purchases on the arms 'black market' with express utility for nuclear weapons.

Shouldn't need long range Shahabs when conventional warheads don't buy them much as the only equivalent 'city wars' response that can be earned in a war on Israel or Europe is nuclear.

Look at this webpage-

72.14.207.104...:nayk5gckYf4J:www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/%3Fentry%3D10009_Islamic_Blood_Ritual+Shia+holiday+cut+scalp&hl=e n&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

And realize what it is that Ashoura means to /Westerners/ who see a child cut and bloody faced. 'Because Dad wanted to'.

And then wonder at Muslims who get -so carried away- that they start riots and burn buildings and GET SHOT for what a cartoonists makes a caricature of. Muslims who want the man who did the drawing DEAD 'because he insulted a prophet'.

Albet behind a bearded smile of 'but we don't suggest you try' (wink wink)-

www.littlegreenfootballs.com...

When you look at images and veiled threats like the above, you start to understand how /very/ far back in time their understanding of 'what the good book says and what I do are separated by centuries of social change' reality check.

Indeed, we never see it here but imagine _waves_ of people marching through the streets, thousands at a time, with scalps cut almost to the bone in a near mob hysteria of herd-motion, constantly dabbing towels to **prevent** clotting. Sweating and screaming and bobbing up and down. like they were in the midst of some apoplexy as much as transcendancy.

Often these are people carrying toddlers who _DON'T UNDERSTAND_ and are screaming their lungs out as they bleed too.

And then decide whether this is a 'deeply religious' society whose morals you trust.

Read _While America Slept_ or _Shadow Wars_. In those two books Iran is shown to be THE sponsor for terrorism in the Middle East. Not Syria (mechanics), not Libya (morons), not Palestine (manipulated fools).

JUST IRAN.

They are the money men for almost 70% of the known Islamic terrorist groups. Groups which they sponsor because they don't feel we will come and get them. Groups whose actions include Embassy Bombings which killed /hundreds/ of _other Muslims_. Groups which did 9/11.

Consider this, year before last, the brother in law of the man who owns Al Jazeera television network wrote his weekly column _in his own newspaper_ in which he said: "We are being tarred and feathered by the world as terrorists. And they are right, because _90%_ of the known terrorist incidents of the last decade are directly about or involve as participants, Muslims. We MUST train our youth better than this or we truly will be the pariahs of the civilized world."

This is not me. But me paraphrasing a man who owns one of the ten most read newspapers in the Arab world. A man now living a guarded life with multiple threats made against his whole family for speaking an unwanted truth.

CONCLUSION:
You asked what country it is which deserves nukes. I will tell you it is the nation with the economic mass sufficient to /lose a lot more than Iran ever had/ if it missteps. A unity of people which has proven that it does not seek it's own annihilation, even if it means sparing an enemy from sharing in it one dreadfully warm October. As they came like skulking assassins to preempt the peace.

THAT nation, a nation which lives by treaties knowing it's enemy is not the least bit interested in the same peace with guarded honor.

A nation which in fact was willing to wait /fifty years/ for it's enemy to decide that there will never be 'a good day' to strike.

A nation like U.S.

If you want to allocate nukes to the UN as sole enforcer of a global peace, do so. If you want to craft legislation by which war itself is outlawed and all elements of a military and civillian leadership which indulge in it outside their own borders subject to 'crimes against humanity' _death penalties_ in the Hague. Then Do So.

But don't pretend that we have to put up with another 100 years of economically draining stupidity, watching the childish antics of a -country- (not a nation) that 'doesn't acknowledge' it's nuclear ambitions. Because in their prior bad acts and their current disposition, they prove themselves unworthy of trust.

Not simply in our eyes but those of the tremulous Euros and Russians.

IN GOD we trust. Everyone else we hairy-eyeball monitor. Iran would be well advised to keep this in mind should she wish to become more than an unwilling participant in a shootex precision cruise strike.

We don't have to use nukes anymore. And we won't let others have the means to do so solely because they lack the patience to develop the same precision conventional technology by which their discipline might be proven in the time they take to learn the art of war without WMD as bully politick means of spreading their terror more overtly.


KPl.

Originally posted by skippytjc
Great information NR! Informative and with very little propaganda.

I'm not NR, but thanx anyway

ch1466, I prefer not to respond to ur post,but bear this in the mind that when soviets went into afghanistan, afghan jihadits (talibans) got their hands on stingers, provided by fellow americans, and caused a major blow to soveits' air force. same story but this time in iran. iranians just simply jump out of their hideouts, and fire a missile. No chance for US planes to drop precision guided munition beforehand.

the maximum altitude for the missile is well over 11000 ft + the average altitude of western mountains exceeds 9000 ft, giving it a good 20000 ft to work with.

not to mention, it will make troops deployment to region very difficult once a war breaks out. any israeili attempt on iranian nuke facilities could simply escalate into a regional war against Israel. US has made it clear that it will jump in to defend israel (recent bush comments)

a few more pix





Here is a video of the missile, I picked up from an iranian military forum.
3 test shots

www.iran-economy.de...

Originally posted by proprog

Originally posted by skippytjc
Great information NR! Informative and with very little propaganda.

I'm not NR, but thanx anyway

ch1466, I prefer not to respond to ur post,but bear this in the mind that when soviets went into afghanistan, afghan jihadits (talibans) got their hands on stingers, provided by fellow americans, and caused a major blow to soveits' air force. same story but this time in iran. iranians just simply jump out of their hideouts, and fire a missile. No chance for US planes to drop precision guided munition beforehand.

the maximum altitude for the missile is well over 11000 ft + the average altitude of western mountains exceeds 9000 ft, giving it a good 20000 ft to work with.

not to mention, it will make troops deployment to region very difficult once a war breaks out. any israeili attempt on iranian nuke facilities could simply escalate into a regional war against Israel. US has made it clear that it will jump in to defend israel (recent bush comments)

a few more pix





Here is a video of the missile, I picked up from an iranian military forum.
3 test shots

www.iran-economy.de...

nice video mate and pictures. thanks. yes alot of people dont realise how dangerous these types of missiles are becuase the west hasnt faced these in a long time.these still have alot of use especially against gunship helicopters and low flying fighters that are trying to fly below radar to attack there target.

Misagh-1 was best at low-flying heli's but Misagh-2 resembles QW-2 with more improvements which should be good enough against both helis and aircrafts like transporters or attack planes.

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Bozorgh]

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Bozorgh]

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Bozorgh]

I find 11,000 feet a little hard to believe, but I'm no expert in the field of ManPADS. What I do know is they excel in denying the enemy CAS. So while they'd be of little use against a force comprised mainly of ground troops, they'd be quite useful in hindering the prefered doctrine of US fighting forces (Specificly Marines) which is based around the use of Close Air Support.

*edit* oh, and air mobility. Imagine how short the Movie "We were soldiers" would've been had the enemy been in possesion of shoulder launched SAMs.

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Travellar]

Proprog,

>>
ch1466, I prefer not to respond to ur post,but bear this in the mind that when soviets went into afghanistan, afghan jihadits (talibans) got their hands on stingers, provided by fellow americans, and caused a major blow to Soviets' air force.
>>

No.

1. Because the Soviets went into AfG with helicopters that were density and power limited in their ability to maneuver /even beyond/ the normal crippling shortcomings of rotary wing airpower.

2. They often flew straight line routes to targets /right over the heads/ of logistics trains in transit and showed no doctrinal flexibility in engaging popup targets.

3. They used rocket and bomb systems which began life as the old 57mm 'flower power' system (for the way a flower's petals unfold in the morning) and ancient FAB series (WWII) square-cylinder bombs which have the aerodynamics of dropped cement truck.

4. The Su-25 'German Product' eventually brought them up to the level of early 1980's smart-plane-dumb-bomb dropping even as the introduction of AS-9/14 weapons by 1986 gradually improved standoff and point kills sufficient to let FAEs do the dirty work of butchering entire groups in particularly close quarters of some of the Afghan 'hills and valleys'.

5. The Soviets went in without Ispanka or sufficient flares. They never had a working MAWS. Never developed even non-coherent (QRC-84) directed countermeasures. They fought almost the whole war without exhaust suppression due to environmental and fatigue problems with the TV-117 engines (they flew them until the rotor tips clearances were so abraded by sand that they no longer could compress, then they replaced a few wheels until they did again and flew until the core combustor started burning through the case wall and they replaced that. Then they began using 'outside spec' fluids to keep the transmission full and hydraulics circuits full because it was too easy for Russian Soldiers to destill and consume the existing supply of them.)

5. Despite all these logistical and doctrincal incompetencies, the Soviets in fact _won_ the war in Afghanistan. Just as we WON the war in Vietnam. By denuding the countryside of it's recruiting power and home + hearth food stocks in a massive campaign of forced relocation. Into the cities or out of country.

It took the cooperative sedition of her people to believe that NOT striking, in division (= wing) or greater level numbers at the camps across the Pak border would not completely rout the enemy while turning Islmabad into an instant slum of panicky twice-refugee'd hicks.

We did similar things, twice, in Laos and Cambodia and each time it gave us an entire YEAR of freedom of ops without 'invasion'. Something our own mentally retarded civillians took to mean we were doing something wrong 'across the way' in giving the poor Viets an intermission of peace with which to recatch their breath if not rebuild their lives.

And each time we failed to do so, we ended with Tet or Easter.

If the Soviets had acted as the Paks were chattering-teeth afraid they would (as indeed the Soviet armed forces had previously ALWAYS DONE, from Hungary to Czechoslovakia and onwards). As indeed the Soviets NEEDED to do to make a two way endrun on the PG through cheery ol' Iran and a 'warm water port' (Karachi, Ormara, Gwadar) they would have done for their own Afghan allies what we chicken-excremented our way out of a promise to do for the Viets.

Bring peace to a nation beset by anarchist forces largely composed of drug dealing warlords on the Smugglers Road.

i.e. Not only did the Soviets not lose until they were told to. But the wreckage of that nation and the subsequent inhumane actions that have devils-creche sourced themselves to there, are only /marginally/ offset by the certainty that our own actions in support of barbaric Dushmen merely kept the Soviet busy in a BOB hellhole rather than taking Western Europe during our 'window of vulnerability' (1977-1985).

Because the latter would have meant the end of the world.

>>
Same story but this time in iran.
>>

No. Because without proper FAADS and posted/vehicular mounts to support heavyweight batteries, IFF, cooling and tracking systems, these handhelds are only useful against airliners and improperly equipped slow military assets. None of which are now over Iran as Iranian Ababils have been over Israel.

In the hands of PLO terrorists.

Nor is the notion that they will defend you from MISSILE attack on your nation's burgeoning nuclear threat valid because these are missiles too shortranged, too lacking in night-fire/blind-fire capabilities and too limited in their below-horizon tracking ability (oh yes, 90% of MANPADS cannot track below the horizon) to form a legitimate 'passing over my head, I turn to point and it's gone over the far rooftop' defense.

Against conventional cruise missiles. Which are almost certainly what the Israeli's will use whether the UN Security Council sits on or passes the IAEA recommendations for 'sanctions'.

i.e. By your very reference to AfG (as a doctrinal justification as much as operational paradigm) the Iranians have created a terror weapon to use on national forces outside the needs of their own defense because they are worthless for anything else.

And given her historical roots of terrorism, Iran has nothing to hide behind as noble as we did in 'freeing the religious extremists' from the bad ol' bear.

>>
Iranians just simply jump out of their hideouts, and fire a missile. No chance for US planes to drop precision guided munition beforehand.
>>

And you're a military moron. Because these systems are fired to perhaps a total slant of 12-15,000ft and during that time may take upwards of 20 seconds to make their run. OTOH, the likelihood is much higher that it will be the MAN ON THE GROUND which doesn't see the airframe shooting at him because said airframe can deliver _over the top ceiling_ (i.e. straight up, no out) of his MANPADS. And as much as 15 miles away from where he is standing i.e. a 'slant' value of 91,200ft.

So that, by skulking like cowards in the rocks, you only ensure that whatever 'fear of guerilla MANPADS' you generate is sufficient to make us hit the targets we CAN see, (buildings and structural features) from distances at which you cannot possibly respond. But which /might/ cause a bomb in headwinds to miss it's aimpoint.

Great Job Pablo. Are you gonna at least evacuate the civillians from around the effected target areas?

Because while the attempt to inspire paranoid persecution complex of 'anti-U.S. everything' is incredibly banal, it does a great job covering up the obvious which is that we don't want to give YOU, a nation of terrorists and bag men for terrorists, the opportunity to own weapons systems which put your twisted mindset of 'deny the real and postulate the incredible' behind nuclear ballistics.

Since it's obvious your denial tactics underline a socially juvenile pyschology by which you fail to understand the difference between being caught and being wrong for trying.

That difference being inherent to the realization that if we strike BUILDINGS full of nuclear materials research, we are confining the damage to one area of your benighted country. If you strike us with nuke missiles 'at some point in the future', whether or not you are obliterated as a people in counterstrike doesn't matter.

All that matters is that you have (yet again) exported terror to the innocents in OUR charge. Without even the nobility to make it a public admission of desire for such capability beforehand.

IRAN DOES NOT NEED NUCLEAR POWER GENERATION.

>>
The maximum altitude for the missile is well over 11000 ft + the average altitude of western mountains exceeds 9000 ft, giving it a good 20000 ft to work with.
>>

Which is why U.S. targeting pods have been upgraded or replaced with systems that have diode pumped (no CO2 'arcing') lasers and 3rd or 4th generation thermal wells while using weapons that can be sling-bombed from 12-15nm out (GBU-31) out with no further requirement for designation.

Which is why the Israeli's have at least two types of standoff missiles that can be fired from 60-180nm away in the air launch version and over 700 in the sublaunch variety.

Even as your understanding of linear math fails terribly when you realize that it's not the base or the leg it's the _hypotenuse_ of weapon slant which counts. 'One mountain over' from where you need to be.

Something all the more critical if your terrain index is actually read more like this-

www.askasia.org...

In which an 'impermeable shield wall' rises up to but a few truly tall peaks and then only from one axis. Not covering the southern approaches. Not covering the barren east at all. Such that 20% of Iran is under 2,000ft elevation, 70% is under 5,000ft elevation and NONE of the nuclear centers are truly elevation protected.

Now add night time conditions and no AN/PAS TI sights or alerter radars/IADS link.

Now add (if the strike is manned at all) effective MAWS, expendables and ultra low density air as your four inch square control surfaces try to bite non existent Q at too low a Mach number to overtake a Mach .9 airframe moving through the air another 10,000ft over your ceiling topout.

And we're right back to Iran developing the weapon which she saw the U.S. use to help a _fellow muslim country_ defeat an outside invader with 1970's CAS tactics. For her own terrorist ends. Covering up for that with shaken baby rattle speeches about our 'imminent invasion' and how these missiles will stop it.

Right.


>>
Not to mention, it will make troops deployment to region very difficult once a war breaks out. Any israeili attempt on iranian nuke facilities could simply escalate into a regional war against Israel. US has made it clear that it will jump in to defend israel (recent bush comments) a few more pix
>>

And that's what Iran wants. The ability to foment terror and regional warfare /whether or not/ they lose or even 'own, yet' their own nukes to a 90% certain _cruise_ strike which they know for a fact they cannot prevent.

Like a little kid screaming it's head off to get attention for an offense that has not and will not come. Until they do something stupid.

Is it any wonder that even your fellow PG'ers chose a madman like Saddam over your calculated paranoia? You make the Russians look good.

If Iran wanted to keep the U.S. out of the Gulf, she could do better rebuilding bridges with her neighbors to deny basing access and build a pan-Arab/Persian political power base. Rather than attempting to hold a counter value capability as a 'defensive' system leverage now that Saddam's Iraq is gone.

Because Israel is too small to sustain a nuclear conflict without ruinous irradiation of her populace no matter 'who wins or what is hit'.

And as soon as she makes that 'I know, let's burn civillians, wholesale!' motive clear _by having a nuclear program_. Along with a desire to do things cheap and dirty with MANPADS and Shahab instead of a REAL military (layered force construct) to defend what is rightfully hers. Iran again firmly plants herself on the side of terrorist exporter, not statecraft, driven politics.

If you are so young as a people that you need to sustain your nationalism exceeds your persective of the longer view by which NO 'affront to dignity' is worth the end of the world as YOU know it.

You are not ready for nukes.

And we should not have to risk the mass of true nationhood 'hoping' that you learn restraint as you go.

Iran will not be invaded. Vicious as you are it is easier to avoid confronting you than to crush you. Who are you so afraid of that you would maintain your own image-in-isolation before us rather than be accepted as an adult in an adult world without the punk-artifices of leather jacket and nose ring assassin weapons?

>>
Here is a video of the missile, I picked up from an iranian military forum.
3 test shots.
>>

All of which look to be under 5,000ft AGL. Whoopy.



KPl.

if iranian weapons are so crap why does your nation israel keep crying to the united nations every week. did you ever hear so much # come out of someones mouth the soviets were told to lose the war to this day the americans think they won the war . like osama bin laden said [ the americans are the most cowardly of creachers] the same in iraq they wont get out of their tanks and fight they love to hide behind their hi tech weapons so the iraqi just have to play the same game and blow them out. i cant wait to see that new manpad in action their will be blackhawks fallen out of the sky if were lucky 12 in each one . if the u.s thinks it has a big body count now before it invades iran a 100.000 anti-tank mines crossing the boarder will give them something to think about. the same old double standards iran not able to have anything while israel has [200 atomic bombs and counting ] and every vx nerv gas you can think of as well as the bubonic pleage in 155 mm shells that could wipe out the planet . CH1466 IS REALLY A MEMBER OF A.I.P.A.C THATS WHY HE HIDES HIS NAME ALL AIPAC MEMBERS HAVE DUEL PASSPORTS ON THE PASSPORT IT HAS THE UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL they get paid for spreading their poison everywere on the internet.

[edit on 12-2-2006 by bosnianwarrior]

Originally posted by bosnianwarrior
if iranian weapons are so crap why does your nation israel keep crying to the united nations every week. did you ever hear so much # come out of someones mouth the soviets were told to lose the war to this day the americans think they won the war . like osama bin laden said [ the americans are the most cowardly of creachers] the same in iraq they wont get out of their tanks and fight they love to hide behind their hi tech weapons so the iraqi just have to play the same game and blow them out. i cant wait to see that new manpad in action their will be blackhawks fallen out of the sky if were lucky 12 in each one . if the u.s thinks it has a big body count now before it invades iran a 100.000 anti-tank mines crossing the boarder will give them something to think about. the same old double standards iran not able to have anything while israel has [200 atomic bombs and counting ] and every vx nerv gas you can think of as well as the bubonic pleage in 155 mm shells that could wipe out the planet . CH1466 IS REALLY A MEMBER OF A.I.P.A.C THATS WHY HE HIDES HIS NAME ALL AIPAC MEMBERS HAVE DUEL PASSPORTS ON THE PASSPORT IT HAS THE UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL they get paid for spreading their poison everywere on the internet.

[edit on 12-2-2006 by bosnianwarrior]

this is so true americans have become too confident about there weopons becuase they face incompentent 3rd world enemies like iraq,somalia,vietnam etc.... with no way to fight back. also they come in groups US,Britain,france,israel,germany,norway,sweeden,japan etc... vs 1 country.
this has given them over confidence becuase they down play the help which they recive from there allies while forgetting it was the SAS that went on the SCUD hunt in iraq etc...

america is rapidly loosing allies france,germany didnt help in this gulf war and soon in a iran war other countries might also not help and condering iran has about 500 times more ballitic missiles then iraq and is 3 times larger then iraq and also has alot of trees,mountians forests etc... america can also hunt its own scuds this time becuase i hope britian doesnt get invloved. then we will see how suceccful american forces are.

1) it is highly unlikely any nation will be in open warfare with Iran anytime soon, unless Iran does something VERY deliberate to start such a war.

2) Europe has far more reason than the US to raise concern about, or act upon, Iranian nuclear and missile programs. This can be proven with a globe and a piece of string.

3) Bosnian Warrior, with a name like that, I'd expected you to post something useful, like how Milosovik was infinately more clever in his use of anti-aircraft weapons than Saddam, just by keeping them turned off and hidden. Instead you'e proven that the ignore function on this board actually DOES serve a useful purpose.

4) We were discussing the capabilities and implications of Iranina ManPADS, not anti-US dribble. Post something intelligent, like the possible implications of teams of up to 5 launchers posted along the access routes to likely target zones. Or other clever and original use of such weapons.

Originally posted by Travellar

(2) Europe has far more reason than the US to raise concern about, or act upon, Iranian nuclear and missile programs. This can be proven with a globe and a piece of string.

thats just fear-mongering. europe has nothing to worry about from iran unless europe attacks iran.

the iranians are not crazy. there government has loud mouths but are not as dangerous as people make them out to be.

Originally posted by iqonx
thats just fear-mongering. europe has nothing to worry about from iran unless europe attacks iran.

the iranians are not crazy. there government has loud mouths but are not as dangerous as people make them out to be.

LOL, I seem to remember people saying the same thing about Hitler in the 30's.

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by iqonx
thats just fear-mongering. europe has nothing to worry about from iran unless europe attacks iran.

the iranians are not crazy. there government has loud mouths but are not as dangerous as people make them out to be.

LOL, I seem to remember people saying the same thing about Hitler in the 30's.

were talking about Iranian people not hitler himself which he was a leader and as iqonx was saying the iranian ''leaders'' intend to have a big-mouth for politic purposes.

Originally posted by Bozorgh

Originally posted by rogue1
LOL, I seem to remember people saying the same thing about Hitler in the 30's.

were talking about Iranian people not hitler himself which he was a leader and as iqonx was saying the iranian ''leaders'' intend to have a big-mouth for politic purposes.

LOL, yes they have big mouths until they act on their words As I said just like Hitler and the Nazi's.

Back on topic. Just watch the video of the Iranian MANPADS, it really is a basic design, it leaves a very smoky trail. All really modern MANPADS as used by Russia and the West, use smokeless propellants for the obvious reason. That reason being ( for those who it isn't obvious ) is that a smoke trail is like a finger pointing to the source.